Dream Subliminals

Does anybody want some fudge?

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I propose that the positioning of these two regions of the brain indicate that they are reliant upon each other for the communication of recent (and long term depending on individual routines) experience to the central nervous
sytem...essentially keeping the body in line with the brains reaction/interpretation of experience for the survival of the individual. In fact, The Limbic System can be
charachterized as the consolidation and reactionary distribution of the information
collected by the rest of the brain (I am sure that I am over simplifying but I think
that is a sufficient summary for now).

Now the dream process is where we 'download' experience into memory and the
amygdala draws from the associative memory to help determine physical reaction to subsequent experience.

Neuropsych studies show that hippocampectomy and other damage to the hippocampus does profoundly affect the formation of new memory. However, patients can actually still show implicit learning even with hippocampal damage. The hippocampus is certainly thought to provide a contextual perspective, but other areas of the medial temporal lobe are also important (rhinal cortices). Moreover, the likes of LeDoux still think the amygdala is a site of plasticity in certain forms of basic emotional learning.

The amygdala is thought to actually promote memory consolidation via modulating arousal-mediating neurochemicals (e.g., noradrenaline; hence why beta-blockers are shown to weaken emotional memory).

And the amygdala is well-placed to process implicit information. Predominately because it is involved in the fast thalamoamygdala subcortical route of processing. This allows rapid preparation to potential threat, even before we are actually conscious of the threat. For example, people who have complete cortical blindsight can still 'perceive' (although they can't consciously see) emotional faces etc. After the crude subcortical processing and preparation, the higher cortical processes kick in to fine-tune behavioural response.

Anyways, yeah, the notion of a close relationship between the anterior and medial temporal lobes is pretty well-established.

From the emotion side, the work of Joe LeDoux, Cahill, and McGaugh would probably interest you. LeDoux is the dude who discovered the subcortical pathway for emotion processing.

Originally posted by melatonin
This allows rapid preparation to potential threat, even before we are actually conscious of the threat. For example, people who have complete cortical blindsight can still 'perceive' (although they can't consciously see) emotional faces etc. After the crude subcortical processing and preparation, the higher cortical processes kick in to fine-tune behavioural response.

Exactly why I think that the amygdala is implicated and inherently the target of emotive subliminals!!

Thanks for the direction on research; I have much reading to do...

reply to post by MemoryShock


I haven't read all the posts on this thread yet, but I have a question about something that's been bugging me for years.

What is your theory on prophetic dreams? Perhaps dreams that the person had no apparent knowledge of the information before? I have had two of these dreams that I remember in VIVID detail from 10 years ago. I had no foreknowledge of the subject matter of these dreams before I had them (things that I had never heard before).

Any thoughts?

[edit on 10-11-2009 by UnityFT]

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Exactly why I think that the amygdala is implicated and inherently the target of emotive subliminals!!

Thanks for the direction on research; I have much reading to do...

No worries. Seeing you're coming from a dreaming perspective, you might want also to check out Mark Solms' work. I'm not a big fan for various reasons I won't go into, but he supposedly demonstrates that damage to an area of the brain called the medial frontal lobe (orbital mainly, I think) can eliminate the capacity to dream. This is based on a series of lesion patients.

Why is that interesting? Well, the orbitomedial PFC is involved in representing the emotional value of stimuli, complex emotional learning, and also integrating higher executive function/cognition with both the amygdala and visceral output. The amygdala connects through the orbitomedial/medial regions to access higher executive function (e.g., the areas we use for complex thought, planning, etc etc). So we can view the orbitomedial PFC as a key interface between emotion and cognition.

Damage to that region leads to impulsiveness, personality change (e.g., Phineas Gage), poor decision-making, failure of reversal learning (good becomes bad etc) etc etc.

[edit on 10-11-2009 by melatonin]

Odd that the brain pic on the first page looks like it has the eye of Ra printed on it.

Also, ProtoplasmicTraveler, I haven't had the pleasure of turning off all the electric devices (live in an apt). However I felt great relief 1 second before the big Canadian blackout happend, back in 2003 I think. It felt like I had just become instantly sober/clear again and I don't drink.

Originally posted by melatonin
but he supposedly demonstrates that damage to an area of the brain called the medial frontal lobe (orbital mainly, I think) can eliminate the capacity to dream. This is based on a series of lesion patients.

I read a case study on that..not sure if Solms was involved (my recollection is iffy)...but there was a (wo)man whom suffered damage preventing him(her) from short term recall...

The implications you cited are indeed interesting...

I am indeed an amateur...but I love the directions provided in this thread...

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I read a case study on that..not sure if Solms was involved (my recollection is iffy)...but there was a (wo)man whom suffered damage preventing him(her) from short term recall...

Sounds more dorsolateral frontal damage. That area is involved in working memory. The amazing thing about medial frontal damage is the patients still maintain their previous level of general cognitive ability - memory, intelligence etc.

They just do rather silly things, like blow all their cash in ridiculous ways.

The implications you cited are indeed interesting...

I am indeed an amateur...but I love the directions provided in this thread...

Yeah, it's a fascinating area - well, anything neuropsych is. That only caveat is that although implicit learning and influence is certainly a real phenomena it's a pretty subtle one.

Enjoy the digging. If you discover any important research papers you can't get, shoot me a U2U. I can probably help. Tim Wilson has a good book on the unconscious world, by the way (stranger to ourselves). Not really focused on neuro, though.



[edit on 10-11-2009 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
They just do rather silly things, like blow all their cash in ridiculous ways.

Implicating the function of long term planning? I think I read something along those lines as well...

Originally posted by melatonin
Enjoy the digging. If you discover any important research papers you can't get, shoot me a U2U. I can probably help.

Thank you. I have been frustrated in my attempts when I was "in a zone" and the most relevant links were recent research papers that I could only read the outline to. I may take you up on that...

Edit for coding.

[edit on Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:36:51 -0600 by MemoryShock]

Amazing subject , loving the information i will save this page to contribute to your findings , + k .

Originally posted by MemoryShock

Originally posted by melatonin
They just do rather silly things, like blow all their cash in ridiculous ways.

Implicating the function of long term planning? I think I read something along those lines as well...

For orbitomedial frontal? They essentially have been viewed as having 'myopia for the future' (Damasio). Hence they will take short-term rewards in the face of substantial long-term losses.

Thank you. I have been frustrated in my attempts when I was "in a zone" and the most relevant links were recent research papers that I could only read the outline to. I may take you up on that...

Yeah, do so. 'Tis a pain that much of this stuff is still behind a corporate firewall (the journals). Many researchers are making their work openly available now, though.

Take care.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Very fascinating, well researched and put together theories there my friend. The subconscious mind often tends to utilize dreams to work out things that the conscious mind sometimes has not come to grips with. Subliminal messages recorded by the subconscious mind during the waking moments of the day and evening would be likely
to subsequently come into play in our dreams as a means to more fully communicate with the conscious mind the
ideas and notions imparted.

Subliminal messages received during the dream state would be very powerful indeed.

Our minds seem to act as receivers in more ways than we consciously understand and acknowledge but in ways science is beginning to become more and more adept at understanding. Just what all the mind is capable of receiving
in the way of external stimuli is not something most people are fully or consciously aware of.

Electronics like Computers, TV’s, Refrigerators, Air-Conditioners and Cellular phones all operate on electricity much like we as humans contain and operate on electronic charge. The vibrating hum of the electrical charge all these appliances uses is audible but not discernable beyond a hum. It creates a static electric field as well as an impulse. Microwave Transmitters, Cell Phone Towers and even safe wireless electric transmissions permeate the area around us. They are barely noticeable and indiscernible to the conscious mind but what about the subconscious mind?

Some nights before going to bed I will actually experiment and unplug every electronic device in the house, even the refrigerator and air-conditioning system and turn off my cell phones and wireless devices before going to sleep.

What a difference and not only a noticeable one but a somewhat frightening ones. My dreams are much more vivid and lucid and full of strange details. Even before I start sleeping I can clearly hear other voices in my head. Could this be the subliminal broadcast from satellites or micro-wave towers I normally wouldn’t notice because of the distracting buzz of electronics in my conscious mind? I wonder. In fact I wonder a lot.

Fascinating subject my friend, it certainly warrants more delving into!

Star and flag!

Also try just flipping the breaker and turning off all the power to your house. I am going to try this as well, it sounds interesting. There is much to our minds that we do not fully understand.

Can dreams be affected by external stimuli? I think so. There are times when I have incorporated external things into my dreams. I was dreaming of being in a theator, and to make it short, the arm rest of the chair became loose an wobbly. I woke up with someone shaking me to wake me up.

I have heard of my dad dreaming of peeing over a log, and wake wetting to bed.

I'm not that much into looking for answers in my dreams or anything. Dreams tend to be like an assorted pile of stuff, emotions, memories, etc. You would be more likely to find answers if you are in an "aware" state, so you can fully process it and understand whatever it is that you are looking at. This kind of delves into subliminal stuff. Sure subliminal "programming" can be powerfull, but it's a little too robotic and un-predictabe to be trustworthy. Again, you are better off to deal with your life in the "aware" state, not be robotic like animals are every time a stimulus, or stimuli presents itself.

And all this brain/memory stuff. I mean if you remember a past life, which some people do, I would say the brain is a pretty insignificant memory device. I would say the mind isn't really a part of the brain.

I hope I have made some sense to some of you guys. I'm done. But, anyway, sure, I think that external stimuli can affect dream.

Troy

The techno-weaponry enables anyone under the gun to be receptive to the shelling. It no longer needs be implanted. It can be grown, entrained. They aren't going to build robots. They will simply morph us in to them.

Begin by tossing your cell phone. Google Tim Rifat. 10 year old technology that causes most people to make jokes about tin foil hats. Everytime I read about this stuff I can hear the roof above my area heating up with satellite impulses. Then read about narus. Stuff like this is real and makes the terminator seem tame by comparison. Hope the ptb's here at ats allow this post through.

I think you’re making far too many assumptions.

Your most problematic one is that we are capable of assimilating outside stimuli, in a meaningful way, while asleep. Experimental evidence shows that this only occurs when we are about to wake up which explains your Yankees “dream”.

Even if it were possible you are also assuming there are means by which someone can present a stimulus without using anything detectable by our senses.

You’re also claiming that dreams are a process of allocating experience to memory which is not true. There is some evidence to suggest that dreams do have a part to play in memory consolidation but as far as I’m aware this relates to semantic not episodic memory. You’re overplaying this process imo.

I think you’re over estimating the effects of conditioning, for example operant (instrumental) conditioning requires some form of reward or punishment to occur following a certain behaviour. Though this can happen unconsciously it can’t happen while you are sleeping. So your reference to unconscious instrumental conditioning occurring unconsciously is no evidence of what you are claiming. Remember that the unconscious mind and the state of being unconscious are not the same things.


To what extent do you think subliminal stimuli can effect us?

I have practised 'subliminal' programming before , a few years ago, but to be totally honest I really don't think that worked. I now use 'Bi-aural' or Binaural' beats which seemed to help me more I have better concentration and may I say I even think my memory has improved as well..
Obviously the more 'insidious' the nature the more delicate the subliminal messages would be and the less observable to the viewer.
It doesn't matter how fine the message unless is simply 'be good to each other' , subliminal advertising for companies profits is morally wrong and reprehensible in my opinion.
Besides even if your subliminly (sp) programmed you still have a choice to buy from the shop advertising or not. unless the programming says ' go into x company headquarters and sign over all your belongings' and the viewer has the irresistable urge to go to the company..

Any advertising would that I can see would be either someone like Coca-cola saying something like ' Have a coca-cola now, go out and buy it' and if that was allowed for ANY company then the Governments would jump on the bandwagon by saying ' Ask not we can do for you , but what you can do for us' or , ' we own you, do not question us'.

The people will no doubt rebel against any advertising, and I myself have even thought about should I ever have enough money to buy a media station I would actively participate in subliminal programming myself, but have 2 channels both showing the same programs one with subliminal messages the other without, but all the subliminal messages would be the good , productive kind.
Any ANY program or show that people wanted me to air would have to be vetted for any unwarrented SM's.


[edit on 11/11/09 by DataWraith]

reply to post by wormwood13


S&F.

I really need to think about this a lot more, but at the moment, I plan to lose my tinfoil hat and paper my bedroom with foil instead.







[edit on 11-11-2009 by soficrow]

Originally posted by Mike_A
I think you’re making far too many assumptions.

Your most problematic one is that we are capable of assimilating outside stimuli, in a meaningful way, while asleep. Experimental evidence shows that this only occurs when we are about to wake up which explains your Yankees “dream”.

Even if it were possible you are also assuming there are means by which someone can present a stimulus without using anything detectable by our senses.

I think you just ignored the possibility of all drugs that are out there that can cause psychedelic episodes that could be considered the source of that stimulus.

The OP used advertisements rather than drugs as a first basis case, so I think your assumption of detection is limited only to that case. There are more voluntary causes that can be thought of besides advertisements, like drugs for example.

I'm sure someone will try be ignorant towards drugs with statements like "it is not possible for drugs to do that." Although, the truth is that they haven't discovered if is possible for drugs to do such a dream subliminal, pre-programed interaction. With the science behind nanobots, these little devices pave the way for the possibility. Nanobots may seem more mechanical than the common drugs we know now, yet if they can do exactly the same thing (or cause the same effect) as those drugs do then the possibilities are not limited to just non-mechanical methods.

In other words, something that is normally thought of as a mechanical device is capable of being the cause of an effect where it was thought that only non-mechanical means were possible for the cause of such effect.

reply to post by dzonatas


Behaviour modifying drugs are behaviour modifying drugs, they're not what the OP is talking about. Nor are, currently non existent, nano bots. They are three completely different mechanisms.

I love how, whenever the masters need to divert attention from themselves, they barge in with how 'this or that's not on topic'. Everything is related to the subconscious, end of story.

Are we being subconsciously affected? When are we NOT being manipulated? is more like it. Why not cut to the chase? E weapons are here to stay, and since no one seems to respect this, preferring to ridicule those who are most vulnerable to them (whistleblowers), I find it convenient to point out the 900 pound gorilla in the room, once again (has anyone noticed how thin the threads are on subjects such as microwave mind control?)

The vision was false, to quote Dr Zales. But you may awaken one fine day to find that you cannot stand up without visual cues to keep your balance. Time to run a comprehensive serology, I guess, because this could only be from leaving your underwear in the wrong place...or a microwave assault on your brain as you slept. F you if it's not on topic. F you if you scoff at this. The conscious and unconscious are all in the vault of our masters!

I imagine that the 'smart grid' will be the next obama trick. The weaponization of our utilities, just in case cell phones become unpopular, and everyone wonders why the towers won't come down.