Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works?

It was after the complete revelation to Jesus that he offered his prayers and petitions (Hebrews 5:7) (Gethsemine) not so much for himself but for those who would come after, and for the Son of God. He was heard, and thanks to his petition the God the Son did not disappear into oblivion. This is how great the Son of Man is. It was after this that he began speaking to his disciples of himself going away and the coming of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the nameless one, bearer of many titles but no name. He is the scapegoat, wandering nameless outside the camp, a comfort to those outside the camp. (knew I'd disagree somewhere with EGW, but that's okay 'cuz I'm telling the story)

The one sometimes known as Satan is really nothing. He's defeated, nothing but a nuisance to those who allow him. He has no place in the Covenant or in the prophecy. He will be put out of his misery.

(Hebrew 10:26-31) It is not sin to animal to priest to tent to scapegoat as has been formerly taught. The reality is that sin is not a factor at all except to those who know and reject the covenant and the blood of the Covenant. May it be unto the oathbreaker as it is unto this animal, fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire.

As for Paul: I will see him free, though he had no assurance of inheriting the prize. His followers, those brought to Christ through his work have the say. I think it appropriate to vote yea, and if anybody disagrees they can try to explain it to me.

So remember the Law of Moses and the prophet Elijah has indeed come.


[edit on 28-11-2009 by pthena]

I inform myself from the end of Johua's life when he tells the Israelites to make an oath. One of the reasons I now think had an influence on the timing was the tree that was at this place, which would have been a witness. It would have been sort of sacred tree and maybe an oracle tree.

And Iesous (Joshua)made a covenant with the people that day and gave them law and judgment at Selo before the tent of the God of Israel.
And he wrote those words in the book as the law of God,and he took a large stone, and Iesous set it under the terebinth tree before the Lord.
And Iesous said to the people, "Look, this stone shall be in your midst as a witness; for it has heard all the things spoken to it by the Lord, whatever he spoke to us today, and this shall be in your midst as a witness at the last of days, whenever you deal falsely with the Lord my God."(the New English Translation of the Septuagint)

reply to post by jmdewey60
I forgot all about Joshua. Always two witnesses. Stone and tree, Firepot and blazing torch(Gen.15:17) The two mountains (Joshua 8:30-35)

The scholars can untangle who wrote which parts of the Law, I think the final edit contains some repetition.

I added a line about the stone temple and David's seed.

Trees are good. Reminds me of a poem I wrote back in '96, called "Speaking to the Wind" it's somewhere in my papers.

As I was speaking to the wind one day
he interrupted me to say,
Why bother speaking to the wind?
I travel to and fro
No one listens to me
go tell it to that tree.

So to the tree I said
As I was speaking to the wind today
he interrupted me to say...
In the rustling of the leaves was laughter,
The tree knew what I was after.
. . . .
I'd have to find it. The gist is the tree corrected me about the foolishness of speaking to the wind. A lesson I relearn from time to time.
. . . .
He is older and wiser than me,
has been around so long to see.

. . .
Yeah, trees are cool




[edit on 28-11-2009 by pthena]

[edit on 28-11-2009 by pthena]

Isn't it said that the trees that Jesus was amomg, in Gethsemine, are still alive today?
I was doing a little research on trees because of my study on the Garden of Eden story.
I don't even know what the oath was:

If you have no desire to worship the Lord, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the Lord!”

He goes back a long time, I guess to before Abraham. The gods of false temples, the current evil god, or the current good god. The obvious choice would be the good god. Then Joshua says, you can not serve god because you are unclean, but you can choose not to serve the others. That always makes me laugh. You might not be a good wife but you can avoid being an adulteress. That's as good as we can get and as much as we can swear to. Or what God, being very wise, will allow us to.

reply to post by jmdewey60
I heard somewhere, slideshow or such, when I was a kid about those olive trees still being there. Isn't there a warning or instruction in Revelation to not hurt olive trees?

I still think it ended on a rather frightening note. How does this Old Covenant relate to the New Covenant? And what relationship do Gentiles have to all this?

reply to post by pthena
Don't worship any gods, even if someone insists?
There seems to be more danger in doing so than not.
Be happy with what god has given you without asking. Run away from gods who make promises of nice things, in this world, by asking. Jesus promised his followers only a hideous death.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Don't worship any gods, even if someone insists?
There seems to be more danger in doing so than not.
Be happy with what god has given you without asking. Run away from gods who make promises of nice things, in this world, by asking. Jesus promised his followers only a hideous death.

This answer is very shocking to me. Shocking enough to bring me back to reality.
Jesus promised help in this world through the Holy Spirit. He just didn't promise acceptance from the world, or fame, or riches. He didn't promise a hideous death, he minimized the importance of it, like, "not a big deal, God loves you." There have been quite a few followers who lived long full lives. That's a good thing.

The rest I can't argue with.
God is only known through fellowship, there is no physical thing to focus on except the creation and people. Creation fades, people are mortal. So the eternal never changing Creator is only known through moving changing things.

Other gods offer power, dominance, control, fame, riches. There is no fellowship in these things. Even if these gods go by familiar Good Names there is no fellowship in these things. No fellowship equals no knowledge of the Creator. It would be a good choice to avoid these gods.

If you please, I would like to recant very many things I have written. I don't know Samuel and I don't know Paul. I would like to get to know Paul though.

On the "New Theology", which I believe:
It isn't new at all. Very many people have believed it.
Though it took actual historical figures at a particular time to activate it, it was planned from the beginning. God the creator is not bound by time. The blessings of this plan are available to all throughout history from the beginning. No one is excluded or rejected. God loves, and always has. God forgives and always has. God has fellowship with people who fellowship together, and always has.


[edit on 29-11-2009 by pthena]

[edit on 29-11-2009 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena
I was trying to bring it back to personal experience.
Things in my life that I would classify as miraculous were things I never even thought to ask for. Stuff I have asked for are pretty much what never happened. Except for things I could probably do, if I worked at it enough. That does not mean that God did not provide it. The Holy Spirit can provide some sort of assistance against the destructive aspects of your own ego, which seems to resist any kind of advancement.
I don't have an experience so much with an object known as god, so I find it difficult to focus worship onto something overly specific.
Jesus would have to be the embodiment of the mind of God, as much as we are capable of comprehending.
The new thing from this new theology is how there is a son of god who sacrifices himself, and has his place taken by a glorified human.
This even has a sort of tie-in with Badmedia's vision, I suppose. Not to worship the creature so much as the Father and the spirit which is the Son.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Things in my life that I would classify as miraculous were things I never even thought to ask for. Stuff I have asked for are pretty much what never happened.

Miraculous things do seem to just happen.
sounds a lot like what James wrote about. I would recommend James very highly.

The Holy Spirit can provide some sort of assistance against the destructive aspects of your own ego, which seems to resist any kind of advancement.

again right in James. What he refers to as the tongue is what we call the ego. We are not the ego. If we recognize that we can control it. When out of control we can get back in control and should.

I don't have an experience so much with an object known as god, so I find it difficult to focus worship onto something overly specific.
Jesus would have to be the embodiment of the mind of God, as much as we are capable of comprehending.

Appropriate. God is not an object. We know Jesus through the Story, and his words as recorded. That's what we are capable of. When reading a story it helps to get into it, like it's not just words on paper, it's real people, really doing and saying.

The new thing from this new theology is how there is a son of god who sacrifices himself, and has his place taken by a glorified human.
This even has a sort of tie-in with Badmedia's vision, I suppose. Not to worship the creature so much as the Father and the spirit which is the Son.

Yes, the Father is worshipped, not by rote ritual, but in spirit and truth. badmedia said it didn't matter to him whether Jesus was real or fiction, the words matter because the Father is in them. This is sound. If you force knowledge of Jesus on someone, you are forcing a lie, no truth there.

Visions are nothing really, they don't provide content. For content we have the word.




[edit on 29-11-2009 by pthena]

I believe you can still be saved by Jesus when you are on your death bed, can he not do so?

Also when you read the Bible you have to think about the perspective of the story or commentry, maybe Paul for example had to work by faith, he has a lot of payback in his old treatment of Christians as a persecuter of them, maybe his faith by works was his own mission, but that is just my theory, he was sometimes in the third heaven as he called it maybe that has something to do with it too. It is not really contradictions but looking deeper at the whole picture you have to zoom in a bit to understand as much as some zoom out of it.

Ok look ...it takes FAITH to believe (that God will lead you in the right way ) and it requires moving your feet to walk that way ....the LORD tells you which way to walk ....and then .there is a requirment of YOU MOVING YOUR FEET to head in that direction...which is an ACTION ON YOUR PART (not just saying words reading words and not living the life) ........


Saying you have faith and believe and are not walking that way (the way which we are to walk in humility,love,in humbleness of spirit etc ) is what is meant by FAITH WITHOUT WORKS which is DEAD .

As Badmedia says (and this I agree with) ..If you LOVE HIM you will OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS ....
What are his commandments ?


We all know what they are ..

And if you LOVE THE LORD GOD with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself (TRULY LOVE THEM) then you WILL NOT STEAL FROM THEM ...you will NOT COVET THEIR STUFF or thier WIFE >>you will not COMMIT ADULTRY etc etc etc ......................

So that is what was meant when Jesus said these two comandments are what it all boils down to .If you commit to OBEYING THE FIRST TWO ..
You will not disobey the rest of the commandments ..................

And of course Jesus also says this .

If you hate in your heart YOU HAVE MURDERED (because to hate is to murder) ..........If you look upon a women to lust and not acted it out yet you are STILL GUILTY OF ADULTRY (because you have already commited it in your heart ) ...


If your thoughts are of THINGS THAT ARE UNCLEAN then your heart mind soul and body is ALSO UNCLEAN >

Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Originally posted by PSUSA
None of this means that you MUST do X, Y, and Z to be "saved". But if you will be saved you will do works fitting for salvation.

Actually the bible says we MUST do "X, Y, and Z to be "saved""

The Lord says the scriptures cannot be broken, so in that case.

we must receive God's grace and mercy.
we must repent
we must stop sinning
we must prove our repentance by our deeds
we must forgive others
we must have FAITH; not the blind, ignorant, worthless faith of the world or so called religious doctrines.
we must be righteous and holy
we must be obedient
we must do his will
we must overcome
etc... etc... etc... etc... etc... etc... etc...

The bible is extremely blatant in these matters and moreso.

No contradictions whatsoever.

Originally posted by PSUSA
When I think of contradictions, I mean where scriptures say one factual thing in one area, and something else totally different in another area. I used Christs' genealogy as an example of this, since they are not the same, making it a contradiction. It's one that might have an answer, and probably does, but it's still a contradiction.

This is very simple to understand. The most basic fact everybody knows. It is not hidden. That is God is the one who planted the seed directly, it was not done through Joseph. Matthew and Luke as well as the other prophets knew this and wrote accordingly.

What is obvious then is the genealogy in Matthew which leads to Joseph is not the "biological" genealogy but rather through marriage, what we would refer to as the step-father and he had a role as such.

As for the genealogy in Luke he makes it rather clear that there were those that supposed Joseph was the father. Though God the Father planted the seed Joseph's Father(-in-Law) whom he was the son(-in-law) to was Eli. Even though Joseph was "supposed" by others to be the biological father Luke and the other believers knew he was not and again they wrote accordingly and it is to be understood accordingly.

No contradictions whatsoever.

reply to post by The Riley Family


I think it's more about "What is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit".

When Jesus is said to be born of a virgin, it is actually in reference to the father/god. Which is to say he is born of spirit. He is born of the father. The father of course has no equal, and would still be a virgin. All souls are born of the spirit and born of the father.

At one point, Jesus denies Mary is his mother. He only recognizes the father - single parent/birth. He does not see himself as just "flesh" here, because if he did, then he would have said Mary is his mother.

The entire time Jesus talks about the 2 births. And the birth of the spirit is something all must experience before going further. Father was a virgin then, and is still a virgin now.

John 3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

reply to post by badmedia


Adam, the son of God.

No Contradictions Whatsoever

Heres a clear example of contradictory scripture.

In James 2:14-26 James appears to be saying that salvation is by works, However Paul teaches it to be by grace Rom 4:5 titus 3:5-7 eph 2:8-9

Which one is it?
The Bible is riddled with these little but HUGE contradictions.
This is why there is many different views.

Here is the scripture referenced in James

James 2:14-26 (New International Version)


14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Here is my reply

You said " James appears to be saying that salvation is by works..."

First of all, please don't use the word "appears". What does it actually say?

Faith without works is dead. It's useless. "20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless"

Works are evidence of faith. "18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

So I do not see the contradiction in this scripture and Pauls' scriptures you quoted..

None of this means that you MUST do X, Y, and Z to be "saved". But if you will be saved you will do works fitting for salvation.

________________________________________________________________________________

What kind of works, is the work in the change of attitude or is it the action one does, but the action comes from that change in attitude does it not? Does not mean you have to do something spectacular within faith but faith is intertwined by change of one self is it not?

Remember even Demons believe in Christ, does not mean they follow him, so yes a change in your ways are your deeds.

James and the other book and letter writers could be speaking about their own laws in which to abide by when in the presence of the Holy Spirit, so they are speaking about how other prophets kept in line with God and that the writers you read about had their own standard. But yes if one has faith, does that not mean he will change his ways, is by changing ones ways to faith gain self control and new moral which is the works. But also remember that James and the rest of them had their own moral codes and these letters are sometimes related to their present environment and spiritual condition.

So when someone who touched Christ and was healed did they have the works before? Well that person had a change of character and with that the faith healed them, it depends what people mean by faith by works?


[edit on 10-1-2010 by The time lord]