Why won't God heal amputees?

Originally posted by moocowman

Oh for goodness sake a couple of women that appear in some books written after the alleged event are proof that the event occurred.

The gospel editors couldn't even get their story straight, about this alleged incident so why on earth should anything else be considered an authentic eye witness account.

What a croc

28) How many women came to the sepulcher?
John 20:1 Only one woman went, Mary Magdalene.
Matthew 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" (Jesus’ mother) went.

29) Mark 16:2 It was sunrise when the two women went to the sepulcher.
John 20:1 It was still dark (before sunrise) when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher.

I'll grant that you probably didn't bother to research this yourself, in lieu of accusing you of pure dishonesty. This is patently false.

No translation that I am aware of reads "when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher." If it does it is in error. This is a pure deception and reflective of the sort of lies found on many of the popular atheist websites.

To unpack this piece of sophistry lets refer to the ESV translation. John's gospel is written for a specific purpose [ presenting the deity of Christ] and John explicitly writes that he intentionally does not provide many details in lieu of his focus. However from the actual text your alleged contradiction is completely debunked.

" Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb." (Jn 20:1-3)

Note verse one never uses "alone". In fact Mary's quote says "and we do know where they laid him." The original Greek text uses οἶδα the word for "know" in the first person plural . The plural clearly revealing that John was aware that it was a group of women not Mary singular.

So you see these silly little canard Bible contradictions are easily revealed as ignorance at best and blatant deceptions at worst. The question then falls back on you, because you are propagating them , so are you ignorant or deceptive? Answer for your own benefit. I think I am done here - you only deny God because you have a hard heart.









[edit on 11/26/2009 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by moocowman
.....I'm open to all possibilities dude...

Hey!

I'l take that as a step in the right direction...

Happy Thx-giving, well, at least it is here

Your buddy, OT

PS: Still argueing interpretation? Remember lesson number #1, " a text without context is a pretext!" hermenutics my man

reply to post by reasonable


*chuckles* I could care less what you or he believes. And for at least the fifth time now, I have not stated my beliefs so kindly stop assuming. Just because I am defending their right to believe what they want does NOT mean I am one of them, you are acting foolishly to assume otherwise.
My problem is with you deciding to post logically fallacious arguments in an attack against those who do not share your beliefs and there IS a danger in that. A great deal of the death and strife that has happend throughout history has started with exactly the same type of arguments you now joyfully and single mindedly engage in. And I will oppose that as NONE of you silly monkeys be you Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Pagan, Taoist, Buddhist or what the frick ever have the inside track on the truth though the zealots, like yourself, refuse to think critically enough to acknowledge that basic little fact.
My ONLY interest is in attempting to talk some sense into all of you in a obviously futile attempt to avoid those things that have happend in the past. Intollerance like what you exhibit is the enemy of mankind NOT whatever philosophy/belief system/ideology you choose to be your enemy and your philosophy/beliefs/ideology is NOT some magic super thought pattern that supercedes mankind's darker nature and history has shown that A THOUSAND TIMES, yet we still have people like you that delusionally think otherwise.
All you are doing is antagonising for the gratification of your own childishly fragile ego with your logically unsound arguments, refusal to think critically and childish assaults on ideas you can't even understand much less argue against coherently.

[edit on 26-11-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by reasonable
whywontgodhealamputees.com...

A brilliant read and I challenge any christian to debunk it -in fact it already takes into consideration many scenarios of christian response. So then.. what do christians think of this? How much more proof could someone need?

For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.

Now create a prayer circle like the one created for Jeanna Giese. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the soldier, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him. Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the soldier's legs overnight, in the same way that God spontaneously and miraculously cured Jeanna Giese and Marilyn Hickey's mother.

If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.

It all depends if it's in God's plan for the person. God isn't a robot. And then what if people really don't believe? That's not God's fault, that's theirs.
While Jesus was on the earth, He didn't heal everybody.
Your argument that you got from somewhere else is still no excuse to not believe in God.
Thanks,
TT

"God" does not intervene on Earth.
So many things have been prayed for, that have never happened, that the meager few that DO happen simply do not make sense to attribute to "God".

Think of how many people pray daily for things, that never happen.

"God" simply does not sit on a cloud, and make all asked prayers happen.

End of story.

reply to post by PublicDefenseCorp


That reminds me of that part of the move "Bruce Almighty".

Let's examine both sides of this:

Why God WON'T heal amputees?

and

Why God WOULD heal amputees?

Let's start with would...
1) Because He can.
2) Because we want Him to.
That about sums it up.

Now why He won't...
1) Why do many people refuse to feed stray animals? Undoubtedly more will come and beg for food as well. If you deny one, I am sure that one feels left out and has to be left wondering "Does he/she not love me the same?" Also, people often times take miracles for granted and do not give the praise to Whom the praise is due. We are egotistical by nature.
2) Amputees bring glory to God. We all face challenges and when we excel in said challenges and give the glory to God it pleases Him. He is proud of all his children when they pass through the veils of temptation and suffering and welcome His loving embrace.
3) The meek shall inherit the Earth. Their struggle is great and so is their reward.
4) God's will is the only will that matters. We have no say-so in what should and shouldn't be.
5) Miracles are not "get out of struggle free" cards. They're used at specific points in time for specific reasons beyond our reckoning.

I think what you're really trying to ask is "Why does God's creation involve suffering and death?" Also, I find that it is very important to look at the CAUSE of amputations. Machinery is often one cause, which we didn't have "knowledge" of until we became disobedient sinners.

In general, we're speaking death and suffering here, not specifically amputations. Amputations are just one consequence among many that we must suffer because of the immorality and degradation of man.

Originally posted by keepureye2thesky

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by keepureye2thesky
We cant even a agree on what/who/where/why God is and we have leaped to why "HE" can't heal amputees?!

Well i know who God is. And God does not exist as existence. God created existence that means he can heal and do what ever he wants. He is the owner of his creation.

Exactly my point. Everyone seems to know "who" god is or have different ideas of him. Your faith and beliefs are indeed fact and I know you believe what you feel and I respect that. But this does not make your definition of god the same as everyone else. There for I feel that arguing or debating what he can or can't do is like discussing who would win in a fight, Superman or Batman.

Well there can only be one definition of God. If God himself tells us that he is The beginning and the End. The Alpha and Omega. Always is and always was. The creator of existence "The heaven and the earth".

If God is all this. He cant be existence. He must be Non existence.

The difference between Non existence and existence is Infinite and finite.

Non existence "God" is a dimension of infinity. God never changes.

Existence "Gods creation" is a dimension of finite. Existence always changes.

The Finite Existence is a dimension within the infinitely dimension of Non existence. And that makes sense. Because Existence can never become Non existence. Which takes up all space. That is also why we see Existence as infinite. Because Existence can never disappear.

The reason we cant acknowledge Non existence is because we can only acknowledge the creation of existence. We can never see the beginning of Existence.
Only Non existence "God" can see the beginning of Existence. We cant measure the distance from 1 to 0. Because we cant see Zero. But God can measure the distance from 0 to 1. Because God is Zero.

Originally posted by PublicDefenseCorp
"God" does not intervene on Earth.
So many things have been prayed for, that have never happened, that the meager few that DO happen simply do not make sense to attribute to "God".

Think of how many people pray daily for things, that never happen.

"God" simply does not sit on a cloud, and make all asked prayers happen.

End of story.

I would like to suggest to you to read some books on George Mueller. That will change your outlook on God not intervening here on earth.
Thanks,
TT

Originally posted by AUM68
reply to post by EMPIRE

 

Dear Friend,

I am not talking about the case with the Columbs or the Hodgson report - which in both cases later have been found untrustworthy, but the letters that appeared after Blavatskys death to other dedicated people.

Your arguement tells me, that you have only scratched the surface, and you just dont want to investigate.

I must again insist, that you have to get away from the screen and start digging if you want answers.

As previously stated, there is no tangible proof that letters appeared out of thin air, were supernaturally written, etc. What you're claiming is no different from a Muslim claiming Gabrail gave Mohammad the Quran (verbally or writtten), that Moses wrote the first five books of the bible, that Moroni led Jospeh Smith to the book of Mormon, etc. None of you were there. None of you have any evidence that can be examined.

Now what your argument tells me, and anyone else of reasonable intelligence, is you are predisposed to believing things without looking or asking for evidence. The link you provided me with is not evidence, and the claims you've made are far fetched and rooted in fantasy and fiction. It is not a matter of just not wanting to investigate. That has already been done. It is a matter of logic and reason, but you want to throw all of these out the window and make claims that can never, and will never, be proven. Then you insist I get away from the screen and start digging, yet you don't know how I've done my research. Therefore, it is highly illogical, and laughabale, to imply or openly state that I must "leave the screen" to research, because you don't know what I've done.

[edit on 26-11-2009 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by reasonable
whywontgodhealamputees.com...

A brilliant read and I challenge any christian to debunk it -in fact it already takes into consideration many scenarios of christian response. So then.. what do christians think of this? How much more proof could someone need?

For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.

Now create a prayer circle like the one created for Jeanna Giese. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the soldier, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him. Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the soldier's legs overnight, in the same way that God spontaneously and miraculously cured Jeanna Giese and Marilyn Hickey's mother.

If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.

People cant be that stupid can they?

if so this world is doomed.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by reasonable

 

*chuckles* I could care less what you or he believes. And for at least the fifth time now, I have not stated my beliefs so kindly stop assuming. Just because I am defending their right to believe what they want does NOT mean I am one of them, you are acting foolishly to assume otherwise.
My problem is with you deciding to post logically fallacious arguments in an attack against those who do not share your beliefs and there IS a danger in that. A great deal of the death and strife that has happend throughout history has started with exactly the same type of arguments you now joyfully and single mindedly engage in. And I will oppose that as NONE of you silly monkeys be you Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Pagan, Taoist, Buddhist or what the frick ever have the inside track on the truth though the zealots, like yourself, refuse to think critically enough to acknowledge that basic little fact.
My ONLY interest is in attempting to talk some sense into all of you in a obviously vain attempt to avoid those things that have happend in the past. Intollerance like what you exhibit is the enemy of mankind NOT whatever philosophy/belief system/ideology you choose to be your enemy and your philosophy/beliefs/ideology is NOT some magic super thought pattern that supercedes mankind's darker nature and history has shown that A THOUSAND TIMES, yet we still have people like you that delusionally think otherwise.
All you are doing is antagonising for the gratification of your own childishly fragile ego with your logically unsound arguments, refusal to think critically and childish assaults on ideas you can't even understand much less argue against coherently.

[edit on 26-11-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Damn Watcher Why you go so easy on the guy. Rease if you would just take a breath and read back through this thread. If you can come away from that and not feel any shame, then you have issues.
You practically threaten me (with needles or what ever)at the same time you are crying for the Mods to shut down your own thread.
This thread is truly a masterpiece for you> I tell you what if you can
sit still long enough I am willing to forget it all and have an intelligent discussion on this topic with you. What say you?

sorry typing in the dark.




[edit on 26-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


A masterpiece? More like a knockoff

= (I atleast come to expect a few excerpts here in there, but I also expect some words from the poster as well...I mean...one paragraph and then an article? How original is that?:dn

[edit on 26-11-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

[edit on 26-11-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

Oh, what a lot of hooey you do talk, there is such a thing as karma.

I happen to believe we have help deciding on what is going to go on in our lives before we carnate and why, but hey that's just me.

Your all supposed to be awake here, so awaken and remember.

We're not down here to have a good time and a great big party but that's just my opinion.

Could amputees one day be able to regrow lost limbs?

Read the link.

Yes, someday, amputees will be able to regrow limbs.

So, it must be God's plan to let man discover it, and then release the discovery later, and not now.

It was God's plan to make them an amputee to begin with. If it wasn't then it wouldn't have happened.


It reminds me of a story someone told me, it goes something like this:

Once upon a time there was a flood in process. A man stands with water at his knees, and a guy next to him says "Get on my boat I will save you!". Then the man says "No Thanks, I am praying to God to save me, and he will save me." So the guy in the boat leaves. Now the water is at the guys neck. At that time, a helicopter shows up and a rescuer is lowered down on a wire and yells at the guy, "He grab this harness, I will save you!", and the man in the water yells "No Thanks, I prayed to God and he will save me!". So the helicopter leaves without him.

Now, the water is above the guys head, and he is washed away, and drowns. He is now in Heaven, face to face with God, and he asks, "God I prayed and prayed for you to save me, and you didn't, WHY?!". Then God says, "What are you talking about? I sent you a boat and a helicopter and you refused them!".

I find several things about the article disturbing... First of all, Who are the people that are referenced in the article? Marilyn Hickie is a televangelist, she is suspect by the mere fact that she makes her living by "teaching the word of God". The scriptures indicate that we are not to teach Yahweh"s word for money (Micah 3). By doing so she has disqualified herself as a fair witness. In the other case, the woman healed from rabies, there is a lot of conjecture, ...no one has ever survived an untreated case of rabies... how do we know that? Is there any scientific evidence quoted to back up the premise? No, it is just someone's unsubstantiated statement. So in both cases there isn't solid ground to stand on.

The fact that the author of the article calls Yahweh "God" and His Messiah "Jesus" indicates that they have no idea what they are talking about in the first place. God's name in Hebrew is YHWH (this is known as the Tetragramaton), it is pronounced Yahweh, which is what the letters LORD stand for ( this information is in the front of every bible, look it up, it pays to read the introduction and prefaces....). His Messiah's name is not Jesus, it is Y'shua or Yeshua , (which means Yah's Salvation)The majority of the "New Testament", was transcribed from the writings of the original authors, by greeks, who not being intimate with Hebrew or the Hebrew's tradition of name significance, translated Yeshua's name as Ieosis. Sometime during the middle ages the letter "J" was added to the english alphabet and Yeshua/Ieosis somehow became Jesus, which has no name significance at all. I know this seems off subject, but I am getting to a point.... If you don't know the correct name of the God you are talking about how can you even begin to question His ability to heal? Secondly, "God" and "Jesus" are not intechangable... Yahweh is on the throne, Yeshua is His son. Yeshua does the bidding of His father. In His own words Yeshua said that He does nothing unless the Father tells him to. So any healing done by Yeshua, was per the direction of the Father, not all the blind of the world were healed , only those that Yahweh directed Yeshua to heal. Only the paralytic that was sent to Yeshua by the direction of Yahweh, was healed. It was to demonstrate to those who were listening to Yeshua, that he was inbued by power from on High. His purpose was to get the attention of the people Yeshua was sent to redeem, the lost sheep of the House of Israel...."I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt 15:24), but that is a much deeper subject than 4000 characters will allow.

The very idea that you can stand in a circle around some person that YOU chose and decide is worthy, not Yahweh, but you... and to pray for healing to try and prove something, is absurd. It is these kind of games that people play "in the name of God", that are useless and harmful... Yahweh is fully capable of healing, I have seen miracles with my own eyes, but they are at His bidding and for His purposes, not ours.

The first 5 Books of the bible are known as the Torah. These books were given to Yahweh's people to guide them and teach them how to be acceptable to Him. If you are not going by His Law and living in covenant relationship with him, then the promises that Yahweh made to His people don't apply to you. No amount of "prayer" will compel Him to your bidding. He is not a "name it and claim it" God, He is a holy and righteous God, just and true to His word. If you will love Yahweh with your whole heart and keep His commandments, then He will be your Eloheim (GOD) and you will be His people. Then when you pray, your prayers will be heard and answered as He sees fit. Yahweh does answer prayer. He even answers the prayers of an unbeliever, because He is compassionate. But He can't be manipulated, testing Yahweh to see that He is good, is a lot different that putting Him to the test.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

I'll grant that you probably didn't bother to research this yourself, in lieu of accusing you of pure dishonesty.

This is patently false. No translation that I am aware of reads "when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher."

If it does it is in error. This is a pure deception and reflective of the sort of lies found on many of the popular atheist websites.

So, she not only went alone, but clearly indicates that someone "They" (implying she perhaps knew who they were") "took" his body. No resurrection here I'm afraid just a simple case of bodies being removed to a safe place.

Hm, perhaps we do have another apostle after all ?
"The Apostle that jesus loved "

Could it be that this character who's name is withheld, new something of the body being removed, and pissed Peter right off ?

The plot thickens.

Xtianity the greatest conspiracy on earth, welcome to the make it up as you go along Big Blag.



John 20:1-18 (New International Version)

John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"



New International Version (©1984)
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.

International Standard Version (©2008)
On the first day of the week, early in the morning and while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and noticed that the stone had been removed from the tomb.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary from Magdala went to the tomb. She saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb's entrance.

King James Bible
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

American King James Version
The first day of the week comes Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, to the sepulcher, and sees the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

American Standard Version
Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb.

Bible in Basic English
Now on the first day of the week, very early, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the place and saw that the stone had been taken away from it.

Douay-Rheims Bible
AND on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalen cometh early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre; and she saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Darby Bible Translation
And on the first day of the week Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb, while it was still dark, and sees the stone taken away from the tomb.

English Revised Version
Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb.

Webster's Bible Translation
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, to the sepulcher, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

Weymouth New Testament
On the first day of the week, very early, while it was still dark, Mary of Magdala came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from it.

World English Bible
Now on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene went early, while it was still dark, to the tomb, and saw the stone taken away from the tomb.

Young's Literal Translation
And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

Geez, Don't you people know anything?
Ok, Let me explain.. Some poor guys legs disappeared. God Disappeared. If God can't make himself or his so called son, Jesus, "Reappear" how is he gonna make some guys legs "Reappear"?

Originally posted by Damian-007
God Disappeared.

God disappeared?!?!?

That is news to me.... God is light, God is love, God is all that is good, God is ALL.

I see light, I see love, I see all that is good, and I see ALL. So I see God every day. I don't know what you are talking about, God didn't disapear.

[edit on 27-11-2009 by ALLis0NE]

Originally posted by reasonable

Originally posted by pumpkinorange

Originally posted by reasonable

Originally posted by pumpkinorange

Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by pumpkinorange

 

If you don't understand, then faith is the last place you should look. Faith is a copout in that regard.

Reas: Our minds and comprehension at this time are peanuts compared to the super intelligent being and creator that is God. Since this is ATS, let me make a wild speculation as a point to you: Looking at your avatar and quote from the Bible, what if the reason God commanded what he did was because those tribes carried the bloodline of the nephilim and needed to be wiped out? Then the command would become clear to us, wouldn't it? Trusting God and believing what he says is the truth doesn't require that we have all the answers or comprehend his reasons.

Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord. "As high as the heavens are above the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."