Ask what you would like about the bible and christianity

reply to post by resonance



If the Bible is the holy word of God.....

How do you know that all translations are divenly inspired and not filled with political and moral interpretions of the ones doing the translation?

reply to post by whaaa


well in the OT God promises to preserve his word..the old testament exists in many forms and before it was used as a political tool like religion is today..the OT may have changed a little through interpretation but not much..if the creator of the universe says he is going to preserve his word i believe him..not to hard to keep a book intact compared to making a universe..

i am not saying the bible was not formed by people with their own agenda..more than likely yes it was..but the main point of the book is still there..that jesus christ died for our sins and through believe in him and acceptance of what he did for us we can be saved..

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by Dasher

 

well in gen 6 the hebrew is "b'nei elohim or bene elohim" this is always used of angels..when jesus says he is the son of god he literally means son as in god is his father..we are sons of man..the phrase son of man is used many times in the bible

Son of Man is most often used for Christ, and only rarely for people. Sons of God referring to Angels is circular reasoning since none of the times it is used is it proven to be any specific entity. Modern evangelical theology accepts it as being Angels, but does so without proof.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. But as I said, I believe this could indicate Angels, Fallen Angels in a twisted way, and people who are moved by God.

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by Dasher

 

the way i see the triune nature of god is like this...jesus is the fleshy representation..the holy spirit is the spiritual representation...and God is the full representation in wherever he exists (i believe god and angels to be hyper-dimensional..which i can expound on if you wish).

The issue with the Trinity is that it neglects to emphasize that the Word is God that manifested physically in Christ by proceeding from the Spirit and the Comforter manifested spiritually in the faithful by proceeding from Christ. Furthermore, the "Angel of the Lord" acting as Word in the world indicates very possibly that the Word proceeded from the Father as well. If then, proceeding from above it the requirement of being part of the Trinity, we would have more than 3 parts. We would have the Angel of the Lord (Word), the Spirit of the Lord (Spirit), Christ, Comfort, and the Brethren of Christ who are also the Sons of God. Conversely however, the Father does not proceed from anywhere. So as you can see, the Trinity fails to explain the connectedness/Oneness of God throughout the perpetual manifestations They have made and the divine/impossible Father (They) not being like anything else manifested.

We are a dichotomy (body and soul, but given a new "soul"/spirit), however, we are One. This is the same image of God and how They made us to look like them in this world. Just as marriage points to the aspects of God being Order (men) and Charity (women - even in polygamy), our own body and soul repeats this pointing to the image of God.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by resonance

 

Why is there eternal hell?

Why is there not ample proof of whatever theology they subscribe to?

Why not me, and you and others? More on this later.

Hell... a return to the Void. Consider what it would mean for a person to go into a black hole and their relative time change. One perspective will see the person disappear, however the other will see them take a paradoxically infinite amount of time to disappear. It is Eternal and Void only because of the nature of the Temporal and it's Creation from Void which is very merciful and gracious. All of the Creation has it's logical course ending in the Void from which it came, however, God promised to give abundant grace (Christ, Comfort) to some and fully lift them into Themselves. So, whether disconnection from all things or connection to all things, God's Charity is given and Order is upheld in every creature.

Your second and third questions are hard to follow.

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by resonance

 

If the Bible is the holy word of God.....

How do you know that all translations are divenly inspired and not filled with political and moral interpretions of the ones doing the translation?

The Bible is not the Word of God. However, it speaks about the Word of God. This is a great misunderstanding by the Church (along with things like the Trinity).

The following scripture should put some light on what The Word is and also emphasize the idea of Void (before Creation), Temporal (us, the Creation), and Eternal (the Creators).

Jhn 1:1-5
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jhn 1:12-14
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


So we see which part of the unseeable God (Word) manifested Themselves to make us, we see that we were made from the Void, that connection to God is a gift and not a result of our own attainment or choice, and that the Word is Christ.

Conversely, Christians generally teach that the Father is also manifested (by declaring the Father as a person without proof of personage), they teach that Hell is a created place of torture as opposed to the natural cycle of creatures (similar to how we come from the dirt and return to the dirt, life from the void returns to the void if not preserved by God), they teach generally that making "good choices" are what begins the process of salvation within a person, and they teach that the Word is the bible. These things are all false.

Furthermore, Abraham had no scriptures and yet he had the Word of God written in his heart. What a great faith he was given to understand with seeing far less than we do of God's creation and scriptures! So, regarding the fallibility of scriptures, I agree. They are flawed and several times manipulated with biased interpretation (666 changed to 616 to accommodate language change, 1 John 5:7 dealing with the Trinity was not in any early manuscripts, etc). However, the Word of God is not the scriptures themselves. It is spoken of in the scriptures and the Word is without error. Though, I do agree that scriptures are inspired and very useful... even deuterocanonical writings. Just to note, Christ quoted from deuterocanonical writings once that I can recall off the top of my head, so He was not opposed either. The primary issue is whether or not Truth is being communicated, for Word is Truth.

Originally posted by Dasher

the way i see the triune nature of god is like this...jesus is the fleshy representation..the holy spirit is the spiritual representation...and God is the full representation in wherever he exists (i believe god and angels to be hyper-dimensional..which i can expound on if you wish).

The issue with the Trinity is that it neglects to emphasize that the Word is God that manifested physically in Christ by proceeding from the Spirit and the Comforter manifested spiritually in the faithful by proceeding from Christ. Furthermore, the "Angel of the Lord" acting as Word in the world indicates very possibly that the Word proceeded from the Father as well. If then, proceeding from above it the requirement of being part of the Trinity, we would have more than 3 parts. We would have the Angel of the Lord (Word), the Spirit of the Lord (Spirit), Christ, Comfort, and the Brethren of Christ who are also the Sons of God. Conversely however, the Father does not proceed from anywhere. So as you can see, the Trinity fails to explain the connectedness/Oneness of God throughout the perpetual manifestations They have made and the divine/impossible Father (They) not being like anything else manifested.

We are a dichotomy (body and soul, but given a new "soul"/spirit), however, we are One. This is the same image of God and how They made us to look like them in this world. Just as marriage points to the aspects of God being Order (men) and Charity (women - even in polygamy), our own body and soul repeats this pointing to the image of God.

Please define the Trinity?

Your above explanation is a straw man. The "Word" is Christ and not a separate Being. Am I correct to understand that you have included the "Brethren of Christ" as part of the Trinity?

Again I would ask you to then define the doctrine of the Trinity?

Originally posted by Dasher

Originally posted by Neo__
Yea, I figured you were going to say that. It's the only answer there could be if you believe that Genesis is only account of our history.

Add incest to the long list of illegal and immoral acts in the bible. These words of God, as they are interpreted, are not really relevant to today's world are they?

Thanks for your answer.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by Neo__]

Please have some consideration for ancient and weaker cultures. While we find these things to be below us, they have been necessary at times in history, even apart from the scriptures. I would like to add, though, I tend to believe that Adam and Eve are more of a conceptual way to communicate how we were made, have progressed, and are supposed to interact with each other and our Creators.

Generally speaking, I would not be offended if we were made as one and then two from the beginning, or if we evolved from animals in some way. The important thing to consider is that we became spiritually aware, clothed ourselves and developed naming systems. These were the beginning stages of development from animals to judges (Adam). With faith, judges are transformed into good judges and further in time, good judges (Christ was the firstborn spiritually) are glorified into Unity with Judges. Understand that Judges is the name of God and Their goodness and perpetuity are implicated further in alternate names (YHWH, etc).

The scriptures which speak of the Word of God are very relevant, and while more often read than any time in history, are grossly misunderstood and misrepresented.

Please have grace on me. I am only trying to offer a bridge of connection through understanding. I am not trying to be adversarial.

You're absolutely right Dasher and, Resonance, I apologize, I was insincere in my reply to your answer. You answered my question with honesty.

The puzzle of Cain's wife seems to be the first of many questions people have about the Bible. I actually give much credence to the story of Adam and Eve but only from a mythological and symbolic point of view. The eating of the fruit of good and evil symbolizes to me the separation of the sexes and the beginning of a long journey into time and space, a "conditioning" of suffering that is only resolved when one becomes "One with God" (again). That the soul "impressed" life on Earth and manifested as male and female seems very reasonable to me. Did the soul Humanity begin as a single man and woman or did the soul manifest through a many forms over time. It's all a matter of belief, I suppose.

Resonance, perhaps another question is warranted here. Did Moses write the 29 books of the Hebrew Scriptures, aka the Old Testament? I ask this because if he did then it was almost certain that he was versed in the Egyptian beliefs. One of the most famous Egyptian myths is that of Osiris who was happily married to Isis, his sister, the "Queen of Heaven". Osiris' older brother Seth was envious of them and he killed and cut Osiris into fourteen (twice seven) pieces and spread those pieces across the land. Isis loved Osiris so much she reassembled his corpse and Osiris was transformed into Hawk. They then give birth to Horus, the last of divine sovereigns in Egypt.

Could it be possible that the story of Cain and Able, complete with murder and incest, had it roots in Egyptian myths? see Osiris and Christianity for one reference to this concept.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


I always assumed the "Word" to be great sound that started the Universe.

Just like Graeme Edge sang with the Moody Blues:

This garden universe vibrates complete.
Some we get a sound so sweet.
Vibrations reach on up to become light,
And then thru gamma, out of sight.
Between the eyes and ears there lay,
The sounds of colour and the light of a sigh.
And to hear the sun, what a thing to believe.
But it's all around if we could but perceive.
To know ultra-violet, infra-red and X-rays,
Beauty to find in so many ways.
Two notes of the chord, that's our fluoroscope.
But to reach the chord is our lifes hope.
And to name the chord is important to some.
So they give a word, and the word is OM.

reply to post by Neo__

There isn't one version of the Osiris myth.
What we have today are a lot of versions.
Whey come from individual's tombs where that person's understanding of the story was painted on the wall inside their tomb, to remind them to do the right things in their journey into the underworld.
So there is no one version, but there is at least two versions very reminiscent to the Cain and Able story, but the roles are reversed in them, where the farmer was the one who was killed by the herdsman.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Neo__

 

There isn't one version of the Osiris myth.
What we have today are a lot of versions.
Whey come from individual's tombs where that person's understanding of the story was painted on the wall inside their tomb, to remind them to do the right things in their journey into the underworld.
So there is no one version, but there is at least two versions very reminiscent to the Cain and Able story, but the roles are reversed in them, where the farmer was the one who was killed by the herdsman.

And probably way more than two. This is the Biblical account of the first murder and ever since conflict between brothers are found in all our myths and religions.

Two brothers always represent duality between good and evil. Romulus killed Remus in the field with a shovel and "whilst still an infant, we are told that Hercules killed his twin. He was no longer a divided entity, no longer a duality, but soul and body formed one unity."

Cain and Abel is an old story involving duality and humanity's seemingly never ending conflict between the polar opposites. Good-bad, positive-negative, light-darkness. Together they always make one.

reply to post by Neo__


well first..no one thinks moses wrote the entire OT lol..he wrote the first 5..and it seems that people always says stories from the bible came from other religions...the problem is..these religions dont predate the OT..which cain and able comes from...maybe all these ancient religions drew from the OT..

sure they predate christianity..but the entire NT is prophesied in the OT..

I have a question. It is said that the penalty for sins is death. When it says this, it doesn't mean physical death, because we all die. It is talking about the death of the soul.

1. How does Jesus pay the price for all sins of man through only physical death? If he is resurrected, then his soul does not die, thus he does not actually pay the price of the sins.

2. If he died for all mans sin, then why does it not include people who do not believe in him? Considering all of history the majority of people in the world didn't believe in Jesus, doesn't that really mean he only died for a minimum and minority of people?

3. How come Jesus doesn't tell people he is a sacrifice? When the rich man approaches Jesus, why does Jesus tell him things that are much different than what Christianity and the church say? Jesus turns the rich man away, but the church says that rich man is fine and only need to believe in Jesus. If this is true, then why doesn't Jesus also tell this to the rich man? The rich man even said he believed Jesus was the son of god. Was Jesus playing tricks on the rich man?

4.

Matthew 9

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo

The issue with the Trinity is that it neglects to emphasize that the Word is God that manifested physically in Christ by proceeding from the Spirit and the Comforter manifested spiritually in the faithful by proceeding from Christ.

I always thought that the Comforter was the holy ghost?
(John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost..)

Furthermore, the "Angel of the Lord" acting as Word in the world indicates very possibly that the Word proceeded from the Father as well.

Could the Angel of the Lord actually be the pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ ?

If then, proceeding from above it the requirement of being part of the Trinity, we would have more than 3 parts. We would have the Angel of the Lord (Word), the Spirit of the Lord (Spirit), Christ, Comfort, and the Brethren of Christ who are also the Sons of God.

They may have different names but there is only three that have been equated with the one true God. Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God the father.

Please define the Trinity?

maybe a visual will help.

reply to post by resonance


How many tribes of Israel were there twelve or fourteen?

I count fourteen.

Reuben
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Issachar
Zebulun
Joseph
Manasseh
Ephraim
Benjamin
Dan
Gad
Asher
Napthali

Why is this?

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by Neo__

 

well first..no one thinks moses wrote the entire OT lol..he wrote the first 5..and it seems that people always says stories from the bible came from other religions...the problem is..these religions dont predate the OT..which cain and able comes from...maybe all these ancient religions drew from the OT..

sure they predate christianity..but the entire NT is prophesied in the OT..

Now you really have me confused. It's generally agreed that Moses lived somewhere between 1300 and 1150 BC and was born in Egypt where at the time the Egyptian religions were well established. And ancient China and India also flourished with culture and religions before 1300 BC. How can you possible say that "these religions dont predate the OT..which cain and able comes from...maybe all these ancient religions drew from the OT.."????? There's a break down in logic here.

reply to post by Neo__


the book of job is older than the books of moses...but, the story of the bible was taught before the bible or the Septuagint was put together..go look in to the hebrew mazzaroth

reply to post by badmedia


the punishment for sin was a physical death..the punishment for not accepting gods gift of salvation is spiritual death..to understand how jesus paid for our sins you have to look at old israelite customs...if a father died and had a debt it carried over to his son and so on and so forth until the debt was paid..no man could pay for our debt because we are born in sin..this is why the virgin birth was necessary and why jesus was able to pay our debt

on question number 2..there is a thing called accountability..the problem is when you willing reject God's gift..children arent held accountable and neither are people who never hear the gospel (people in jungles or something perhaps)...also before jesus everyone went to sheol based on the OT laws

please show me where number 3 is in the bible so i can clarify..most problems like this are people taking things out of context

number 4..i dont understand what you are trying to show..if you take the verse right before that one..its obvious jesus is just trying to explain that he is there to help sinners not help righteous...

reply to post by oliveoil


manasseh and ephraim shouldnt be there..they were josephs kids..not jacobs

[edit on 11-11-2009 by resonance]

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by oliveoil

 

manasseh and ephraim shouldnt be there..they were josephs kids..not jacobs

[edit on 11-11-2009 by resonance]

how come in Numbers 26 Manasseh and Ephraim are listed as being the 12 ?

Also in Rev 7 Dan is omitted but Manasseh is there.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil


Oliveoil, it should be "Dasher" you're responding to not me BUT I incorrectly quoted Dasher's post hence the mix up.

My only part of that post was the last paragraph which stated:

Please define the Trinity?

Your above explanation is a straw man. The "Word" is Christ and not a separate Being. Am I correct to understand that you have included the "Brethren of Christ" as part of the Trinity?

Again I would ask you to then define the doctrine of the Trinity?

Sorry for the confusion