Disturbing Video from Pittsburgh

@ kenochs the protesters were blocking a four lane one way street.

Here is a map of Pitt's campus. The park that you first see is Schenley Plaza (light blue on the map) They got arrested moving down anther grass area by 5th Ave. Basically when the protesters left the park, they made a right, a left, and another left. Those do not seem to be the actions of people trying to leave. If they were good hippies and were taking public transportation, they passed up a couple of bus stops. If they were bad hippies and brought their own SUV's then were ever they parked they did not take a straight, i want to go home line, to there SUVs.

www.tour.pitt.edu...

@ kenochs the protesters were blocking a four lane one way street.

Here is a map of Pitt's campus. The park that you first see is Schenley Plaza (light blue on the map) They got arrested moving down anther grass area by 5th Ave. Basically when the protesters left the park, they made a right, a left, and another left. Those do not seem to be the actions of people trying to leave. If they were good hippies and were taking public transportation, they passed up a couple of bus stops. If they were bad hippies and brought their own SUV's then were ever they parked they did not take a straight, i want to go home line, to there SUVs.

www.tour.pitt.edu...

reply to post by thinline

Thanks for the information, that's interesting.

I hate to sound like a shill but rules exist for a reason.
One of the rules is that if you're planning to throw a wrench in the day of your fellow citizens by having a demonstration on the streets, you have to get permission. That seems fair to me, after all it's free you just have to take the time to fill out the paperwork.
But, if you don't have a permit, and if you disrespect the cops (who unless they prove otherwise, deserve our respect ((as does every person)) who show up to enforce the law, then you get arrested.
Seems to me if you can't deal with that reality then you shouldn't knowingly break the law.
grumble.

reply to post by kenochs


You are absolutely correct. It's a matter of freedom of speech versus freedom of movement. That is why the permit is required. That is why they have "Free Speech Zones" It's not to limit your freedom of speech it's to maximize the freedom of everyone else in the area to be able to go about their business as normal without interruption.

Once these kids went outside of that permitted protest area and time they no longer can be considered protesters. They are then rioters. Their actions and the posted intent of their actions support that they are just rioters and not protesters.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Exemplar

 

The ones that were confronting the police sure were. The ones that were at the peaceful permitted protest might not have been. But you don't see that many videos about the peaceful protest that happened now do you? Of course you don't. Why? Because that would ruin the slant and spin people want to put on this as to show what meanies and bullies the police were.

As it has been said before, you don't punish everyone because of a few bad eggs, you go after the problem instead of a "gas em all, ask questions later attitude". You can't possibly tell me that they didn't have the manpower to pull this off. They pretty much had a standing army. The majority of protests were peaceful, were not wearing black masks and were not breaking windows.

I'm not saying all of the people involved with the protest were that way. Of course we haven't been discussing the legal and permitted protest this entire time either, we have however been talking about the idiots who don't quite understand peaceful protests, (personal hygiene), and what it's like to actually have a job. People are way too PC nowadays. I refuse to sugar coat things.

How do you know that they are idiots or have no jobs? You don't. Period. More baseless character attacks. What does hygiene have to do with this?

I know if your one of those people who think that all cops are bad guys that go around tazing people for kicks and giggles, there is nothing that I can say that is going to make you change your mind. I accept that.

I am not one of those people. I love the majority of police, but would be a fool to think that there are no bad ones. They are only human, just like us.

But ponder this. What would happen if you had a ton of people that had no permit and had no other business in an area all masked holding signs and chanting along with their pet flaming dumpster? Wouldn't that be a cause to worry? What if these same people were smashing up windows, and in general causing a ruckus? Would you just allow them to destroy your town? If the police did nothing don't you think this thread would be about the lack of action during horrific riots and how the government failed to act even though a violent riot was burning down half of Pittsburgh? I think it would.

Ponder this. A handfull of politicians come into your town and get a legion of armed and armored mean to seal off the city. Wouldn't that be a cause to worry? What if these same people that had sworn to protect and serve you begin throwing flashbang grenades and teargas into crowds of innocent people, and in phalanx formations and using intimidation tactics and sound weapons to force the civilians into small areas where they are held, sometimes assaulted and arrested. And those that wanted to leave were not allowed. Do you think these gestapo tactics would upset the people of this city? I think it would.

So the cops get to take the heat as bad guys once again and the people of Pittsburgh can at least know that they have their businesses intact.

So the innocent protestors take the heat because of a handful of anarchists, some which were undercover police, and the police that came from all over the area get a large bonus for "protecting and serving". The police deserve to take the heat in this situation just as much as the anarchists do.

reply to post by whatukno


I think I have found our problem.
My first post in this thread was based on the video in the begining of the thread in which a young man is telling what happened.
I had not viewed the other posts or the other videos.
Though I now have a more full understanding of what happened, I still have a problem with the way the police handled the situation.
I do not understand why persons destroying property were not arrested on the spot (unless they were police plants, as has been suggested).
The actions of the police officers in the first clip were criminal.
To gas an already subdued suspect is quite clearly against the law.
While these actions may not rise to the level requiring execution, they do meet the requirements for inter-agency disipline.
The actions were clearly premeditated.
I stand by my statement that I have not dishonored my oath.
Thank you for calling my attention to the other videos posted, they did help me understand you'r position even if I still disagree with it.
The enlightenment brought by the other videos definitley narrowed the disagreement on my part.
Thanks again.
Sincerely
Luminaught

[edit on 19-11-2009 by Luminaught]

[edit on 19-11-2009 by Luminaught]

reply to post by Exemplar


Please don't give me that crap! These people were protesting outside of the permitted protest area out of the time that the protest was organized for. They deserved everything that happened to them. If you dumb enough to try and protest outside of your designated protest area you are going to get the gas.

How many protests happen in this country without indecent? That ought to answer your question.

These people were being dumb asses and they got what was coming to them. They were illegally protesting and refused to disperse and so got what they asked for. Why whine about it now?

reply to post by whatukno


People like you make me sad. Soon we will need permits to breathe.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Exemplar

 

Please don't give me that crap! These people were protesting outside of the permitted protest area out of the time that the protest was organized for. They deserved everything that happened to them. If you dumb enough to try and protest outside of your designated protest area you are going to get the gas.

How many protests happen in this country without indecent? That ought to answer your question.

These people were being dumb asses and they got what was coming to them. They were illegally protesting and refused to disperse and so got what they asked for. Why whine about it now?

Where do you get that they wouldnt disperse? Everywhere they tried to the cops surrounded them and wouldn't let them leave. Nothing was being thrown or burned, there was no chaos to speak of. Its intimidation and entrapment.

Looks like the US goverment is afraight of something, else they wouln'd act like this.

I'm from the Netherlands, and these tactics aren't even used on rioting hooligans here. a riot police want's a crowd to disperce. Surrounding them is a tactic to arrest everyone. doesn't add up here!

Originally posted by Exemplar
reply to post by whatukno

 

People like you make me sad. Soon we will need permits to breathe.

It won't be a permit, it'll be a tax, but don't count on being allowed to protest against it.

Exemplar, spliff4020, Koka,

If the police did nothing this thread would be about how the government failed to act during a major riot. The second these punks decided to protest outside of the permitted area and decided to start smashing windows, burning dumpsters rolling dumpsters into police lines they stopped being Peaceful Protesters they started being rioters.

It's just the sad truth, sorry you don't like it, but it's what happened. You can ignore that this really happened and delude yourself into thinking that these were just peace loving people with a message all you want, it doesn't change the fact that they were rioters. It doesn't change the fact that they confronted the police and caused property damage. It doesn't change the fact that they rioted off the protest route.

It's fine, blame the big bad cops all you want. It won't change anything. People need to take personal responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others.

Inciting a riot is illegal, if your in the area with people who are inciting a riot and don't leave when the cops repeatedly tell you to, your part of that riot. Don't give me that "they completely surrounded them" BS I don't buy that at all.

But maybe your right, maybe the cops should have just placed a bunch of snipers on the rooftops to take out the few that were starting trouble instead of using less than lethal force on the whole crowd. Would that have been better? Dude throws a rock or bottle *bam* no more rock thrower. The peaceful protesters get to go on with their unplanned blockage of every street they want to and only the ones that, say, light a dumpster on fire get taken down.

Would that be better?



[edit on 11/19/2009 by whatukno]

reply to post by whatukno


You seem quite sure that the police used just and judicious force.. But I have to ask, why were they billy clubbing people in the back and macing suspects they had already arrested and detained? I do agree that the protesters were out of line, but the police took it way too far. With the manpower they had, they could have simply arrested the troublemakers individually and dispersed the protest with the other hundred cops they had there.

I'm not saying the protesters had the right to go doing whatever they want, but are YOU saying that you think the police were in line when they maced people who were already neutralized as a threat?

reply to post by Jackboot.Heel

I'm not saying the protesters had the right to go doing whatever they want, but are YOU saying that you think the police were in line when they maced people who were already neutralized as a threat?

No, I'm not saying that the police did everything right either. Your right, they could have just arrested individuals and broke up the riot quietly. However that is the risk your going to take if you go along with people that pre planned to riot.

I can't defend rioters however. Some on this thread would have loved to have seen these rioters burn Pittsburgh to the ground. They would have lauded it as a great day for freedom of speech. I can't agree with those viewpoints.

Originally posted by spliff4020

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Exemplar

 

Please don't give me that crap! These people were protesting outside of the permitted protest area out of the time that the protest was organized for. They deserved everything that happened to them. If you dumb enough to try and protest outside of your designated protest area you are going to get the gas.

How many protests happen in this country without indecent? That ought to answer your question.

These people were being dumb asses and they got what was coming to them. They were illegally protesting and refused to disperse and so got what they asked for. Why whine about it now?

Where do you get that they wouldnt disperse? Everywhere they tried to the cops surrounded them and wouldn't let them leave. Nothing was being thrown or burned, there was no chaos to speak of. Its intimidation and entrapment.

The protesters started in a park that is around 400 X 500 Sf (per google maps) then got arrested in another grassy area that is around 1200 X 1000 Sf (per google maps) I wasn't there, but traveling from one grassy area to another sounds like if the protesers wanted to disperse they could. That would have made a bad video, and wouldn't help the guy in the video get girls (or boys)

omg this just terrified the crap out of me
i saw this kind of stuff in dreams when i was 25
i need to know why this happened

reply to post by catalyzt


Because the kids decided that it was open season for mayhem on Pittsburgh and the cops fought back.

Pretty simple.

reply to post by whatukno


What's it like to see everything in black and white? It's not that simple.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Exemplar

 

Please don't give me that crap! These people were protesting outside of the permitted protest area out of the time that the protest was organized for. They deserved everything that happened to them. If you dumb enough to try and protest outside of your designated protest area you are going to get the gas.

How many protests happen in this country without indecent? That ought to answer your question.

These people were being dumb asses and they got what was coming to them. They were illegally protesting and refused to disperse and so got what they asked for. Why whine about it now?

Funny thing is, if they had stayed in the protest area, nobody would have even made a video for us to get all uppity about. They got the attention they wanted. Legal protests fall on deaf ears.

reply to post by earthdude

Funny thing is, if they had stayed in the protest area, nobody would have even made a video for us to get all uppity about. They got the attention they wanted. Legal protests fall on deaf ears.

If that is your idea of getting your message out your doing it wrong.