Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works?

Message of Elijah

"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of LORD comes.
He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers;..." Malachi 4:5,6


Abrahamic view of God also had defender and provider elements as when God said, "I am your shield and everlasting reward" which I think was when God's covenant with Abraham was made. I think the kinsman redeemer concept came in, as far as I can tell, when Judah stood as surety for Benjamin his brother before the prime minister of Egypt, who is identified as Joseph, another brother. That aspect was probably already understood, since Judah didn't have to explain it much to Israel, his father, before taking Benjamin.

The apostle Paul (Galations) uses the Abrahamic covenant with Christ as seed of Abraham to offer covenant to any who join in Christ as kin, bypassing the Law (understood as not including Genesis)
The problem with trying to fully understand Paul is that all we have are his letters written to people he'd already taught, so was only reminding people. We don't have his curriculum syllabus and don't know how he explained in detail concepts like sin-forgiveness-sacrifice. And we don't know how he answered student questions, although some portions of his letters were answers to questions received by letter.

I believe that sacrifice for forgiveness of sin is particularly belonging to the tribe of Levi which I believe was the core of the Exodus experience. Though most of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers were written down much later (Samuel I suspect) the core story and ritual were handed down by those connected to the tabernacle. When Samuel anointed David, a close alliance between the tribe of Levi and tribe of Judah was formed, strengthened when David had tabernacle brought to Jerusalem. The other tribes were left out, by and large, and the Levitical ritual became identified as Judean Religion. Since then Jerusalem became of importance to Judean Religion. The core of Deuteronomy was written before the Babylonian invasion, identifying Jerusalem as the place chosen by YHWH to bear his NAME. Also, even though the prophet Jeremiah had been abused by the Davidic king, he was posthumously honored by having his removal and restoration prophesies included in Deuteronomy by the scholarly final editors of Torah in Babylon.

Sin sacrifice for forgiveness is the native Judean Religion (Temple Religion) through alliance with Levi. It was necessary for the Messiah to be of David's royal line (as far as the Jews and Levites are concerned). Yeshua more than once specifically stated that he was sent for the benefit of the Jews, his tribe, his people. That was the mission he had from God. He did admit to the Samaritan woman that he was the Messiah, and that salvation was of the Jews. For the Jews he is the passover lamb. He has fulfilled for all time the requirements of the Law, all of the ritual of sacrifices. When he cleansed the temple, by flogging out the money changers, he said something about Gods intention for a house of prayer(mosque) for all people. He already knew that the temple would become completely obsolete after his sacrifice.

But for those outside the Law, without a forgiveness for sin ritual, God forgives whoever He wants to without sacrifice
I am outside the Law.

Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, a virtual Samaritan, himself outside the Law, yet a full member of Abraham's Covenant. He felt a deep commitment to the Jews, his kinsmen. Although he was commissioned by the risen Yeshua to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles, also outside the Law, out of love and kinship toward those who would exclude him, he preached the death of Messiah for the forgiveness of sins. It was necessary for those under Law, and it did not hurt the Gentiles. He preached it to the Gentiles for the sake of consistency. He refused to preach two different Gospels. It is the same God, it is the same Christ.

In the same way that God (the Oath Keeper) brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt for the sake of His Eternal Covenant with Abraham, just so for the sake of the same covenant Allah the Merciful sent His word to Mohammed. There are not three Gods; one for Jews, one for Christians and one for Muslims. There is one God the Merciful and one Jesus Christ. And every tribe and nation is blessed through Abraham.

This sounds like Elijah's message to me.

Cunclussions I have reached from Elijah Message

Monotheism is superior. There is no need to abandon the OT God. Relationship with God is not difficult. The Jews really are a stiffnecked people. God makes special allowances for that. The message of Paul is colored by that special allowance. It is safe for Christians to follow Paul. Islam is actually closer in its simplicity to the ancient beliefs of Abraham, and as such, is more universally accessible to people.
And most important: Nobody has to be the aggressor in killing anyone else. It's just plain wrong.

Unfortunately we don't know much about the teachings of James. It is possible that he taught a non-Christian discipleship of Yeshua.

Christianity as taught by Paul spread throughout the empire. The school of James was restricted to Jerusalem mainly. The only remnants would be of those who fled Jerusalem before the destruction, as instructed by the prophet Yeshua.

I read somewhere that the remnant ended up in Western Arabian peninsula, from where they influenced Islam.

Although I read the Koran once, and know a little about Islam, I am a Western Barbarian by cultural upbringing, and am more comfortable with what I am familiar with

reply to post by badmedia

I experienced a vision, and the person who was sitting next to me during it had no idea anything had happened.

Can you elaborate? Or have you written about this here already? I'm interested in what you have to say about this.

I agree with you in that you seem to say that to learn, you must forget what you already thought you know, that was taught by "teachers" that didn't have a clue of what they were talking about.

But unlike you, nothing was handed to me on a silver platter. Not that I'm jealous, mind you. It just happened in a different way. With me, in hindsight, it was "So you want to know the truth, huh? First you will find out what it's not". And I checked out some weird things trying to explain this "eternal hell" nonsense.


[edit on 23/11/09 by PSUSA]

reply to post by PSUSA


I've written about it a few times, but I don't have a link at the moment.

But it wasn't really handed to me on a silver pattern. I did alot of truth seeking and such before that happened. I seen the evil/manipulation of this world and I was basically distraught and in disbelief of how/why it had to be this way.

I have no reason to believe that what I experienced is not something that is available to anyone. But I honestly have no idea on how to make it happen for people, other than to say you must seek with honesty, and trust in that which is within rather than what men tell you.

What happened to me is talked about in the bible. John 14 speaks of it, as does Proverbs 8/9.

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And for the other discussion about who's kingdom this is and the signifance of Paul coming after Jesus:

John 14

27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

In proverbs 8, it talks about finding the father earlier.

Proverbs 8

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

The riches he gives is wisdom and understanding. I recommend all of Proverbs 8 and 9 on this subject.

Also, when Jesus says:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

He is talking about Hosea 6.

Hosea 6

5Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

The part about sinners to repentence ties right back into the previous stuff. As Proverbs 8 and 9 talks about the importance of going in the way of understanding. As it is by understanding that one is able to keep the commandments properly, and is why Jesus gives understanding.

Psalm 111

7The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

8They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

9He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

So all I know is to go in the way of understanding, seek it out and don't be afraid to ask questions. If you have questions or something doesn't make sense there is a reason for it, and it needs to be remedied, rather than pretending it's not there etc as many do.

Look out into the world and ask how can men live amongst each other in true peace. Not because they are forced and so forth. When I did that, I seen the understanding behind the commandments and the rest is "history" I guess.

Well said. I know exactly what you are writing about. I disagree with you about Paul, but the rest I understand. I dont see Paul as the "prince of this world" and really don't understand the problem some have with Paul. But maybe you're right.

The riches he gives is wisdom and understanding. I recommend all of Proverbs 8 and 9 on this subject.

Yes. And it's disturbing to see that these riches are seen to be monetary wealth by todays church. Just plant that $1000 seed and that will force God to send you more and more money. Sickening. It blows my mind that people cant see through this. THey do love their money.

reply to post by PSUSA


see also James 1:5-8.
And BadMedia is right in thinking that following Paul is counterproductive.
I realized just last night that Paul never was completely free of the Law. I've never heard anyone explain the sacrifice of Jesus without saying something about the Law. Even by extension sin is defined as law breaking.

Every time Paul taught death of Christ as sin or law satisfaction he was proving that he was not free. It's very sad really, that he taught gentiles that they were not bound to the law yet he was never free himself.

Thank you BadMedia. You stuck to your guns. I was bound to Paul who was bound to the Law, so I was never free either.

I read James last night and found therein everything I believe. Missing is all that familiar Christian dogma about pre-existing-somehow-god-son-of -david stuff. Not there. Human sacrifice? not there.

Human sacrifice implies that the Law is more important than the man. Jesus always taught that the man is more important than the Law.

I think I'll stop calling Yeshua the Messiah and start calling him the Son of Man. Obviously that's what he preferred.

reply to post by badmedia
Thank you. Ii is obvious to me now. All those Christian doctrines are irrelevant. All that truely matters is that we love one another. Which in my view mostly concerns caring for those in need.

You might find this interesting. I am a man of limited income, yet I never lack. I give 10 or 20 dollars to every homeless, hungry person I see. Recently I sent $1,000 to Second Harvest which runs soup kitchens, shelters, food banks and other needed things. Yet, I am not broke, I still have enough to give.

Yes, yes God is love. Give 10 %

OK,

I disagree with you about Paul, but the rest I understand. I dont see Paul as the "prince of this world" and really don't understand the problem some have with Paul. But maybe you're right.

Well, now we have some common ground.

However, if you look at some of the passages written about Paul or by Paul himself you can find some pretty heavy contradictions which could make a reasonable person doubt. Badmedia has zeroed in on these inconsistencies and has concluded the worst.

After reading 1 Corinthians again I have found yet another Paul blunder.
in 7:12and in 40, Paul seems to imply that he is writing on his own authority.
However in Gal 1:11-17, 2Tim 3:16-17he says its coming not from him.

There has to be an explanation
Any suggestions?

[edit on 23-11-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil


Make sure he is not quoting about previous passages, maybe he read the gospels but is repeating certain subjects that the spirit gives him to undertand that compliements what he is saying now with how life after Jesus continues through the spirit.

In Galatians he is saying he did not write the Gospels, he was taught it, like you did not write this post. Sometimes he is preaching sometimes the spirit is working through him and he says when he is adding new commands and understandings that it is from him. I don't see the problems, but will try and help if you think I am wrong, but interesting observance.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by pthena

All those Christian doctrines are irrelevant.

So what do you mean by irrelevant? Do you mean that all the tecnical stuff in Paul is just so much achedemic stuff for the legalisticly minded Jews, and us, being gentiles, can pretty much just take it in for a minute and them just go about our lives only concerning ourselves with our duty to our fellow man?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by pthena

 

All those Christian doctrines are irrelevant.

So what do you mean by irrelevant? Do you mean that all the tecnical stuff in Paul is just so much achedemic stuff for the legalisticly minded Jews, and us, being gentiles, can pretty much just take it in for a minute and them just go about our lives only concerning ourselves with our duty to our fellow man?

Something like that. I still see great value in warnings he made. He could see bad things creeping into the church, but he was powerless to stop them. He was the one who left the door open, by not himself being free of the Law. He tried mightily. Since he could see the dangers, his warnings are valid.

It is wrong to blame the bloody history of Christianity on Paul. He never implied in any way that Christians are to kill anyone, or try to rule the world.

Paul was a deeply conflicted man. He was not a Jew. He was of Benjamin.
In his early life he was trying to prove himself to the Jews, that he was as zealous for the Law as they were. He was more zealous to the point of persecuting. He never really got over it. He was honest enough to admit it. Read his words about his struggles with thinking he had run, he could see the prize but wondered if he would ever reach it. I don't think he quite did, in his life. If it were up to me of course I would count to him righteousness.

So I would say: Believe in God, heed the warnings of Paul, and go about doing the best you can toward your fellow man.

I hope I did the quote box right. First try. Grace to you and peace from God the Father and Yeshua the Son of Man

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by pthena

 

All those Christian doctrines are irrelevant.

So what do you mean by irrelevant? Do you mean that all the tecnical stuff in Paul is just so much achedemic stuff for the legalisticly minded Jews

Another try with quote box.
I would like to now have new conclusions, referring to conclusions I had about the Elijah Message.

The Jews are only a tribe along with all the other tribes. It's high time they take their rightful place.

By a strange quirk of history, the non-Jewish apostle to the Gentiles brought them into partial bondage to the Law. The Jewish, some say brother of Yeshua, James was actually setting the Jews free from the Law.
A very strange quirk indeed!

Peace and freedom!

I think there is something to be said about the law. Even if it is a general idea about what the law is. Now, Jesus may not have been too concerned about the law, as the lawyers were, but he had another kind of law which was what he was doing and what he was doing it for, and by who's request he was doing it.

5:7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion. 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through the things he suffered. 5:9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 5:10 and he was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

It was important for Jesus to fulfill something that was well defined, and not to be just going off and doing whatever he pleased. He was pleased to be doing God's mission, and so he was able to take part in something that is indispensable for us, being a perfect intermediary between God, and man, himself being a man but fully in accord with God.
Now our requirements are not the same as Jesus' but we should be on the same general track, which is maybe being a little uncomfortable at times, if it has a purpose to help others.

Hint: when you press the quote button, you can see how the coding is, in case you want to copy what someone else is doing to get the right sort of format on your post like you want.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I think there is something to be said about the law. Even if it is a general idea about what the law is. Now, Jesus may not have been too concerned about the law, as the lawyers were, but he had another kind of law which was what he was doing and what he was doing it for, and by who's request he was doing it.

5:7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion. 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through the things he suffered. 5:9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 5:10 and he was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

It was important for Jesus to fulfill something that was well defined, and not to be just going off and doing whatever he pleased. He was pleased to be doing God's mission, and so he was able to take part in something that is indispensable for us, being a perfect intermediary between God, and man, himself being a man but fully in accord with God.
Now our requirements are not the same as Jesus' but we should be on the same general track, which is maybe being a little uncomfortable at times, if it has a purpose to help others.

Hint: when you press the quote button, you can see how the coding is, in case you want to copy what someone else is doing to get the right sort of format on your post like you want.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

I think for now I'll just do the quotes as easily as possible. I would like to respond to your whole comment any way, so no problem this time.

Yes, I agree completely as far as I can tell.
It seems very important to me to hold onto Yeshua as high priest. He's the one who accepted me as his, and he is mine. That I can never let go.

Yeshua was fulfilling actual prophesies throughout his life. The gospel of Mathew makes special point of calling attention to this. Of course he overreaches sometimes. But the fulfillment is his major theme.

I think in this case if fulfillment of the Law means fulfillment of Law as in the whole Old Testament, we have common ground.

Yeshua did suffer much, and not gratuitously, but to actually help people. Yes, I do agree that in some cases we may also have to suffer to help others. It goes without saying that it has nothing to do with outward appearance, but genuine assistance needed in the situation.

I think Yeshua was the lovingist man to live. For that reason, he was raised from the dead. Death could not hold him.

So yes, there is value in knowing the whole Bible, as long as most importance is given to what is most important, and everything else is kept in proper perspective. I appreciate Bible scholars. They do a lot of work that I can't. They are probably called by God to such duties, and I know they help people. Good scholarship is not painless, so yes, they sacrifice too.

Peace

[edit on 23-11-2009 by pthena]

Originally posted by oliveoil
After reading 1 Corinthians again I have found yet another Paul blunder.
in 7:12and in 40, Paul seems to imply that he is writing on his own authority.
However in Gal 1:11-17, 2Tim 3:16-17he says its coming not from him.

There has to be an explanation
Any suggestions?

I can explain it. I deal with this and state it in the 2 different ways as well.

Matthew 7.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The father is within. He is within all people(assuming they have souls).

So, when I talk to other people, they will think my understanding that I speak is my own, and on my own authority. And the words I speak are on my own authority. It is the understanding behind the words I speak that comes from the father, and that understanding is what I follow as my authority - but I speak and write on my own authority - It is my choice.

As such, when people find the father within, and start to act on it then it will appear to everyone else as if they are acting on their own authority. And in a way, they are as they have chosen to follow the understanding.

When it comes to authority, you have authority over your own life. You are the authority in what you choose, and what you do. The problem with Paul and authority is when he claims authority over others. That is when you get into sin.

Because you are to love one another as yourself. If you love something, then you will set it free. You have free will, and you are loved etc. When you claim authority over another, then you are by default not loving them as yourself.

Now there is some obvious exceptions. Children and such. If a man is about to be hit by a car, you are not in error to push them out of the way etc. Things like that.

And so this is what the commandments are based on(except those dealing with god). Do not lie, steal, murder and so forth. Those are all basic examples of infringing on another persons free will(god given).

Jesus gives this understanding in the 2 things. Love one another as yourself, and love god. And so you can see the foundation of all the commandments(not dealing with god) in that.

After I had my vision and such, I tried to give my free will to the father. I figured who better to know for me and so forth. But it was never taken. Instead, I was given understanding I needed in order to guide me. This is expressed in Proverbs 8, as wisdom and understanding guide the path.

Proverbs 8

1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

5:7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion. 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through the things he suffered. 5:9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 5:10 and he was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

It was important for Jesus to fulfill something that was well defined, and not to be just going off and doing whatever he pleased. He was pleased to be doing God's mission, and so he was able to take part in something that is indispensable for us, being a perfect intermediary between God, and man, himself being a man but fully in accord with God.

[edit on 23-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

I notice you are quoting from letter to Hebrews. I don't feel completely competent yet to prove anything yet, but I have a theory:

My preliminary evidence is at the end of the letter. The final greetings sound an awful lot like Paul to me. My theory is that this was the last letter he wrote before his execution. From other letters, he was asking for some scrolls and other writings to be brought to him. He may have made a final attempt to free himself finally from the Law. The authorship by Paul is generally rejected by scholars because the tone is much different. But so what? If he was finally making a breakthrough, of course he would sound different. If this theory is correct, then the letter to the Hebrews would reflect his most mature, well reasoned work. I think empending execution would tend to sharpen the mind a bit. I don't know if I can prove this, but in any case I should look into Hebrews to see if the author seems free. I admire Paul greatly and would like to see him free. This desire of mine may cloud objectivity. Also I would like to look into fellowship and kinsman aspects of the covenant apart from sin-sacrifice aspects.

If you have studied these things you may be able to help.

A note to all readers: If I seem to fly off into crazy regions please challenge what seems to be way too out there.

Grace and peace from our Father and Yeshua our brother.

reply to post by pthena


I am very much bound to the law. Meaning, I believe the commandments must be followed. Jesus doesn't change the laws.

When Jesus enters into things, the Jews are basically confused and lead by hypocrites. They have passed the laws of men off as the laws of god, and are using it as a way to persecute people who threaten their power(as they do with Jesus).

The problem was, nobody understood the commandments. Because they did not understand, the people were unable to determine the difference between gods law, and the laws and traditions of men. They had no clue the true spirit of things.

In terms of math, the Jews of the time could not tell you which was really true: 1+1=2 or 4+5=4. They just accepted and did what the pharisees and leaders told them. They had very literal laws to follow, of which was a bit confusing for most.

Take the concept of an eye for an eye. They believed that it was ok to kill the man who killed. They were doing gods work, because that man sinned. Thus, they justified their killings. However, they forgot "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". They were not actually justified, they were committing another sin themselves. Thus the way that seems right, but isn't, and the hypocrisy. They didn't realize they were also killing.

Others try to say that oh it's about murder and such, but I think it's just a way around it due to not understanding.

Ok, so Jesus gives proper understanding on how to follow the commandments. Doing this is very important, I will explain later - there is an actual path.

By giving that understanding, he separates the laws of god from the laws of men. By living sin-free, he is the example of what to follow. He speaks in parables to give understanding etc. So it is by that understanding that people will be able to keep the commandments(Psalm 111:10).

So it's not that Jesus gets rid of the law, or that he changes the laws. He doesn't, he clarifies and shows people what is god's law and what were the laws of men(society). So, you don't kill people who plant crops wrong, because those were really laws of men and the society of the time.

From start to finish.

In genesis you have taken from the tree of knowledge(to learn good and evil). As you are now capable of doing evil, you are then quareentined on the earth(back to the soil from which the flesh came). This is done to protect the rest of the life in the universe/creation.

In order to learn good and evil, you have to be born ignorant, or what is called original sin. If you knew the good already, you would never accept evil at all, and thus would not learn. How do you understand the difference between hot and cold? Only by experiencing both. So while on earth you are capable of evil, and we live in an society with evil in it.

Wisdom is to take the knowledge, experiences and understandings and then make the correct choice. As the reason why you were put on this earth in the first place was because you were capable of evil and knowing evil, the only way back out is to make the correct choice and do not do evil. You can think of it as a school, or some might even say a prison. Either way, you ain't getting out being/doing evil.

Because the very presence of your evil in a good/heavenly society makes it by default impossible. How can you expect to live in a society which has no theft if you yourself are a thief? Your very existance in that society makes it impossible. Thus no man doing evil can ever get into heaven, easier to a camel through the eye of a needle.

So, before Jesus people were basically just follow specific laws and had the problems I mentioned. But Jesus gives the understanding needed in order to show people how to live, which is what allows them to get into heaven and so forth.

With that understanding, you make the correct choice which is wisdom and you can then enter back into that society etc with the lessons learned. Jesus shows you the path and way to do that.

Also, I have to mention - Please be careful that I do not deceive you. I am not trying to do so by any means, however maybe I am not doing the best job explaining myself and so forth. In the end, I am of no authority and nothing I say should be accepted at all. I would rather shut up than deceive someone.

It makes me nervous and uncomfortable if people praise or thank me in any manner to be honest. All I can think is - omg, what have I done wrong? Please don't turn me into a Pharisee or let me wake up in the seat of Moses.

reply to post by The time lord


Sorry for the wait in response

I Checked and cant find anything

In 1 Corrinthians 7:12 Paul is saying" I" not the lord.Paul is not quoting a direct command from Jesus.

In 1 Corrinthians 7:40 Paul is saying And I THINK I also have the Spirit of God.

Hes implying that he does not know if he has the Spirit of God.

theres no other previous passages that he is quoting.

These two verses contradict what he says in Gal 1:11-17

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Galatians 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Galatians 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

and in Tim3:16-17

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

EEErrrrr.:bnghd:

reply to post by pthena

If you have studied these things you may be able to help.

Not that much. I have read a few articles concerning the authorship but have not arrived at a decision that I am willing to back in a strong way. I like your analysis, though.
I am planing on buying a few books concerning the philosophy of Paul. There are a couple on Amazon I have put in my wish list. One is something like, "Paul as Anthropologist". It promotes the idea that Paul had the philosophy of reforming man, that a person could become better than he would otherwise, with the help of God.
I normally just read Hebrews as an authoritative book on how to put the Old Covenant into proper context in light of the accomplishments and ongoing work of Jesus as the Christ. In my own mind, there is a personality behind the book that I feel as a presence, who is speaking the words, but it doesn't say, "I am Paul", for some reason. I think that whoever it is, is speaking with the same authority of Paul.



[edit on 23-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by badmedia

Matthew 7.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

I get what your saying but this seems a little to vague. Paul is unsure he has the Holy Ghost.

1 Corrinthians 7:40 Paul is saying And I THINK I also have the Spirit of God.



[edit on 23-11-2009 by oliveoil]