I need help being a whistle blower, to make sure I get results

Originally posted by NoJoker13
reply to post by Enigma Publius

 

How does anything get anywhere? Someone put it there but since you opened that package resonable doubt tells me that I can also blame you, your son, or your "grandmother" for doing it. Your word against theirs, again good luck.

good luck with what? I only want advice on what to do. I have already leaned a lot more than I already knew. For instance, I thought that word was "PEE", now I know what it really means. I am way more educated on this than I was on my own, so in that sense, ATS has delivered! (APPLAUSE) The skeptics and believers alike have made my opinion of this a new alloy of mixed feelings for both sides. I am pretty much of the opinion that either it depicts a birth, and a child's flawed understanding of it, or it is meant to be a joke.
In EITHER scenario, it was put there by a child makes more sense then a kid just "hanging out" at a factory.
Why do you keep going off topic to say things about my mom? putting her "grandmother" in parentheses? I gave you a link to her and LeoVirgo (my sister) making a video on youtube about her near death experience. You keep refusing to awknowledge the fact that they are real, and I even gave you a link, did the work for you.
Quit trying to ferail my thread. I welcome all opinions, because like I said, the skeptioic who told me what that word really is drasticly changed my opinion on what is shown in the srawing. I am learning much with the help of ATS users who follow basic debate decorum and stay on topic and are posting civil opinions and what have you.
I am MUCH better educated about all of this (child labor organizations, the chinese text, ect.) than I was in the beginning, so this thread is going very well for skeptics and believers alike. It was going very smoothly for both sides until you bring your off topic rants.
Again I ask you, how did the insert get in there? Do you find it an odd thing for a child to doodle? Along with my son, I have a niece and nephew from my "sister" and I see many doodles all over the place, they draw on stuff all the time when they are bored. None of their drawings were creepy like this one.
I guess you can just say "someone put it there" but I was hoping with all your sureness, you could elaborate a little bit.

In the end of all this it is going to be up to you if you decide to contact someone over this picture. But personally I would get a lawyer because if you start contacting the media and it comes out that they do not have children working in their factories then you could be sued for slander.

If it were me, and I found this picture in my son's toy container, I would chalk it up that some adult in Asia, felt it would be funny to put a picture in there.

You have to understand why we are all so critical about the picture itself. It would be no different if you saw a picture on a bathroom wall. I am sure we all saw pictures like this in our text books in high school. Where someone doodled something thinking it was funny.

While I understand it may have been shocking to you, I don't see it as a picture of someone crying and working on a line, or a child miscarrying, or any of those factors. I think you are reading into what isn't there. Its almost like you hope you found something to stop a sweat shop. Just because it came from China, doesn't mean it was made in a sweat shop.

Why do you insist a child drew this? Some people just can not draw. You also do not know how fast the person was trying to draw. I really so no reason that proves that a child drew this in any way. To me it just looks like a messy drawing. And if bad drawing really makes you think this is a child, check half the stuff that is drawing on bathroom doors daily. They are with the same skill.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Ecidemon
I'm sorry but you cannot group Socialism and Communism in the same basket. Politically they are on the other side of the spectrum from one another.

They are no different.... Socialism is just part of the stage to convert a Capitalist, and REpublics, into Communism...www.schwarzreport.org...

Oh and the source you cite would be Dr. Fred C. Schwarz? of the Christian Anti Communist Crusade? There's an unbiased source. Can we return to the OP, please. You can indulge the radical right somewhere's else.

Originally posted by canadianmouse
In the end of all this it is going to be up to you if you decide to contact someone over this picture. But personally I would get a lawyer because if you start contacting the media and it comes out that they do not have children working in their factories then you could be sued for slander.

If it were me, and I found this picture in my son's toy container, I would chalk it up that some adult in Asia, felt it would be funny to put a picture in there.

You have to understand why we are all so critical about the picture itself. It would be no different if you saw a picture on a bathroom wall. I am sure we all saw pictures like this in our text books in high school. Where someone doodled something thinking it was funny.

While I understand it may have been shocking to you, I don't see it as a picture of someone crying and working on a line, or a child miscarrying, or any of those factors. I think you are reading into what isn't there. Its almost like you hope you found something to stop a sweat shop. Just because it came from China, doesn't mean it was made in a sweat shop.

I gave you a star for your civial post, thank you, now let me address some of your points.

In the beginning, I did sday in my post that the picture showed a child on an assembly line I think. I should have chosen my words much better, given the nature of this site. What I meant to say was, it gave me the impression of a child making the drawing WHILE ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE, I didn't mean the line was in the picture, I meant that is where she must have slipped it in.
There is not a single thing in the drawing that shows a production line at all, so I understand why some are being critical of my statement there, but honestly what I meant was I thought she must have snuck in this drawing while on that assembnly line.
I do now think that the picture is more likely a joke drawing, now that I have more info thanks to users here on ATS. But I do stand firm that I believe that no matter what the photo depicts, it is still a kids drawing (look at the size difference in the legs) and how did a kid's drawing make it into a factory sealed toy? What was a child doing in a factory if not working? Just hanging out with mom or dad instead of being in school?

Was I misguided in my feelings in the beginning because of the emotional impact of thinking I was receiveing a message in a bottle? Definately. The pics I have posted show how well hidden, yet how much in open sight this ws, and I felt someone put a lot of thought into it, perhaps even risked their ilfe to do it.

Now, by this time, my opinion has somewhat changed for sure, but like I said, I still hold firm to the idea that a child put it there, and that in turn means a child was packaging it.

Can we return to the OP, please. You can indulge the radical right somewhere's else.

Thinking the same thing with many thread killing posts here. The OP was seeking affirmative steps to take. Even those who know people who know what to do should help the OP to find effective ways to deal with it..

Sovereigns, would accepting it for value be a good place to start? Could she capture her straw party and bring her to America if she could be located?

No consequencE..

Thank you.

[edit on 10-11-2009 by noconsequence]

[edit on 10-11-2009 by noconsequence]

Originally posted by canadianmouse
Why do you insist a child drew this? Some people just can not draw. You also do not know how fast the person was trying to draw. I really so no reason that proves that a child drew this in any way. To me it just looks like a messy drawing. And if bad drawing really makes you think this is a child, check half the stuff that is drawing on bathroom doors daily. They are with the same skill.

adults are more likely to make it more crude if that's what the purpose is, igoing by your own olgic I am mentally comparing this to drawings I have seen in bathrooms, and they were more crude in EVRY SINGLE CASE. And adult doing this as a joke would likely have made it more offensive. It looks MUCh more likely to anyone thinking about it that it's a childs attempt to be crude, because they only halfweay succeeded. An adult would have ACYUALLY MADE IT OFFENSIVE instead of just making a pass at it.
Note the legs and the difference in size. An adult is much more likely to get the proportions closer. I bet anyone who knows more about analyzing these things would say that this has the characteristics of a child more so than an adult.
So, I have give reasons now why I believe it was made by a child. Give me some that makes you think it was an adult, then we will weigh the two.
that almost makes too much sense!!!

[edit on 10-11-2009 by Enigma Publius]

reply to post by Enigma Publius


The separation between the upper and lower body convinces me this was drawn by a child. That is a common characteristic found in the drawings of children between the ages 5-7.

Enigma Publius, I'm curious why you are not responding to my posts?

Originally posted by Enigma Publius
I am learning much with the help of ATS users who follow basic debate decorum and stay on topic and are posting civil opinions and what have you.

I, too, have enjoyed this thread.

Many times in Life, what we start with is not what we end up with. If this event was a trigger to learning something, then all the better.

Maybe HOW/WHY the drawing was put into the package is merely an interesting sidebar to learning about manufacturing/labor in general, in China in particular.

Originally posted by Enigma Publius

Originally posted by canadianmouse
Why do you insist a child drew this? Some people just can not draw. You also do not know how fast the person was trying to draw. I really so no reason that proves that a child drew this in any way. To me it just looks like a messy drawing. And if bad drawing really makes you think this is a child, check half the stuff that is drawing on bathroom doors daily. They are with the same skill.

adults are more likely to make it more crude if that's what the purpose it. And adult doing this as a joke would likely have made it more offensive. It looks MUCh more likely to anyone thinking about it that it's a childs attempt to be crude, because they only halfweay succeeded. An adult would have ACYUALLY MADE IT OFFENSIVE instead of just making a pass at it.
Note the legs and the difference in size. An adult is much more likely to get the proportions closer. I bet anyone who knows more about analyzing these things would say that this has the characteristics of a child more so than an adult.
So, I have give reasons now why I believe it was made by a child. Give me some that makes you think it was an adult, then we will weigh the two.

that almost makes too much sense!!!

again you don't know how much time this person had to get the drawing in a container to assume the age due to the drawing. If they were rushed they wouldn't have cared to make the legs the same size.

Also how do you know fart isn't crude in China? Have you lived among the culture?

This drawing doesn't strike me as a child's drawing due to the statue of the drawing. When drawing, a child will make each feature out such as fingers, toes, eye lashes, eyebrows. Kids are more into drawing detail. While the details may not look like what they are, kids will add more details into their drawings and advance through the years. This isn't that way. For a child as young as 5, they will draw fingers and toes and all their drawings are a lot larger. So drawing on a small scrap such as this would be hard for them.

This looks like more of something an adult or an teen would have drawn.

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by Enigma Publius

 

The separation between the upper and lower body convinces me this was drawn by a child. That is a common characteristic found in the drawings of children between the ages 5-7.

Enigma Publius, I'm curious why you are not responding to my posts?

Yes, my drawings used to be like that until I got a little older. That was how I did hands as well until about the age 10.
I meant to respond to you several times, but one poster in particular has been eating up much of my time just trying to prove that my mother is real and my son is not a magician!
I hope he at least clicked that link I gave him. I TOLD him about the link 2 pages ago or so, but he didn't look and still kept derailing the post, so I haven't been able to address everyone like I want.

It's my intention to respond to EVERY question posted. It's just been hard to keep up, this has been a busy thread even without the court jester doing his thing.

You make a good point, I DID used to do the transfer from torso to legs in just that same fashion when I was little.
I think for anyone spending time to analyze it, the conclusion that a kid made it is obvious. If it's an attempt at a crude joke, which now seems likely, then an adult, by that other persons logic to compare it to bathroom doodles, would have actually been offensive; not just ALMOST offensive.
I don't want to be crude but I'll even say that an adult would have drawn a pile of poop next to the word "fart". An adult would have put breasts or SOMETHING more offensive in it.

Considering that many adults in China are willing to work for the equivalent of AU$2-$5 per hour of labour, I would assume the need for children in sweat shops would be very low. Why "employ" young children when they are less likely able to complete the work as effectively as adults could?

Ethical issues aside, would you rather have 10-20 crying and whining children work for nothing or pay adults $2/hour who are more likely to complain less, make fewer mistakes and get the job done quicker?

If you truly believe that this picture came from a child and the message fits the way you described it, then listen to your heart and do what you think is right. At the end of the day, however, you may be getting worked up and worried over something that does not even exist.

[edit on 10/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by canadianmouse


I have shown this to more than a dozen other people and you are the first person to think it's the work of someone older than 10.

I would imagine in China fart is equally offensive as it is here. If this was an attempt by an adult to offend an american opening it, wouldn't it likely contain something like an american flag, or something?
And if it wasn't meant to specificly offend the country they knew it was being shipped to, why the half-hearted attempt?
I mentally compared this to drawings I have seen in bathrooms like you asked me to. And you know what? More often than not, those who make a habit of drawing that stuff practice it a lot, and have it down to an art form. I don't think I have seen anything that looks like this since I was in grade school.

There are actually books about bathroom art. It is almost always actually not only better than this, but GOOD. I know you know what I am talking about, folks that do that are proud of it, they practice it, and it's always a higher quality.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Considering that many adults in China are willing to work for the equivalent of AU$2-$5 per hour of labour, I would assume the need for children in sweat shops would be very low. Why "employ" young children when they are less likely able to complete the work as effectively as adults could?

Ethical issues aside, would you rather have 10-20 crying and whining children work for nothing or pay adults $2/hour who are more likely to complain less, make fewer mistakes and get the job done quicker?

If you truly believe that this picture came from a child and the message fits the way you described it, then listen to your heart and do what you think is right. At the end of the day, however, you may be getting worked up and worried over something that does not even exist.

[edit on 10/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Obviously you didn't read through to the end or you would have seen I have changed opinion on what the drawing depicts. A skeptic changed my mind on that. SEE, I always have an OPEN mind. I never think I am unable to be wrong, and this thread has been an ongoing process of deduction and reasoning.

Now to answer your question. I believe the factory is a mixture of both adults and children, probably a family affair. Adults do the complicated stuff and kids do the easy monkey jobs. Such as putting the colorful inserts into the loading tube.

*edited for grammar*
[edit on 10-11-2009 by Enigma Publius]

[edit on 10-11-2009 by Enigma Publius]

Originally posted by desert

Originally posted by Enigma Publius
I am learning much with the help of ATS users who follow basic debate decorum and stay on topic and are posting civil opinions and what have you.

I, too, have enjoyed this thread.

Many times in Life, what we start with is not what we end up with. If this event was a trigger to learning something, then all the better.

Maybe HOW/WHY the drawing was put into the package is merely an interesting sidebar to learning about manufacturing/labor in general, in China in particular.

I'm glad someone else sees that.

It seems like I am spending all of my time answering questions that the person who asked even knows is silly. LIke anyone suggesting my mom isn't real, to someone saying they have any logical reason to say this is the work of an adult.
At least I can give some solid opinions on why I think a child did it. I haven't seen anything that makes sense for the other side of the debate, but I ONLY WANTED TO GET ADVICE ON WHAT TO DO.

I don not want media attention, I do not want ATS ponts, I do not want to be spending all this time and energy on something false.

I honestly believe what I am typing, otherwise I wouldn't be spending time answering some of these possibe (but extremely unlikely) questions, like this being the work of an adult.
Can we at least admit that it is pretty shoptty work if it is an adult? I have no artistic ability, but if I wanted to make a crude drawing to make a crude joke for whoever opened the toy, I could do better than this within 20 seconds. I tried just a minute ago.
Shall I post the result?
just kidding, but seriously, I did it just to see how long it takes to make something higher quality and more offensive.
Give me a full minute and I'll make you blush!

I don't think you want anyone proving you wrong. I think you want a pat on the back for stopping child labour. You go ahead and try to stop it but if it turns out that company doesn't have any children employed, be prepared for a slander suit. I disagree that it is a child's drawing. It is more something an adult and a teen would do. But you are right and I am wrong. It doesn't matter I gave you examples that you can't argue. You chose instead to mention other people who have shown it too who agree it was a child. If you have other people who agree, why message on here about it? Why not take their suggestions as to who to contact?

Oh and as for them putting it in there for an American to find. How do you know they knew it was coming to the states? Maybe they thought it was being shipped to their own country? Just because they work in the factory doesn't mean they know exactly where it is going.

reply to post by canadianmouse


What is the reason you wish for her to stop her forward movement?

Enigma Publius; Don't know if you saw my above post, but are you trying to keep the original, "untouched" for forensic purposes?

No consequencE..

Thank you.

Originally posted by Enigma Publius
why the lack of attention? I am getting worried!

Please ATS, this is a shameless request to make this big, I will not make a fool out of our site, this is VERY REAL.
I don't want this getting swept under the rug, If word gets out I am sure others will come forward who found similar messages!

you're going to be fighting an uphill battle, so be prepared for disappointment. this type of activity is known, and some very influencial people, as well as solid organizations, have tried to change this type of slavery/bondage living conditions. the problem is not that you could make a difference, it is the mass and scale of it throughout the world. but remember, when you get up to a high enough point on your "chain of blame", that's when it will be swept under the rug.
but as they say, a journey starts simply by putting one foot in front of the other. so good luck.

Originally posted by canadianmouse

I don't think you want anyone proving you wrong. I think you want a pat on the back for stopping child labour. You go ahead and try to stop it but if it turns out that company doesn't have any children employed, be prepared for a slander suit. I disagree that it is a child's drawing. It is more something an adult and a teen would do. But you are right and I am wrong. It doesn't matter I gave you examples that you can't argue. You chose instead to mention other people who have shown it too who agree it was a child. If you have other people who agree, why message on here about it? Why not take their suggestions as to who to contact?

Oh and as for them putting it in there for an American to find. How do you know they knew it was coming to the states? Maybe they thought it was being shipped to their own country? Just because they work in the factory doesn't mean they know exactly where it is going.

Oh my gosh. Okay, I'll bite, but I really think you are just pulling my leg or something.

You say compare it to bathroom drawings I have seen. I have done that in my mond, and found that the work I see on stalls is always better than this, and they have some type of point. Be it to show large breasts, make a funny rhyme, something. Not just a picture of a boy or girls, then the word fart.

It is obviously someone's first attempt to join the world of crude drawings.

You say children spend more time on details. I agree. When I look at this picture, I see individual teeth in the mouth, I see eyelashes, I see ears, I see fingers instead of "mitts", they even drew the bottom eyelashes.

So there's direct replies to your logic.

As to me not wanting to be proved wrong, and wanting a pat on the back?
Look at my post history, I never have a problem admitting I am wrong. More than one post of mine has the last entry being me saying

"thank you for educating me better, mods please close this thread, the matter is solved."

or something similar. My opinion is radicly different from the start, because folks have proved me wrong, and I GAVE THEM A STAR AND THANKED THEM, AND I WAS SINCERE ABOUT IT. I even gave you a star earlier for the same reason. I would LOVE for someone to PROVE to me that an adult made this. Why?
Because I am fatigued by thrying to keep up with this, if it wasn't for my conscious (spelling?) I would have quit already.

If I thought for even a second that an adult drew this I would give up on this thread, because although I have a bleeding heart, I am human, and this is getting old.
I am growing tired of talking about this, and I believe it's made by a kid, but I wish I could just give up on it and not feel guilty about it. How's that for honesty? I am just tired of it. Does that make me cold or insensitive? I don't know, but I can't change how I feel. If I could, I'd make myself believe your shaky idea that this horrible drawing is made by an adult or teen, and go back to reading my new book I bought the other day.
I am burnt out and wish I could just not care. I am going to log off now and come back later when I am more level-headed again.

Originally posted by noconsequence
reply to post by canadianmouse

 

What is the reason you wish for her to stop her forward movement?

Enigma Publius; Don't know if you saw my above post, but are you trying to keep the original, "untouched" for forensic purposes?

No consequencE..

Thank you.

WEll I thought about that, but my son and my mother and myself had all handled it before we ever thought about forensics. You see, ast first, we thought it was funny, and we were just puzzled and passing it around asking

"what do you think this is? Does that say PEE???? HAHAHA...it says PEE!"

It took a few minutes for the reality to set in that this was made by a kid, then how did it get put in there...

WE didn't think about that right away, naturally. That is another detail that makes this seem more real I would think, if I were on the outside looking in on someone else in this situation.

If they didn't handle it and saved it for fingerprints right away, that would seem suspicious to me.

So yes, I have the origional, but no, I don't think it would hold anything worthwhile on it anymore.