The Ancients Series | Part II: Indians

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Thanks for the explanation, it makes a lot more sense now. So Childress has composed that 'passage' from various parts, that explains why some of the members were previously saying that they were sure that the passage was in the Mahabharata, when in fact they saw only certain sections in different parts of the Mahabharata.

I prefer to look at it as a metaphorical story, and not a historical event. The reason i included the nuclear warfare theory in the opening post was because it has sparked interest in the past, and it turns out that the passage wasnt a complete fabrication, rather an attempt at manipulating the translation to suite the authors own needs.

reply to post by Indigo_Child

As our understanding of the Universe slowly increases we use some of the knowledge gained to predict and describe certain phenomena such as our Sun. At one time it was thought that our Sun was wood or coal burning in the sky until the atomic age when it then becomes a nuclear reaction. A similar process seems to be going on here with the events that were recorded in the Sanskrit, or at least the assumption that this event was due to a nuclear reaction caused by a device that was created and used in our distance past. I think that this is jumping to conclusions and this is where the errors will be found.

There is another explanation for such an event that is a natural interaction between celestial bodies. I have hinted about this in other threads yet the whole theory I have in mind deserves a thread all its own due to the complexity. However, in summary it is based upon the theory of an Electric Universe that describe an electrical interaction between our Sun and the objects floating around in orbit.

Many of the ancient myths and testaments describe celestial events that read very much like a disruption of planetary orbits and interactions between Earth and numerous objects including our Moon, Mars, Mercury and Venus. This is not a very popular scientific explanation by the way. The idea is that the amount of electrical potential an object has is equal to the mass of the Sun and inversely so to the square of its distance. In other words our Sun puts out a lot of electrical energy and the planets adsorb this energy, the further the planet's orbit the less energy it will contain.

If an object in a highly elliptical orbit comes from the outer solar system it will start to have interesting interactions as it approaches the Sun (this describes a comet). The boundary for such a reaction is somewhere between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. An electrical interaction between the Sun's electricity in space and this object with a low electrical potential (ground) creates a comet tail. This reaction becomes explosive when the object come into close proximity to an orbiting planet like Mars or Earth or even more so with the Sun (comets colliding with the Sun have explosive reactions).

A massive interaction of plasma and lightning discharges between worlds would go a long way in explaining many of these unbelievable weapons and events described here. This is a new idea for me so I am trusting my sources along with my own logic and reason. What I have been learning about plasma interactions fits in beautifully with what has been described within these myths. More specifically this is an anode-cathode electrical arcing (or arc wielding) and the results would seem to match perfectly what is being expressed in these myths except for the amount of radio activity. I don't think these electrical interactions would produce radio active material but maybe I'm wrong.

If you think that lightning contains to little energy to make such a large impression then consider that as the theory goes this is how the Grand Canyon was created on Earth and Valles Marineris on Mars and in a very short period of time (perhaps hours or days). Subsequently events like these were witnessed and told about by the survivors which has been intertwined into their religion and culture as well as is apart of ours.

If you think, like I first did, that this sounds absurd because science knows all about our solar system and what comets are, then think again. What I found, and continue finding, is a pile of evidence that science is wrong on a huge number of things and they refuse to accept these errors let alone correct them.

reply to post by serbsta


I think the truth is between mythology and history. In all ancient texts we find mythology and history is mixed up, such as with the Illiad. The Mahabharata is basically the Indian version of the Illiad, and just as is the case of Illiad, there is historical evidence existing that suggests the Mahabharata really did take place. However, to what extent the real Mahabharata has been mythologised in the epic is open to wide questioning. If it is not mythologised at all, then we must accept these descriptions of intercourse between gods and other non-human beings to be real and other miracles and magical occurences, as well as these divine weapons. But more likely than not, there is mythology present and we need to separate them out.

The Mahabharata war by Indian dating took place in 3139 BCE, and a geneology of kings from that period to the Gupta period is recordered by many Indian texts. There are also Greek records which corroborate the same dates. This places the Mahabharata war in the Indus Valley civilisation timeframe and certainly the descriptions of the cities found in the Mahabharata correspondly with the Indus valley cities.

However, Western scholarship do not accept the Indian dates for the Mahabharata and the geneology of kings, because it would mean that the Vedic age precedes the Indus valley civilisation by a long margin, making the Indus valley a late-vedic civilisation. This would mean Western scholarship would have to completely discard their current timeline of Indian history and accept the Indian subcontinent as the homeland of the original Indo-Europeans.

According to Western dating of Indian history the Indus valley civilisation is not Vedic but Dravidian. The Dravidians were the original dark skinned natives of India, that were driven out of their cities and into South India by the invading Indo-Aryans or Vedic people, who were nomadic, barbarian and anti-urban. This event took place in 1500BCE and in 1200BCE the Vedic age began with the writing of the Vedas. The first texts within this age were the Vedas, followed up by the Upanishads, then the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata, and finally the Puranas. This narrative of Indian history is the most widely accepted and taught as fact in the modern education system. The fact that it is completely contradicts India's own recorded history is omitted.

However, recently in Indology the accepted history of India is now being challenged by scholars. There are many problems with this narrative, and I will mention some

1. Frawley's paradox: On one hand we have masses of archeaological evidence of ancient Indian cities with no textual evidence associated with them, and on the other hand we have masses of texual evidence associated with the Vedics but no archeological evidence associated with them.

2. Historical development is too fast: In the narrative the early Vedic people are primitive, pastrol, anti-urban, ritualistic, polytheistic around 1200BCE. By 1000BCE Vedics are sophisticated, democratic, philosophical, urban and scientific with monotheistic systems of thought.
By 500BCE entirely new religions are already forming like Buddhism and Jainism.

3. There are no records in Indian dating of the Vedics having a home outside of India. On the contrary, the Vedic texts describe the geography of India and refer to it as their only homeland. Interesingly, the Vedic engineering texts describe brick houses and prescribe standardized ratios for bricks which match the Indus valley brick houses.

4. Most of the scientific dating of the Vedas and Mahabharata that has been undertaken gives very early dates of up to 7000BCE, pushing the Vedic age to 10,000 years ago.

5. The Indus valley civilisation in terms of its general aesthetic, customs and values is continious with later Indian society, even up until modern times.

6. Max Muller, the author of Aryan invasion theory, himself admitted it was purely speculative in his later life and said the Vedas could be thousands of years older than he initially proposed. There is actually no evidence for the 1200BCE date, it seems to be an outright fabrication.


After my research I have concluded that the Indian dating is in fact correct and that it is most probable the Mahabharata took place in 3139BCE and the Western dates have been fabricated for colonial agendas. This basically forces us to reevaulate the history of human civilisation. As it suggests as early as 3000BCE, human civilisation on this planet was as complex in philosophical, scientific and urban thought as described in the Mahabharata.

Now here is more food for thought if the Mahabharata really did take place around 3000BCE and the decriptions of the weapons used are real, it would explain why the first Indus valley excavations revealed masses of skeletons on the roads as if a huge calamity had befallen them and the rumoured radiation and vitrified rocks. There possibly is a massive archeological cover-up here as it could suggest an advanced civilisation prior to the traditional 10,000 year timeframe.

Edit: Too correct Indian dates of the Mahabarata

[edit on 4-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by serbsta


hey sebsta great post...just wanted to add some more.
what do you think about the theory put forward by this blogger?
aum-in-crete-and-america.blogspot.com...

and the following that mecca is a hindu shrine established by king vikramaditya?this theory is quite popular among hindus in india.
www.hinduism.co.za...

please do give your views.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by andrewsymonds]

reply to post by Harte


hi harte,
i would like to correct you on bhagvat puran ..
your description of bhagvat puran is totally wrong.
it is a sacred book dedicated to lord vishnu,consisting of hymns and details of his experiences.
maybe you are confusing it with with bhagvat gita or shrimad bhagvat gita or garud puran or shiv puran,vishnu puran ,ramayan,rakshas puran ,raavan samhita.....

i would like your views.

Originally posted by andrewsymonds
reply to post by serbsta

 

hey sebsta great post...just wanted to add some more.
what do you think about the theory put forward by this blogger?
aum-in-crete-and-america.blogspot.com...

Well he concludes that India was the spiritual and ultimately technological, etc. mother of civilizations from the Maya to the Indians of the Americas. Why i can completely understand his viewpoint due to underlying similarities shared by all the cultures, i take a different stance. I attribute these fundamental similarities between the Maya, Aztec, Toltec, Olmec, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hebrews, Indians, Hopis, etc. to a yet unknown third party civilization which provided a legacy for these civilizations. It would explain their sudden rise and the similarities.

I'm not too sure about my views on Mecca.

Originally posted by andrewsymonds
reply to post by Harte

 

hi harte,
i would like to correct you on bhagvat puran ..
your description of bhagvat puran is totally wrong.
it is a sacred book dedicated to lord vishnu,consisting of hymns and details of his experiences.
maybe you are confusing it with with bhagvat gita or shrimad bhagvat gita or garud puran or shiv puran,vishnu puran ,ramayan,rakshas puran ,raavan samhita.....

The Bhavat Puran and the Srimad Bhagvat are the same book.
Note the title at the top of the linked page.

Your description is correct though. I didn't mean to characterize the entire tome as the story of Dhruva Maharajah.
Here's part of the section concerning him:

(28) The sage Maitreya said: 'After hearing the speeches pouring like honey from the chief associates of the Lord, took the one so dear to Him, offering the sages his obeisances and accepting their blessings, a purifying bath and performed e his daily duties. (29) In worship having circumambulated that best of positions and also having proved his respects to the two of them, he with his form lighting up like gold, was ready to board the heavenly vehicle. (30) Then the son of Uttânapâda could see death personified approaching him and putting his feet on his head, he ascended that wonder as big as a house. (31) At that moment kettledrums and mridangas [drums of worship] and small drums and such resounded while the singers of liberation sang and flowers showered like rain. (32) As he was about to ascend to the abode of heaven, Dhruva instantly remembered Sunîti and thought: 'How can I go to the world over the worlds leaving behind my poor mother?' (33) Understanding Dhruva's worries, showed the two superior ones of enlightenment him how she, ahead of him, was on the path of reaching her divinity. (34) On his way passing one after another all the heavenly spheres around, was he covered by even more flowers, here and there showered on him by the ones enlightened from their own elevated positions. (35) Surpassing the three worlds traveling by God, he even went beyond the great sages, after which the accomplished Dhruva then achieved the refuge of Vishnu. (36) For certain are it only those who constantly engage in welfare activities who reach that place which, radiating by its self-effulgence, illumines everywhere all the three worlds; not the ones who didn't manage to be merciful with other living beings. (37) Peaceful, equipoised, pure and pleasing to all living beings they easily reach, befriended with His devotees, the abode of the Infallible One. (38) Thus became Dhruva, the son of Uttânapâda, on the supreme path of Krishna, as pure as the summit-jewel of the three worlds. (39) With great force and speed unceasingly connected encircles the sphere of the luminaries [the galaxy] that place, o Kaurava [Vidura's family name], like a herd of bulls around a central pole.

That's from Canto 4 Chapter 12, Bhagavata Purana. LINK

The above is the part that was re-written by fringers trying to claim that Dhruva was travelling in space. If you read the entire chapter, you see that it's really about the death of Dhruva, grandson of Brahma, who had through penance and a holy life qualified to live with Vishnu in Nirvana.

Harte

Harte

what do you make of the rest of the texts which are not "fringer" quotes, in which they take flight in celestial cars, piloting them with their minds? many passages in this section:

The Mahabharata, Book 18: Svargarohanika Parva
www.sacred-texts.com...

or flying city being hurled into the sea:

The Mahabharata, Book 7: Drona Parva

Putting forth his prowess, Madhava hurled unto the sea the Daitya city called Saubha, (moving) in the skies, protected by Salwa, and regarded as impregnable.

www.sacred-texts.com...

and then there's a celestial car of precious metals, scudding threw the sky!

Mahabharata, Book 7 Vana Parva

Then O king, the wicked Salwa, thus afflicted by the Vrishnis, mounted on his car of precious metals, and leaving Dwaraka scudded through the skies!'"

www.sacred-texts.com...

and here we have indra's many headed iron weapon, blowing up stuff

Rig Veda Book 10, Hymn LV

The Hero, waxing, after draughts of Soma, blew far from heaven the Dasyus with his weapon.
www.sacred-texts.com...

here's an entire section on flying cars
tiny.cc...

it's frankly, irrelevant, whether or not "fringers" pick out concepts from the actual text and tie them together, since the stories do basically say the same thing anyway! indra's many-headed iron weapon, destroys cities, for example. things fly, some things fly with the power of thought. some flying things, are impregnable and can become invisible. the more you read this stuff, the more it sounds way more advanced than we've been lead to believe possible in the distant past.

Originally posted by undo
Harte

what do you make of the rest of the texts which are not "fringer" quotes, in which they take flight in celestial cars, piloting them with their minds?

What do I make of them? I acknowledge that such passages are there.

I acknowledge as well that such passages exist in many other mythologies.

Do I believe they are truth? If that's your question then my answer is no.

I don't believe anything in any mythology unless that thing is evidenced in some way other than some ancient text.

Vimanas couldn't have been built out of nothing. Where are the foundries, the manufacturing facilities?
If energy beam weapons existed, where are the technologies that go along with such things and why do we find only bronze (and copper) age technologies in India during that period?

Of course, I'm not claiming that this lack of evidence proves anything. I am only saying that there's no reason at all to believe that vimanas ever existed.

Unless, that is, you are willing to believe that Icarus flew with bird feathers stuck to him with beeswax; and that thunder is a noise made by the bowling balls of the gods.

it's frankly, irrelevant, whether or not "fringers" pick out concepts from the actual text and tie them together, since the stories do basically say the same thing anyway!

In the case of the mistaken Mahabharata quote, I could agree with you except for the purposeful mistranslation.

For example, whatever fringer (my theory is it was Childress) put that "quote" together abused it enough to make it appear to resemble radiation poisoning (fingernails fell out vs rats eating peoples fingernails off - for example.) That level of mischaracterization borders on prevarication and I can't tolerate it.

Another example is food spoiling. The text actually says that worms and other bugs and things suddenly appeared in the food (like a Biblical plague for those of you so inclined) and not that the food spoiled for no reason. Unexplained spoilage sounds more like radiation vs. unexplained worms and maggots, which sounds more like a miraculous, and thus godly, event.

Anyway, I'm sure that nobody here just hangs on my every opinion. But you did ask.

Harte

one thing i've noticed is the translators have a huge bearing on the final reading of what you refer to as mythologies. when was it translated. who translated. where. what was the translators religious/political/scientific propensity. these all have a bearing on how the text is finally translated into english. in addition, i don't think stories of men gluing feathers on themselves discounts our technology today, so i'm not sure that's a legitimate criticism for then either.

reply to post by undo


Tell me about it. Reading translations of Sanskrit stuff especially is very confusing and frustrating, because different sources translate them differently, sometimes enough to change the meaning. However, on the whole you will find classical texts such as the Mahabharata, Ramayana, Sutras to be relatively uncontroversial because classical Sanskrit is relatively well understood and easy to compare. The problem begins with more ancient Sanskrit like Vedic Sanskrit, where translations will differ enormously and you will often them divided into different schools of translation each with their own religious, scientific and political leaning.

Western translations have colonial and christianl biases which look at Vedic writings as primitive, heaten texts of early pagans. They only want to understand them in those terms, and any philosophical or spiritual stuff is an afterthought. The reading method is historical linguistics.

Swami Dayananda's translation has nationalist and scientific biases, which look at Vedic writings as revealed by the divine and containing knowledge about everything, includng electricity and flight. It omits any kind of historical reference from the Vedas. The reading method is etymological.

Sri Aurobindo translations have spiritual and esoteric biases, which look at Vedic writings as spiritual texts, containing deep esoteric meaning which can only be realised through meditiative insight and intuition. The reading method is intuitive.

None of the translations are actually satisfactory. So I use all of them at once to gain better understanding. I think my approach has been succesful because I have a far better understanding of the Vedic writing now than most people, even experts on those subjects. My understanding comes from a wide range of sources: intuitional insight, etymological analysis, historical linguistics, contextual analysis.

Likewise, to get a proper understanding of the Mahabharata I recommend you consult every source you can find on them. Read all extant English translations, watch the 100 part subtitled Hindi television adaptation and Peter Brook's stage adaptation. This is the real way of the scholar

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note I am finding increasingly more evidence that the Mahabharata is actually a real historical event. I recently found evidence that some of the "divine" weapons described in the Mahabharata and Ramayana are actually real. They did have projectile fire-weapons, explosive like weapons, and there is strong indication of things like rockets, guns and cannons. These things are actually described in non-mythological historical texts. And the resources to produce them like saltpeter has been found in abundance in India.

The more and more I look into ancient Indian history, the more real evidence I find of an advanced civilisation existing in 3000BCE matching the descriptions of the epics. The general features decribed all match the Indus valley.

1. It is urban, cites are highly planned
2. It is seafaring
3. It is highly scientific and technological
4. It is highly commercial and industrial
5. It is democratic

Al of the features match the Indus valley which had all those features in 3000BCE. And incidentally, the Mahahbharata by traditional Indian date does in fact take place in 3000BCE. It is simply a case of putting two and two together now.

Moreover, if you look in my thread, "Advanced knowledge in the ancient world" as far as knowledge is concerned, Indian civilisation is already at modern levels. I think the evidence is clearly pointing to the fact that in 3000BCE there was a modern like civilisation in India. And if in India, possibly in other parts of the world too. I am really starting to rethink what civilisation was like 5000 years ago. I would not be surprised now if it was as modern as ours, that the world was as globalized as it it today, and a nuclear war did in fact take place then.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I would not be surprised now if it was as modern as ours, that the world was as globalized as it it today, and a nuclear war did in fact take place then.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]

I certainly believe we were at a spiritually advanced level in the times when these Epics were written, certainly more advanced than now. But when it comes to technology, despite what the Epics describe, there has been no concrete proof of such a time existing. Only a few fringe theories about nuclear radiation which in themselves are heavily flawed.

By the way. I always enjoy reading your long posts, kudos.

[edit on 10/12/2009 by serbsta]

reply to post by serbsta

Thank you so much. Discovering this series of threads of yours just made my day and will prove incredibly helpful in my own research - so far accumulated in a thread of mine 'musik me nutrit' but no link as my intent is anything but drawing people away from this one. I think a thorough understanding of these ancient civilizations is one of the most important things youth of today like myself can learn. I think you couldn't've put your efforts into anything better for the community

As much kudos as I can muster & then some

P.L.U.R.I
-B.M

reply to post by serbsta


well i came to this conclusion very slowly, over time of studying odd things in moon photos. one of pieces of info on the subject was from nasa, from the 60s, when they were first making plans for a moon base. they discussed how it would be necessary to cover the structures with lunar regolith (lunar soil), not only to insulate them from extreme temperatures but also to act as a blanket against neutrino bombardment and so forth. i realized that basically, if there were such structures on the moon, they would be covered in a layer of regolith, giving the impression of heaps of dirt. one thing lead to the next, and it was here that i realized that an advanced civilization could feasibly use nature itself without actually leaving any of the telltale signs that we do at our current level of understanding.

in other words...

they could use a rock, for example, to power something, leave no indication that it was anything other than a rock, and no one would be the wiser unless they had that level of understanding.

reply to post by serbsta


Bet you didn't expect me to show my ugly mug around these parts again Goes to show you are what's happening on ATS these days!

reply to post by Harte


"prevarication". Very nice. I was not familiar with that word. Now I am. Thank you.

Originally posted by Matyas
reply to post by serbsta

 

Bet you didn't expect me to show my ugly mug around these parts again

Goes to show you are what's happening on ATS these days!

Welcome Matyas. Didn't expect to see you around these parts.

Your insight is always welcome.

Originally posted by HarteWhere are the foundries, the manufacturing facilities? If energy beam weapons existed, where are the technologies that go along with such things and why do we find only bronze (and copper) age technologies in India during that period?

I remember seeing this said, but I couldn't remember where or who. Now that I have searched and found you again I will say this once, and then we can be over it.

Nature is a manufacturing facility. 'K.

reply to post by Harte


Hi harte,
No man....Bhagvat puran and srimad bhagvat are not the same...way too different
Plus..There are several versions available in india.The link you gave provides a VAISHNO version of the srimadbhagvat and is mostly preached in Gujarat state of india.
While the version which i have read is preached in Northern parts of india.
Any one can edit info online and fill it whatever nonsense they like(the fringers that you mentioned).
But if one reads the original texts ,only then the true meaning is understood.The original texts are in sanskrit and awadhi.

Bhagvat puran is about Vishnu and his conquest on 3 earths and srimadbhagvatam is about Vishnu's various incarnations on earth.

edited for adding more info and spell mistakes.

[edit on 13-12-2009 by andrewsymonds]

Originally posted by andrewsymonds
reply to post by Harte

 

Hi harte,
No man....Bhagvat puran and srimad bhagvat are not the same...way too different
Plus..There are several versions available in india.The link you gave provides a VAISHNO version of the srimadbhagvat and is mostly preached in Gujarat state of india.

From the site I linked:

Welcome to the site of the S'rîmad Bhâgavatam (or the Bhâgavata Purâna). Here you will find the complete and up-to-date version maintained in Sanskrit, English and Dutch of this most important sacred book of stories of India.

I'm aware that every Purana is not necessarily part of the worship of every particular sect of Hinduism. However, given that the site offers this Purana in Sanskrit (which I do not read,) I think that the site is worthy of somewhat more respect than that of, say, Childress, who is known for making a thing up and then attributing it to the Vedas in the hope that nobody will check behind him.

At any rate, I don't see how this matters. The point was about Dhruva Maharajah and his trip back to the Godhead. That story is in this "version" (if you will) and I merely set out to show that the story does not go as it was claimed in the earlier post.

I have obviously done so, for anyone that cares to read the 4th Canto of the work, which I linked.

Harte

Originally posted by undothey could use a rock, for example, to power something, leave no indication that it was anything other than a rock, and no one would be the wiser unless they had that level of understanding.

Actually I had not read this before I replied to Harte. I would like to share some of my own insight on this matter.

Let's talk of spacial dimensions.

Now, we all know from our school days the logical impossibility for a thing to be alive as we know it and exist only in the 2nd dimension. That is if one factors in digestion as a mandatory function of being alive. But lo! In the 3rd dimension it is possible! So then many beings exist which are alive in the 3rd dimension. Or could we say they are more alive than in the 2nd?

But we are four dimensional beings, perceiving the 3rd. So our life comes to us in the 4th.

By extension, those objects which we consider inanimate in the 3rd could easily be alive in the 5th dimension. Or more alive than in the 4th or 3rd. So in the 5th exist myriads more of beings than in the 3rd and 4th. Or it could be a single entity with more life. All worlds team with life, and the mystical field which separates us prevents us from rising out of our dimension into the next higher one.

Unless of course we exercise our powers of perception to lift the veil of Maya. Then all the attributes of the higher worlds become real to us.