Seeking the advice and input of ATS members on an important issue...

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Oh cool, I like the fact that it doesn't link back to ATS.

Btw, for some reason I get a different page with the "www" in the url (like in my sig) and a different one (the one you linked above) without the "www."

Edit: Scratch that last bit, I had to, of all things, clear my browser. cause I had the site bookmarked from before the content went up. Carry on ...

[edit on 27 Nov 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Btw, for some reason I get a different page with the "www" in the url

Just hit "refresh" on your browser. The old page is likely still in your browser cache.

There will be no link to ATS as this is intended to be a "link-to" site for any small publisher that is as concerned as we are.

Good idea except how many of us have wanted to start an online petition with ATS as the "base of operations" only to have it denied by SO or other senior mods? Guess our reasons weren't good enough but once ATS' life is threatened, then it's ok.

Good luck ATS.

Originally posted by colec156
So another congress man becomes a money slave to big business.

I'm in, it's about time these elected idiots realised that they are there to represent the people and not just the interest in those who can give the biggest brief case of money.

BRIEFCASE is one word..... sorry, just had to correct you there

Hope ATS has many more years to run!!

reply to post by SkepticOverlord
As a graphic/web designer who works for a newspapers, I have to examine this from a different perspective. I spent $35,000 a year to attend a university, so I can fine tune my skills and abilities. My goal is to use such skills and advantages, so that I can create a better life for my family. When I see movies, music, and other media formats being lost to the web, I see money being taken out of a wide spectrum of arts.

Hardworking men and women work in-house and on the road to make a living on advertising, music, and arts. If we were to give 'third-party ad networks' our potential income, there would be nothing to gain from working in such fields.

Ultimately, you will no longer have movies, music, and art. Why? No profit to be gained.

"Above Top Secret" is a great place to visit, and it does promote our tradition for the freedom of expression. I don't see how you are entitled to paying your bills with money, which originally belongs to hardworking individuals who work in the arts.

What did you do 'for us' to gain that income, which you did absolutely 'nothing to have earned'?

If you are going to use the excuse of 'well I provide an outlet for the freedom of expression', I'm going to reply, 'you also have the responsibility of working to keep it open.'

Since this site is runned and maintained by volunteers, you are also getting another free source to run your site. Who do you actually pay for? If you are looking for money to stay open, you should rise and fall according to your own success.

If you want to keep this site open, hire your own sales team, pay your volunteers, and become a legit business. Don't ride on the backs of hardworking individuals who have spent the money and time to develop the arts, which you are getting free kickbacks from.

Originally posted by Pathos
Hardworking men and women work in-house and on the road to make a living on advertising, music, and arts. If we were to give 'third-party ad networks' our potential income, there would be nothing to gain from working in such fields.

I'm confused about the basis of your post.

How would you "give" the third-party networks your potential income? They're clear-houses for large numbers of ads from advertisers who have worked with agencies to create ads... by the very people with the talent you described.

Following your train of thought, if this proposed legislation were to go through, we'd witness a rather significant decline in the only segment of the advertising industry that is growing -- online advertising. If that were to happen, there will be a trickle-down as a result of less advertising resulting in few jobs for creatives.

(Not to mention that the thousands of small-budget advertisers would suddenly have no viable method for online advertising.)


As for having our own sales staff... just as it is for us and the overwhelming majority of independent websites, it's just impossible.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord
Was "Above Top Secret" created from your personal need to contribute something to society?

Why should we pay for something, which you want to provide to the public for free?

Would that not also include you being responsible for the free service you provide, and any other expense you revolve from providing such free service?

The proposed legislation is not an attack on free speech. Its an attack on access to free income.

[edit on 27-11-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Pathos
Was "Above Top Secret" created from your personal need to contribute something to society?

For the most part, yes.

Why should we pay for something, which you want to provide to the public for free?

No one is asking you to pay, and it is our intent that it remain free.

Would that not also include you being responsible for the free service...

TANSTAAFL (look it up)

Any web site is free and accessible to users only in so far as the expenses of the enterprise are covered by whichever means provides revenue. At this moment in time, advertising networks are the only viable revenue source that covers the majority of our operational expenses... which are significant due to the volume of our traffic.

I support the freedom of the internet and protection of the right to exist. If this legislation passes it will be the elimination of out last bastion of freedom of thought we have left. I have already been writing letter to my congressman and senators. I am backing ATS 100%

Of course I would help petition. I could even coordinate some phone banking. Phone banking is a really useful tool when contacting senators, all you need to do is read off of a script. Senators really do care about people who take the time to call and leave them messages or write them -hand written- letters, much more than a simple e-signature. So there is another option.

If the worst case scenario happens, I am sure we could find another way to generate revenue, and even maybe create some temporary jobs in the process. Whether this means making a pay-for e-zine or maybe expanding our online store, to removing the "no-ads" reward (I wouldn't mind giving up mine), to asking for donations more strongly, or even maybe forming some partnerships.

I am sure that we will think of something. Let me know how I can help.

Originally posted by Pathos
Why should we pay for something, which you want to provide to the public for free?

Who says anyone was paying for anything? Provide the post where says he wanted ATS members to pay for this site, otherwise, you're just speculating.


[edit on 27-11-2009 by technical difficulties]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Pathos
Was "Above Top Secret" created from your personal need to contribute something to society?

For the most part, yes.

Why should anyone have to pay you, through third-party advertising, for something that you have volunteered to do for free?

No one is asking you to pay, and it is our intent that it remain free.

I was talking as a graphic/web designer at that point. Sorry that I was not clear.

TANSTAAFL (look it up)

Any web site is free and accessible to users only in so far as the expenses of the enterprise are covered by whichever means provides revenue. At this moment in time, advertising networks are the only viable revenue source that covers the majority of our operational expenses... which are significant due to the volume of our traffic.

...so far as the individual who owns the site can cover such expenses. If you are relying on a third-party ad network, without doing any other work (such as hiring a sales team), your website should fall according to your efforts. Advertising networks are not your only source for obtaining an income to stay open. Your problem is that you don't know how to obtain offline and online advertising through other means without going broke. That comes from hard-work and experience. How do you think printed newspapers and magazines stay open? I know. Do you?

"Above Top Secret" is open to the public under your freewill, and it will rise or fall from the efforts you implement through your freewill. No advertiser should have to loose money to someone who didn't earn it. Outside of going into Google Sense, typing in your credit card, and information, what other type of work did you do to obtain advertising?

The proposed legislation is not an attack on free speech. Its an attack on access to free income. Big differences between the two.






[edit on 27-11-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Pathos

How do you think printed newspapers and magazines stay open? I know. Do you?

Do you?

How's that working out for them?

After reading some of the responses, to my post, I can't help but wonder if some of you belong to the entitlement movement.

Instead of putting in the long hours necessary to become a success, the entitlement movement believes they don't have to work for anything. "Give me.. Give me... Give me.."

What happens when there is no income to be made from working in the movies, music, or arts? If no one is going to make a living off of them, they are no longer going to exist. Advertising is the same thing. Its art that generates an income for a service.


[edit on 27-11-2009 by Pathos]

I'm down for it - count me in - will it be only fir ATS users or anyyone who wants to participate? that way could link others to it...

Originally posted by Pathos
After reading some of the responses, to my post, I can't help but wonder if some of you belong to the entitlement movement.

Instead of putting in the long hours necessary to become a success, the entitlement movement believes they don't have to work for anything. "Give me.. Give me... Give me.."

What happens when there is no income to be made from working in the movies, music, or arts? If no one is going to make a living off of them, they are no longer going to exist. Advertising is the same thing. Its art that generates an income for a service.


[edit on 27-11-2009 by Pathos]

and another interesting point - a lot of the "free" content available on the web is available because someone else paid for it - and that someone is the porn industry - it is the porn industry that drives the web - all of their advertising which runs into the billions makes it possible for those of us who love to do things online out of passion for the cause or the art, rather than the bottom line - there is a always a cost even if we don't recognize it...

And here at ATS - we are not asked to pay for membership - and we go at each other or post interesting info for free but it's not free to the owners..so get with the program ATS users - opt for the petition....

I haven't read the whole thread, not even half of it so if I missed a point or two my apologies - just don't have the time today to deal with it - just ate left over turkey and now have to take a nap as the triptiphan sets in

Absolutely start a petition. Our voices need to be heard. it's the proverbial slippery slope.......

reply to post by SkepticOverlord
I went through your online references. I love how you spun this to say something completely the opposite, so you can gain support to keep your free income rolling in. If I didn't know any better, I would have sworn you were taking lessons from lobbyists. Up until this point, I had some support for what you were doing here. Now, I don't know what to think.

Keep it spinning.


Gee...

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I wonder...

[edit on 27-11-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord



im on board, count me in

I'll sign a petition The I.R.S. is not allowed to collect twice, or require the post office to pay twice.
My question is: If I receive traffic tickets on the highway from a cop, why does my mailbox fill up with letters from lawyers. I don't get tickets on the internet, I get them on the road. I got four last month, minor infractions, but I got 6 letters from 6 different lawyers.
It just seems like there is a huge double standard occurring. This isn't right. I'm sure this occurs on a much larger scale as well, and in many other sectors. I might not know what I am talking about, and if this doesn't make sense then please ignor my reply.

The internet is free and so is the postage. We need real legal layers to work all this out.