Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus

Originally posted by oliveoil
You do realize that Jesus is speaking to his Disciples who were Jews and not you, right?

This is quite pathetic.

It's about like saying: "Do you realize that when Jesus said keep the commandments, he was speaking to his disciples and those who could hear him, and not to you? "

If these are the best responses you can muster up, you would be better off not speaking at all. You make yourself look ridiculous and petty.






[edit on 12/23/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by oliveoil
You do realize that Jesus is speaking to his Disciples who were Jews and not you, right?

This is quite pathetic.

It's about like saying: "Do you realize that when Jesus said keep the commandments, he was speaking to his disciples and those who could hear him, and not to you? "

If these are the best responses you can muster up, you would be better off not speaking at all. You make yourself look ridiculous and petty.






[edit on 12/23/2009 by badmedia]

No whats pathetic is you actually think he is talking to you.I hate to tell You,You are not an apostle.
I don't know who's ego is bigger yours or Leo's.





[edit on 23-12-2009 by oliveoil]

[edit on 23-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil


What are you talking about? He is talking to him. He's also talking to me and you and anyone else with two good ears.

Who do you think the few who find life are, oliveoil? Just the apostles from two thousand years ago?Lol

You are telling people they are false and you are also questioning what others are being taught by Gods Holy Spirit. Like Jesus said, you have no idea who has or has not been born of spirit and water.

You said a few pages back, that there are two ways to interpret scripture. I referenced in my post, that there are actually four ways in Judaism, after all...... Jesus is Jewish. Would it be fair for me to question why the Holy Spirit hasn't put it into your heart to learn..... such simple things about Jesus? No, it wouldn't.

Even though, I don't agree with badmedia concerning Paul and I don't believe in reincarnation like LeoVirgo, I see nothing Christian in the way you are talking to them.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Simplynoone - I'm sorry, I don't think you understood what I was saying. Just because I said LeoVirgo's dream was wonderful and brought up the fact, that a few of the people who have near death experiences come back with stories that they were made aware of past lives - doesn't mean I believe in it.

In fact, reincarnation goes against my personal belief and in my opinion goes against the teachings of Jesus. And if something doesn't line up with his teachings, I'm not likely to head down such a path.

If it was myself, who had been shown a scarab, I wouldn't have even considered that it meant "reincarnation." The scarab in Egyptian symbology does mean reincarantion but in Christian symbology it stands for resurrection, or rejuvination. The symbols are the same but their meanings are completely different.

Here is why it doesn't work for me. There are two resurrections. One for the elect and then one for everyone. If a person has lived more than 1 life - who will they be at the final judgement? It doesn't work. But if for some reason it does exist, I honestly don't want to come back. Why do I feel I would have a choice? From my studies, of NDE's people quite often are given the choice to come back or stay. The problem is nine out of ten times, they want to stay, then they are influenced into coming back. They are given a vision of a weeping spouse or child, or shown that a child will go through something awful sometime into the future and show how by going back it will help the child through their time of trouble. Love is used to influence them. On the same hand though, if we have our faculties in tact on the other side, surely there is another option, than coming back in a different body and watching the decay process all over again - if that would happen to be the deal.

This physical realm is beautiful but it is in a process of decay at all times. From the very moment we take a breath, we begin to die. I believe we can lay up treasures now for a place where no moth comes to destroy.

That is my hope.

Originally posted by oliveoil
No whats pathetic is you actually think he is talking to you.I hate to tell You,You are not an apostle.
I don't know who's ego is bigger yours or Leo's.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light , not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?

You are a child of god. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We were born to make and manifest the glory of god that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

-Marianne Williamson

Good stuff, have a nice day.

.See thats the point. He uses the Bible or I should say the Gospels to stress his own ideological view.

Is that not how Christians normally do it ? Use the bible to stress their own ideological viewpoint ?

We are speaking of the teachings of Jesus correct. Please show me any other text besides the Gospel of Thomas where Jesus himself is quoted.

I admit I dont dwell deeply on Christian literature, mainly because I disagree with the interpretation of the Messiah concept in the Christian religion. My personal search on the topic ended when I decided Yeshua was a possible Messianic candidate, however as a rule of thumb I follow a later Jewish teacher.

However maybe youll find www.thelostbooks.com... interesting, maybe you wont, I'm providing it merely as a starting point for you should you prove curious to go and see what other texts talk about Yeshua and revelations of his students (he had 13 at least didnt he, but there are only 4 gospels, that seems strange to say the least).

The word Gospel means "Good News" what do you think the good news was all about. The teachings of Jesus alone?

I have no idea honestly, I have not read the Gospels enough myself to give a full discourse on them, that is why I came to look at this thread from people who had.

The word word is referred to as Jesus who is God.I was referring to the written word.The Bible.

The written word as you perceive it is very new. My point was that back in the times of Jesus, the idea of Torah (the book of creation, what was the bible) did not just extend to the documents which are now days called Torah. When Jews speak of Torah they mean all of existence, not just the books of Moses. From my point of view (because that is the way it is taught the jews) I would expect that to have been Jesus' point of view as well. After all Jesus did not write ANY of the New Testament as far as I know, nor did he call for its physical creation (please provide source if Im wrong). He merely taught and expected his students to spread the word, which is fairly standard for the prophets of the time.

The way I would have it? You have no clue what the Bible says about people who have never heard the word of God past, present and future do you?

I know what my portion of the bible says about it, but no I dont know what the New Testament take on it is, given that hell turned up during the New Testament and Heaven became a place loyal humans go to when they die I expect its not good.

You say this and show me no proof.

I really dont want to hunt for proof of Jesus stories outside the four gospels, they are out there, have a look through the link I provided earlier to find some, look into the spread of Christianity in Africa and the Far East for others. I am not terribly interested in hunting down proof of Jesus as Messiah, because from my point of view the Messiah hasnt been fufilled yet.

The reason I am in this thread is I wanted to see if someone here could show me otherwise.

Your relationship should be with God. Jesus is God.

So are you, so am I, so is BM. However I do not accept Jesus is God in the way you do, and from my perspective that veneration of Jesus is Idolatry, which is what turns me off Christianity so much.

Out of politness I'll tell you I follow a form of Jewdiasm as taught by Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. I'm not here to argue for or against Jesus, this thread is about meeting the real Jesus, I have found the conversation between his followers to be educational, but there isnt a lot of agreement.

What the thread needs is some more mainstream points of view. Maybe some Greek Orthodox, some Protestants, a Child of Nazarath would be nice though I dont think there are any on ATS.

that there are actually four ways in Judaism, after all...... Jesus is Jewish. Would it be fair for me to question why the Holy Spirit hasn't put it into your heart to learn..... such simple things about Jesus? No, it wouldn't.

Sorry to butt in, but there are 72 ways to read the same piece of scripture, according to Jewish tradition.

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Can you name what you expect the Messiah to do/be?

I really don't have an opinion on the Messiah in such a way. I just know that what Jesus says is true - if understood properly.

When I see "Jesus", I see much more than the idolization you speak of(which I agree with 100%).

I really don't think I've ever heard a Jewish opinion on the topic. And I usually find myself in agreement with Jewish people more so than Christians.

Well first of all let us say that the term as we are using it in this conversation is for the "King Messiah" the final one who will come and bring heaven on earth.

There are missions that where promised to the jewish people that the Messiah would accomplish, such as the lost tribes being regathered, the whole world following the law of the one god, world peace, the reserruction of ALL the dead / merging of the worlds, the barren lands of earth flowing fertile.

I dont like Wiki but the other sources I would send you to are Chassidic sites which have their own problems so for a brief jewish look at the messianic principle en.wikipedia.org...

If you ask why do I think Jesus was not THE Messiah. I cannot tell you he wasnt, I think he probably could have been, the Jews however werent worthy themselves at the time and the world as a whole not ready and so that oppurtunity for "peaceful resolution" was missed (according to jewish tradition there is a "hard way" and a "easy way" for the end times to occur).

Indeed he may well yet turn out to be the Messiah, should he return to finish the job (which according to certain Jewish sects could be expected of the Messiah, that he returns from the dead after many years) however in my view the job of THE Messiah has not yet been accomplished.

That is Earth is not a reflection of the kingdom of heaven, there is war still, there is hunger, famine, death, all these things where promised to be removed IN THIS WORLD by the passage of the Messiah.

Now to add confusion Jesus was definately a messiah, there is another jewish tradition which holds that a messiah is born into each generation, acting as a spiritual leader for the people, or thats not quite right, with the potential to be the true spiritual leader, should the people and the person prove worthy at that time. However that is generally considered a deeper topic of conversation, and of course you wont get many Jews admitting such a thing in regards to Jesus, that is because Modern Jewdiasm is a reflection of the failed religion of that Pharisee's that caused Yeshuas death in the first place. There are however older forms of Jewdiasm still practised, and a revival of certain practises through the Chassidic movement.

Theres also the discussion regarding the Moshiach ben David and the Moshiach ben Yosef, two Messiahs, and then a third which could be considered the Anti-Messiah. Thats all going to detract massively from the topic at hand though.

I'm ranting a bit so Im going to stop, its a huge topic.

Bottom line, no world peace, no universal acceptance of the one god, for me means job not complete. However I strive to find a personal relationship with God, and pray that one day soon we all as a universal people find the way to make this earth the reflection of heaven it should be. For that we will need a leader (people are sheep its true sadly), when that leader comes with the true spirit of the lord in them, then whatever their name I hope I can recognise my lord in them and prove worthy to serve in the task ahead.

I distrust any man who would tell me that I must go through them to find God, because I know for truth that God is within me and all around me. Im not sure if Jesus said that though, or if its something the Church have said in his name. The Jews of the time didnt like Jesus because he was revealing deep secrets to the Goyim, which is only fair but was not tolerated, amusingly even though those secrets are now written in plain text in the new testament they have often been misinterpretated, in my mind the most fatal being the idea that Jesus is anymore God than anyone else. We are all God, we all have the potential to reach further up the spiritual ladder. There are those who are gifted beyond the norm but we all play the part we were made to play.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

By the way the Jews do generally accept that Jesus existed. There are two reactions normally within jewish religious circles when talking about Jesus.

The first is to ritually mutate the name in an attempt to write him out of history in a sense.

The second is to recognise that whoever he was, that he was a Rabbi who knew what he was talking about, but he was going about things in a way the establishment didnt like.

Modern Jewdiasm is really just as much a perversion as Modern Christianity, and Jewdiasm was already perverted back then sadly, but like all the religions the gems of truth still sparkle brightly to those with eyes that can see.


[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

The idea of the Trinity is odd to me as well. I feel its part of why Christians feel that Jesus needs to literally be an Avatar of God as opposed to a mortal leader.

In Jewdiasm you have the holy spirit still, which is feminin, the Shechina. You have male aspects of god, and above them both you have the unified total unknowable godhead.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Well first of all let us say that the term as we are using it in this conversation is for the "King Messiah" the final one who will come and bring heaven on earth.

There are missions that where promised to the jewish people that the Messiah would accomplish, such as the lost tribes being regathered, the whole world following the law of the one god, world peace, the reserruction of ALL the dead / merging of the worlds, the barren lands of earth flowing fertile.

Lost tribes would be the Islam, Christianity and Judaism correct? Because interesting is that Islam also awaits that. Christianity does as well, but there version of it is "Christianity becomes 1 world religion", rather than a unification through understanding, and an awakening. As Jesus would say - works done in sin.

How would you classify that? Would a 1 world religion be what you see? Because when I see where it talks about "Jesus" coming and ruling the earth, I see that to mean in understanding. Meaning, the truth will rule the world, rather than the lie as now, and all people will follow the way -keeping the commandments as in the understanding of Jesus, rather than eye for an eye.

I don't think 1 world religion is needed or is very good. Because I think what it really means is that the entire world will be thrown into idol-ism even more than now. But I think understanding of the holy is universal and available to all, and each religion is just each cultures(which was once way more separate) way of expressing it.

I dont like Wiki but the other sources I would send you to are Chassidic sites which have their own problems so for a brief jewish look at the messianic principle en.wikipedia.org...

Thanks, but I'd rather have a discussion on it. I can't follow up with questions on writings, or try to gain a better perspective on what is being expressed. Discussion is my preference - such is the old way and with good reason.

If you ask why do I think Jesus was not THE Messiah. I cannot tell you he wasnt, I think he probably could have been, the Jews however werent worthy themselves at the time and the world as a whole not ready and so that oppurtunity for "peaceful resolution" was missed (according to jewish tradition there is a "hard way" and a "easy way" for the end times to occur).

Yes, when people say "Jesus died for your sins". I see that more honestly as "Jesus died because of your sins". Both true in their own ways. But, the truth of the matter is that if men did not sin, then Jesus would have not died. Thus, they were obviously not ready.

However, Jesus still does many things, and shows people the way etc. In his death, he makes the ultimate statement that the ritual sacrifice doesn't even begin to capture(and is there to cover up IMO). And that is you do not fight evil with evil. If you fight evil with evil, then you yourself become the evil.

He expresses this in words before hand, telling people do not fear that which can kill the body, but that which can kill the soul. And then he speaks of how if a man tries to save himself, he in the process loses himself. And the way which seems right, but really isn't.

So by his example he shows that to take up evil is not that way, that it is better to die in the flesh than to become the evil yourself. When evil fights evil, the greater evil wins. Evil grows in this manner.

Because look at what they get people to do. The formula is the same and has been since before the time of Jesus. Make people fear or think their lives are in danger, and so in response to that they will allow and support all kinds of evil things. This is of course the path to death and destruction.

As both sides are doing evil things, then both sides play the evil for the other side. This only fuels things, as each side in hypocrisy points out the evils of the other side, while ignoring their own evils. The only way to stop is for people to look at things from both sides, then they will see their own evil and they can fix it.

But those who seek power gain and keep power this way. And so as long as the people are manipulated, then the evil will continue to grow on earth and maintain it's status quo. This is in large part maintained by keeping people spiritually ignorant.

Indeed he may well yet turn out to be the Messiah, should he return to finish the job (which according to certain Jewish sects could be expected of the Messiah, that he returns from the dead after many years) however in my view the job of THE Messiah has not yet been accomplished.

I do not know if a being named "Jesus", or any of his other known names will ever show up. I do however have complete "faith" that eventually the truth and all those things Jesus represents will come. It has too. If it does not come, then mankind will destroy itself.

For some reason, I have known something since I was like 5 years old. It occurred to me that at the rate technology was growing that one day any man would have at it's fingertips enough "power" to destroy the world.

You can try and keep this "power" harnessed between a few/elite. However, this will only bread more corruption. As such power is always sought out by only those who crave the power. I think it is clear what will happen in that situation. This is basically in large part the way we live now. Such dangerous elements are kept out of the hands of people. Because we see what people do. If you gave every man that kind of power on earth today - tomorrow will never come. Still, as we can easily see now - even with that power in the hands of a few, it will just be used against the people and they will be put into bondage.

The only other alternative is to have a society of people who are trustworthy and would never do such a thing. This would of course have to be a "heavenly society".

So it has to eventually happen. Don't know when, but it has to one day. So, when I see that "heavenly society", I see a society where Jesus is the norm, not the exception. If Jesus had been the norm, then he would have not been killed - they would have been ready.

That is Earth is not a reflection of the kingdom of heaven, there is war still, there is hunger, famine, death, all these things where promised to be removed IN THIS WORLD by the passage of the Messiah.

Completely agree. If Jesus is such, then it is most certainly unfinished in terms of the earth. But, all any of us can really do is our part - be the change that is needed.

Now to add confusion Jesus was definately a messiah, there is another jewish tradition which holds that a messiah is born into each generation, acting as a spiritual leader for the people, or thats not quite right, with the potential to be the true spiritual leader, should the people and the person prove worthy at that time. However that is generally considered a deeper topic of conversation, and of course you wont get many Jews admitting such a thing in regards to Jesus, that is because Modern Jewdiasm is a reflection of the failed religion of that Pharisee's that caused Yeshuas death in the first place. There are however older forms of Jewdiasm still practised, and a revival of certain practises through the Chassidic movement.

I understand that within each religion you have elements who understand, and those who don't. I do not base opinion on those without understanding, so I understand what you mean.

The way the father taught me is that the messenger is just there to bring a message. That it is the message that is important, the messenger is just the vessel. This is why idolism is bad and how it blinds people. They focus on the messenger, rather than the message.

But I truly believe that every needs to meet/see the father for themselves and come to understanding. That will IMO be the purpose of any Messiah. You address this a bit later, so I'll respond there.

Theres also the discussion regarding the Moshiach ben David and the Moshiach ben Yosef, two Messiahs, and then a third which could be considered the Anti-Messiah. Thats all going to detract massively from the topic at hand though.

I'm ranting a bit so Im going to stop, its a huge topic.

Personally I think it's all related and on topic, as well as being a breathe of fresh air.

I have to continue the rest in another post.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Bottom line, no world peace, no universal acceptance of the one god, for me means job not complete. However I strive to find a personal relationship with God, and pray that one day soon we all as a universal people find the way to make this earth the reflection of heaven it should be. For that we will need a leader (people are sheep its true sadly), when that leader comes with the true spirit of the lord in them, then whatever their name I hope I can recognise my lord in them and prove worthy to serve in the task ahead.

You named your leader already. "to find a personal relationship with God".

What will get in your way are preconceived notions on what "God" is. In this manner, you will have to "become as a child". This means to become agnostic, and without "belief". A child is honest in their innocence. They don't pretend they know the color of the sky, they don't have existing beliefs on the color of the sky - and so they ask and seek the answer.

Because if you have "Beliefs" on what god is before then, then when "God" does not meet your beliefs - you will then reject him.

But you can not ask men. If you ask men, then you will get a man's answer. The answers will come from within. The answers will come in the form of understanding. All men can give you are things to accept(Psalm 82).

You named your leader, now it's just a matter of finding him so you can follow. You seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders, so I don't think you are far off.

I distrust any man who would tell me that I must go through them to find God, because I know for truth that God is within me and all around me. Im not sure if Jesus said that though, or if its something the Church have said in his name.

When Jesus says that, he is talking about the way, the truth and the life. Only by those things can one come by the father. Yes, Christians turn that into an idol and that is not at all what he meant. Jesus is not that shallow.

The only thing that could be of question there is: Does Jesus represent those things. And I would say without a doubt - yes. Like he says in John 10, if I do not do that of the father, then believe me not. And in the way I see the bible, he does. In the way Christianity presents it - no.

The Jews of the time didnt like Jesus because he was revealing deep secrets to the Goyim, which is only fair but was not tolerated, amusingly even though those secrets are now written in plain text in the new testament they have often been misinterpretated, in my mind the most fatal being the idea that Jesus is anymore God than anyone else. We are all God, we all have the potential to reach further up the spiritual ladder. There are those who are gifted beyond the norm but we all play the part we were made to play.

Yes, Psalms 82. Jesus says the exact same thing. It's amazing how Christians want to ignore than when Jesus is pressed about that, all he does is quote Psalms 82. It's also why his trial and such was unjust.

That said, I do think he was "more god" than others. But only because he was closer to god, and had more understanding than most etc. But it's really more a matter of 1 being awake, and the rest being asleep than in terms of "quantity". Jesus also says that everyone is capable of doing more than he did, another thing Christians will deny is possible.

You seem to have good understanding. I am trying to figure out why you do not know the father. It is somewhat odd to me. I can only think of the parable from Jesus of the sower. That saddens me. If you figured all that without directly knowing the father, then you seem more deserving than me - I didn't understand any of that until the father. Of course, I know that understanding only comes from the father, so you have heard him in many ways.

I wonder if it's just a matter of being born of spirit(realization of it). But you seem to have some understanding in that - is it from experience or from what you have been taught by rabbi's etc?

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
By the way the Jews do generally accept that Jesus existed. There are two reactions normally within jewish religious circles when talking about Jesus.

The first is to ritually mutate the name in an attempt to write him out of history in a sense.

The second is to recognise that whoever he was, that he was a Rabbi who knew what he was talking about, but he was going about things in a way the establishment didnt like.

Modern Jewdiasm is really just as much a perversion as Modern Christianity, and Jewdiasm was already perverted back then sadly, but like all the religions the gems of truth still sparkle brightly to those with eyes that can see.

If I were to choose a religion, it would probably be Judaism. But I would fall into that 2nd category. But it's kind of moot, as I would never formally join a religion, or follow their traditions. That said, I really enjoy discussing these things with Jewish people, and think it odd that Christians do not try to understand Judiasm better than however a preacher can manipulate it into it being "Talking about Jesus".

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
In Jewdiasm you have the holy spirit still, which is feminin, the Shechina. You have male aspects of god, and above them both you have the unified total unknowable godhead.

The furthest I was able to go was to the point where only 2 "beings" were in existance. Me and the father. I could not go beyond that point and still "exist". I believe that point is what you are talking about in terms to the unknowable godhead. That I find to be agreeable. It is impossible for any man to go beyond that point. It is "unknowable".

The feminin aspect - this would be in reference in Proverbs 8/9(among others)? The she "wisdom and understanding" who calls out to men. That is exactly what I see the holy spirit is. That is what I "heard", and that was when I was being taught etc. Although honestly I never really saw it in a gender type way, I can see why it is expressed as such.

That's why I quote those verses so much. They are IMO the basics of gaining understanding. Can't get the holy spirit, no chance on the rest.

Good stuff. Breathe of fresh air.

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Hello Messanger!

Its been nice having this other view point in the thread...and you have sparked a question in me, for you.

Can you explain to me in your own words why you feel we need a Messiah? What is there to do that we shouldnt have to do ourselves? Do you think God leads a mission for a special people and a special land? Do you think God really is worried about a separate 12 tribes of people and a Earthly land?

Im sure you sense that I dont lean towards the idea that God needs anything of Earth, and God would of never told men to take anothers land, especially through force. But if you have something that might make me rethink this I am willing to at least here it from someone not quoting a book *smiles*

In your own understandings....do you think the Jews were right and God told them to worry about such minute things? Such Earth bound things?

From my experience, God helps us cope, adjust, find contentment, gives comfort....I just dont sense that God is worried about a land here on Earth or a certain people above anyone else. I will be honest ...I think the pride of the people that took that land and killed others for it is still lingering and God didnt have a hand in leading such ways.

I see an evolving happening....similar to what some describe as the Christ Consciousness.....I would rather call it the 'Comforter'....but something is happening in the world today, its like there is a people born with this 'feeling' that the mainstream way does not sit 'well with the soul'. And these people are finding that online, they can share with others a joy in knowing a unconditional love that over powers all things they have ever known. Interesting times it is! Im just not a 'end of the world' person or 'Jesus will come with force and make everyone change' or 'judgment will be held even to those that had no reasons to believe in anything, for they were only comfortable with their logical mind'......which is when I go back to thinking....God had to of made more then one way as well as God has to be very understanding of what this world does to a soul and how our minds work with our senses to 'know' what we feel is reality.

Ahhhh good ol ramblin with coffee on Christmas Eve morn....you sparked me to think haha....even though I try not to ever say....I know in absolute but when sharing a belief it does seem to come out that way.

Dont get me wrong....I think we defiantly need leaders and others to weigh and measure our own stance and ways....but do you look at this Messiah as someone that is 'saving' us from our sins and forcing a new world order here that revolves around a Earth based land? Why would a perfect God come for just a certain type of people?

My best always
LV

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

What are you talking about? He is talking to him. He's also talking to me and you and anyone else with two good ears.

If you go to Matthew 10:5 it explains who Jesus is talking to crystal clear.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying

Who do you think the few who find life are, oliveoil? Just the apostles from two thousand years ago?Lol

of course not. Everyone who excepts and believes that Jesus died on the cross for their sins are the few who find life.

You are telling people they are false and you are also questioning what others are being taught by Gods Holy Spirit. Like Jesus said, you have no idea who has or has not been born of spirit and water.

Because the Holy Ghost taught the Disciples who believed that Jesus died on the cross for our sins.The op objects. How can the Holy Ghost teach one set of disciples one thing that teach another something totally contradictory?

You said a few pages back, that there are two ways to interpret scripture. I referenced in my post, that there are actually four ways in Judaism, after all...... Jesus is Jewish. Would it be fair for me to question why the Holy Spirit hasn't put it into your heart to learn..... such simple things about Jesus? No, it wouldn't.

Interpreting scripture is one thing however, the op is deviating from
96 percent of what is said.

Even though, I don't agree with badmedia concerning Paul and I don't believe in reincarnation like LeoVirgo, I see nothing Christian in the way you are talking to them.

I have said nothing that didn't need to be said.

I'm quite tired Ive been at the hospital for most of today but ill try and get around to answering you guys back as best I can later tonight.

reply to post by badmedia

Lost tribes would be the Islam, Christianity and Judaism correct? Because interesting is that Islam also awaits that. Christianity does as well, but there version of it is "Christianity becomes 1 world religion", rather than a unification through understanding, and an awakening. As Jesus would say - works done in sin.

Yes and No Ill qualify this a bit more in a minute. When Jews talk about the returning of the Lost Tribes, it is generally taken to mean that all the 12 tribes of Jews (most of which are lost to the exile) will return to Israel (the land). However it is open to massive interpretation and the details of what it means will vary depending on the sect you are speaking to. Certainly it is possible that through inter-marrige the lost tribes will be revealed to now be Christians and / or Muslims, Israel could very well be taken to mean a spiritual state of being rather than the land. Additionally there is of course the old family ties between the Jews and the Muslims because of Isaac and Ishmael. The relationship between the Jews and the Muslims is very complicated and there is no way I could do it justice in summary here.

How would you classify that? Would a 1 world religion be what you see? Because when I see where it talks about "Jesus" coming and ruling the earth, I see that to mean in understanding. Meaning, the truth will rule the world, rather than the lie as now, and all people will follow the way -keeping the commandments as in the understanding of Jesus, rather than eye for an eye.

I don't think 1 world religion is needed or is very good. Because I think what it really means is that the entire world will be thrown into idol-ism even more than now. But I think understanding of the holy is universal and available to all, and each religion is just each cultures(which was once way more separate) way of expressing it.

Now this is where I wanted to qualify the statement above. The returning of the Lost Tribes and the world coming to the worship of the One God is seen as seperate events. Why ? Because certainly there are people out there who are not Jews, and of course they are loved by God and deserve to know of this and to find spiritual understanding of their own. It is well known that Jews do not seek converts, why is this ? Some people will tell you it is because they are arrogant, that they consider themselves "The Chosen" of God and they look down on the Gentiles, but what people dont understand is what the Jews consider themselves "The Chosen" for.

There is a story told that before the world was created God approached all the spirits who would become the nations of the world, and to each in turn he asked if they would be willing to fufill all the Mitzvah (613 commandments of human kindness) in the Torah, to act as a guide for those seeking to draw closer to god, for good and for ill as an example in hardship and in bounty so that the whole world would see that the Lord will look after those who wish to know him, if they stay true in faith and understanding. The ones who agreed are the ones who would become Jews.

Simply put the Covenant between the Jews and God is that the Jews will act as the priesthood for the world, the Jews do not believe that the whole world needs to fufill all the commandments, because that is too much, humans where created to fufill their purpose and it is not the purpose of every man to spend every hour of their lives in holy ritual.

There are Seven Laws which the nations of the earth need to follow in order for the idea of universal understanding of God to have been fufilled. These are called the Seven Noahide Laws:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse (in jewish law there is no such thing as female homosexual intercourse due to the definition of intercourse).
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

It is acceptable for the nations of the world to have their own "religions" as long as they recognise the ultimate truth and the laws above are present. Indeed it is to be expected that Torah will be revealed to people in ways that they will be able to understand it.

Yes, when people say "Jesus died for your sins". I see that more honestly as "Jesus died because of your sins". Both true in their own ways. But, the truth of the matter is that if men did not sin, then Jesus would have not died. Thus, they were obviously not ready.

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But those who seek power gain and keep power this way. And so as long as the people are manipulated, then the evil will continue to grow on earth and maintain it's status quo. This is in large part maintained by keeping people spiritually ignorant.

All I can say to that section is yes absolutely that is true.

I do not know if a being named "Jesus", or any of his other known names will ever show up. I do however have complete "faith" that eventually the truth and all those things Jesus represents will come. It has too. If it does not come, then mankind will destroy itself.

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So it has to eventually happen. Don't know when, but it has to one day. So, when I see that "heavenly society", I see a society where Jesus is the norm, not the exception. If Jesus had been the norm, then he would have not been killed - they would have been ready.

I come to a similar conclusion, it is also why "the hard way" is now sadly the most likely way, because by my mind the only way the norm is going to be people who approach truely the way of Jesus and other great holy men is for a lot of the current cancer to be cut away.

Of course we can still get a big miracle, at any time God can choose to give us "the easy way" if we prove worthy, but sadly every day that passes it seems we are less and less deserving.

Ill be back for the rest later on... Ill get to you as well LV

edit to fix obvious errors.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by gYvMessanger]

What will get in your way are preconceived notions on what "God" is. In this manner, you will have to "become as a child". This means to become agnostic, and without "belief". A child is honest in their innocence. They don't pretend they know the color of the sky, they don't have existing beliefs on the color of the sky - and so they ask and seek the answer.

Because if you have "Beliefs" on what god is before then, then when "God" does not meet your beliefs - you will then reject him.

But you can not ask men. If you ask men, then you will get a man's answer. The answers will come from within. The answers will come in the form of understanding. All men can give you are things to accept(Psalm 82).

Very well said

When Jesus says that, he is talking about the way, the truth and the life. Only by those things can one come by the father. Yes, Christians turn that into an idol and that is not at all what he meant. Jesus is not that shallow.

The only thing that could be of question there is: Does Jesus represent those things. And I would say without a doubt - yes. Like he says in John 10, if I do not do that of the father, then believe me not. And in the way I see the bible, he does. In the way Christianity presents it - no.

Yes again I concur. However it is unfair to say the way Christianity presents itself. Christianity is an ideal, one which has like all large centers of power, been hijaked by men for their own reasons. Im sure you agree there are plenty of good Christians out there, indeed its a testament to Jesus' character that despite the corruption of the churches built in his name that the message of the holy spirit can still reach people who are truly faithful.

Also to qualify I am not accusing ALL clergy of being corrupt or deliberately misrepresenting God, I am merely saying it is not as simple as being able to place your trust in these men without question.

Yes, Psalms 82. Jesus says the exact same thing. It's amazing how Christians want to ignore than when Jesus is pressed about that, all he does is quote Psalms 82. It's also why his trial and such was unjust.

That said, I do think he was "more god" than others. But only because he was closer to god, and had more understanding than most etc. But it's really more a matter of 1 being awake, and the rest being asleep than in terms of "quantity". Jesus also says that everyone is capable of doing more than he did, another thing Christians will deny is possible.

Well there undeniably different levels of spirituality that is achievable by any given person. And people in a position such as Jesus was are at a very high state indeed, and the ultimate position which we are discussing in this topic would certainly be the pinnacle of such levels. As you say its not that these are out of our reach entirely, but they arent easy to achieve, some people are born that way or gifted at some time in their life in order to act as a light for others.

You seem to have good understanding. I am trying to figure out why you do not know the father. It is somewhat odd to me. I can only think of the parable from Jesus of the sower. That saddens me. If you figured all that without directly knowing the father, then you seem more deserving than me - I didn't understand any of that until the father. Of course, I know that understanding only comes from the father, so you have heard him in many ways.

My personal story regarding my changing relationship with the divine is probably interesting enough to be worth a telling here at some point, but I'm not inclined to derail the topic further with that and I'm too tired so ill skip. Maybe at a later date. I have absolute faith in the creator, but in a different way to most people. We have a relationship but it can get rocky at times, I have failed myself in many ways as well which strains things at times, at the moment is not one of my best times in terms of spiritual involvement, not in traditional terms anyway.

I wonder if it's just a matter of being born of spirit(realization of it). But you seem to have some understanding in that - is it from experience or from what you have been taught by rabbi's etc?

Yes and No, I wouldnt say it was because of prolonged experience with local level Rabbi's (I live in England for the record). I have spent a lot of time reading a lot of different spiritual literature, which includes extensive jewish literature and as I am a born jew I was able to speak with various Rabbis (via the net, forums, websites etc) on a fairly open level about fairly closed topics.

However I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit, and I have experienced things which have given me absolute faith in the existence of the creator and its closeness to everything. Equally I have grown massive disdain for organized religion (another topic in itself), this brings abouts confusion as to how to act, though I also fail at the things I am not confused about (such as acceptable behaviour in thought and word).

I have faith that if I continue searching, then in time I will be given the information that I need, and I will know it when it is recieved.

I dont believe the Jews have all the answers, certainly they have lost their way (in their own way), but they have a lot of old knowledge which is worth studying, if only to help keep "a holy frame of mind". This has to be studied with care though as Rabbinical Jewdiasm is the heir to the Pharisee's, and the laws / interpretations of man are not the truth just because a lot of people agree on them.