At Least 7 Dead, 12 Wounded in Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

As I said earlier Proto, there are a lot of angry people in the UK (and in the US I'm sure) who are extremely upset about our countries' foreign policies.

Most of them don't go around blowing up trains or shooting their colleagues.

Violence and murder, or incitement to violence and murder, is categorically not an acceptable form of expressing one's political opinions - which, no matter how emotionally affected by them people become, are just that.

And preachers that tell their congregation that UK and US troops are rampaging around Iraq and Afghanistan murdering and raping babies do so for political purposes and as a means of control.

I think we'll both agree that sedition is a very powerful tool.

I agree violence is never the answer Matt Pryor.

I do tend to worry though that violence as a means of expression has long been on the rise in everything from Road Rage to what we have seen here in America in regards to the Health Care Debate recently.

Violence is an extension of politics though and people are not only more prone to become violent when cut out of or disenfranchised from the political process but when their whole culture breeds violence.

One of the problems is how we draw a distinction between acceptable violence (war) and non-acceptable violence (terrorism) when both are equally violent and both are equally wrong when war or terrorism is for purely political purposes.

It's hard to argue that any citizen of Afghanistan or Iraq is truly better off and feels safer for the wars politically visited on them.

The innocent victims of those wars, which far outweigh the actual combatants are just as dead and just as victimizes as those innocent victims of terrorism.

The big difference between the two is we are actively encouraged and in fact compelled by law to fund war and the military industrial complex.

Citizens of the United States and the United Kingdom have no choice but to support this violence whether they agree or disagree with it.

Terrorism though is a purely voluntary effort, and is not compulsory.

Simply put violence begets violence and the, which came first the chicken or the egg argument is one that simply sucks people into that morass of a moral dilemma where as you can see as evidenced on this thread some people are inclined to punish the innocent violently for the actions of the criminal few. That then just gets interwoven into the failed politics that do simply encourage ever escalating violence instead of diminishing and eliminating violence of people who think if they are simply more violent that will end the violence.

Better politics will end the violence and the reality is that many people deliberately look to make people angry in general about a single criminal’s violence or a small band of criminal’s violence and to then politically use that anger to target innocent people that they imagine are some how guilty by some loose geographical or religious or racial affiliation.

We see it happening right before our own eyes Matt Pryor and the reality is few people are speaking out against ALL the violence and ALL the bad politics but instead try to make their own propensity for violence seem just because of someone else’s and their bad politics seem better by trying to make someone else’s seem worse.

Consciences objections against the politics and violence of all sides just tend to get you lumped in with the side in that two party conflict that the person you are objecting to is not on.

Divide and conquer, but at the end of the day Matt Pryor you really have to ask just who is fooling who, as the results of failed ideas and bad politics really do tend to speak for themselves on all sides.

How many people are really listening or paying attention to everything involved? Not many in my humble opinion.

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

And in Islam it is accepted in Sharia Law to use violence and destruction. And since we now know since Ft Hood that Sharia Law comes before US Law or any other country's law you can see how this will turn out.

I was thinking of typing up a long winded reply but i don't think i should bother anymore...its like bangin my head against the wall.

Have you got anything new to contribute except repeating the same thing?




[edit on 12-11-2009 by merkava]

reply to post by JJay55


The crimes being premeditated does not mean the person was not physcially, or mentally ill. So I suggest you refrain from speaking about law if you have no experience in this field. For instance, he has yet to submit a plea, and since he has yet to submit a plea, he can still plead not guilty by reason of insanity. Now I want you to R-E-A-D the bold part several times over before you reply again. What will happen, if he chooses to do this, is he will be evaluated by all types of mental health professionals before the trial and during if the plea is accepted.

You seem to be of the opinion that insanity is a medical term, but sorry to burst your bubble, it is a legal term. R-E-A-D that bold word a couple of times before you respond. I suggest you google "The McNaughton Rule" as it is very brief, to the point, and applies to our criminal justice system.

Before Charles Whitman, a former Marine, killed 14 people by shooting them with a sniper rifle, he planned to kill his mother and wife (premeditated), typed a letter about it before he did it, commited the crimes, then concluded the letters. After he was shot down for mowing down innocent civilians, it was determined that he had a brain tumor which may have contributed to his madness. Chew on that for a bit.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by JJay55

 

The crimes being premeditated does not mean the person was not physcially, or mentally ill. So I suggest you refrain from speaking about law if you have no experience in this field.

Insane or not insane, this animal will fry. I still say we should feed his remains to wild animals.

I dont think we should take up the space for a burial plot.

My hope is that he dies a public and slowly painful death.

reply to post by Night Watchman


My hope is that he receives a fair trial and that justice,whatever that may be, is served. I also want the families to have some type of closure, but that is impossible.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by Night Watchman

 

My hope is that he receives a fair trial and that justice,whatever that may be, is served. I also want the families to have some type of closure, but that is impossible.

A muslim carrying out Sharia Law would not have the same wish for you.

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by Night Watchman

 

My hope is that he receives a fair trial and that justice,whatever that may be, is served. I also want the families to have some type of closure, but that is impossible.

A muslim carrying out Sharia Law would not have the same wish for you.

THIS IS NOTHING BUT PURE OPINIONATED VIAL BIAS. as per usual.
I thought this kind of crap was monitored here on ATS. Guess not.

Originally posted by Night Watchman

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by JJay55

 

The crimes being premeditated does not mean the person was not physcially, or mentally ill. So I suggest you refrain from speaking about law if you have no experience in this field.

Insane or not insane, this animal will fry. I still say we should feed his remains to wild animals.

I dont think we should take up the space for a burial plot.

My hope is that he dies a public and slowly painful death.

Perhaps one day you will be brought to trial and your jury will be your enemies.
Ah!, maybe they will skip the trial.
There is something fundamentally indecent about folk that blabber---
GUILTY until proven INNOCENT, Really indecent,ugly, sick.

reply to post by EMPIRE


Seldom I agree with you.
I do on this post.
It is a shame that folk go blowing their bias all over the place without the foggiest notion of decency.
Their thinking, is do un to Others as fast as you can.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
Perhaps one day you will be brought to trial and your jury will be your enemies.
Ah!, maybe they will skip the trial.
There is something fundamentally indecent about folk that blabber---
GUILTY until proven INNOCENT, Really indecent,ugly, sick.

Let's just name a few. Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, poor guys lost their heads.

Originally posted by Night Watchman

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by JJay55

 

The crimes being premeditated does not mean the person was not physcially, or mentally ill. So I suggest you refrain from speaking about law if you have no experience in this field.

Insane or not insane, this animal will fry. I still say we should feed his remains to wild animals.

I dont think we should take up the space for a burial plot.

My hope is that he dies a public and slowly painful death.

Five soldiers currently sit on the Military's Death Row in Leavenworth Kansas...

The last time the Military executed someone was 1961!

George W. Bush signed an execution order last year for a former Army cook who was convicted of multiple rapes and murders in the 1980s, but a federal judge has stayed that order to allow for a new round of appeals in federal court. There hasn't been a military execution since 1961, though five men sit on the military's death row at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

Military.com

He might very well get the Death Penalty but there is little chance he will actually be executed if he does.

Any one interested in the real world here in regards to this case here are some important things to note:

Authorities would have had more reason to take the case to federal court if they had found evidence Hasan acted with the support or training of a terrorist group, but investigators believe he acted alone, without outside direction.

Military investigators have not; repeat have not found any credible links that tie the alleged shooter to a terrorist group.

The professionals who get paid to investigate these things are not arriving at the conclusions many of the people to this thread seem to be based on no evidence and wishful thinking.

The military system operates under rules that are similar to those in civilian courts. The differences generally give military defendants more rights than their civilian counterparts.

The alleged shooter is going to get a very fair trial.

A defendant and his lawyer can be present at the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing, and the lawyer may present evidence and cross-examine witnesses. Lawyers for witnesses and potential defendants are barred from civilian grand juries.

Prosecutors in the military system also turn over many more documents to the defense before trial. "It's very rare that something in the prosecutor's file isn't in the defense file," said Charles Swift, a former Navy defense lawyer who represented Osama bin Laden's one-time driver. "What's taught to prosecutors in military death cases is be overly generous. You'll win on the facts. You don't need to play games. In fact, how you'll lose is to play games."

The proceedings will center on the provable facts not speculation.

At trial, Hasan's jury would consist of at least 12 officers of higher rank or seniority than Hasan. "This is a very educated jury," said Duke University law professor Scott Silliman, consisting exclusively of college graduates and possibly including Army generals.

He will recieve a mature and fair minded Jury many who will be aware of the unique challenges that people like the alleged shooter face in today's military in their capacity as an Officer.

Galligan, Hasan's lawyer, already has suggested that it could be difficult to receive a fair trial at Fort Hood because of the glare of publicity surrounding the bloody attack, the raw emotions of those who work at the base and President Barack Obama's emotional visit to the base Tuesday.

But the military law experts said several factors could ease those concerns. The base's population turns over frequently. In fact, Hasan himself had been there only a short time. "Some of his jurors might be in Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment," Swift said.

He will be judged by a true jury of his actual Military Peers who unlike many posters to this thread are much more intimately familiar with the mittigating factors that might be given consideration in judging this man if he is found to be guilty of his alleged crimes.

Personally my gut instinct tells me he has been set up with a patsy. More than anything based on the recent discloure a .22 calibre weapon was responsible for all the shootings. That's the weapon of choice for a trained and professional assassin and possibly a team of them, which would account for the conflicting media stories as the event was unfolding of multiple shooters at multiple locations. I could be wrong but justice is only served when the real criminals are the one's caught and convicted and punished - Protoplasmic Traveler


External sources from: Military.com



[edit on 13/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

haha just red that Hasan will never be able to walk again, paralyzed from the hips, some nice shrink material for you for the rest of your life...scumbag

[edit on 13-11-2009 by Foppezao]

As I wind up my tour of duty in Conspiracy Wonderland I have noted the overarching passion from certain quarters of this community at every opportunity attempting to connect and implicate the US government and it's often claimed accessory the Israeli government as the true planners of virtually every crime and malfeasance that has any linkage to the Muslim World.

With nothing in the way of substantiable evidence or testimony it is immediately assumed any shocking or disturbing event is somehow an attempt to further their ends. The armchair judges, juries, and lynch mobs only give lip service to formalities such as due legal process and conclusive proof.

Thes eterrible multiple murders on an an American army base has evoked a very different response. It would be an incredible stre1tch to try an pin this on some vast machination of the Usual Suspects - though I expect that will be forthcoming.

But suddenly there is rush of protective concern for the troubled Major Hasan now considered the 'alleged' perpetrator. The word 'alleged' is rare in this environment. And now suddenly the importance of proof and mitigating circumstances is emphasized as a right for all who are accused of crimes against their fellow man.

Insightful.

I expect the fallout from this recent event will reverberate for a long time.


M

reply to post by mmiichael

As I wind up my tour of duty in Conspiracy Wonderland I have noted the overarching passion from certain quarters of this community at every opportunity attempting to connect and implicate the US government and it's often claimed accessory the Israeli government as the true planners of virtually every crime and malfeasance that has any linkage to the Muslim World.

Well hey mmichael we sure will miss you. I hope your next Internet assignment is more to your liking.

I think it would be a mistake to think that the U.S. Government is in the hands of or run by or for American citizens in this day and age. I think it's safe to say it's in Internationalists hands and has been for quite some time.

I think it would be a mistake to think that the Israeli Government is in the hands of or run by or for Israeli citizens in this day and age. I think it's safe to it's in Internationalists hands as well.

Of course many Americans, Israelis, Zionists and Jews still in Diaspora like to cling to the little shreds of illusion that they are left with that our governments some how do serve we the people.

That the tragic and criminal mishandling of the 9-11 investigations and a lack of credible Constitutional remedies typically carried out by the courts hasn't completely persuaded people to foresake it's principle's in favor of the Media Court of Public Opinion and it's much laxer and incomplete standards would of course likely cause the chagrin of those with an Internationalist Agenda, you know say a Candadian whose main loyalties lie with Israel taking a keen interest in American domestic politics.

Something we see quite a bit here on ATS by the way.

Non-Americans telling Americans how they should foresake Constitutional Standards and Principles.

Whether the alleged shooter is guilty or not the reality is more and more Americans are suspicious of the Government it's Internationalist Corporate Agenda and the Network Medias that function as it's mouth piece with editorialized versions of the 'newz' designed and carefully scripted to lead people to conclusions and play on their fears and emotions.

This is a good thing for people who love freedom and peace.

Perhaps a bad thing for those Internationalists winding up their tours of duty?

So I guess we are going to have an incident every day in the US where a muslim goes "nuts" and tries to kill American non-muslims, eh?
"A Rochester man is facing numerous charges, accused of trying to run down people with his car on Thursday afternoon.
Police say they were flagged down by people in southwest Rochester, at a parking lot in front of 700 S. Plymouth Avenue.Tthey [sic] say the driver of a Nissan Maxima had struck another car as well as several pedestrians."
Yes, he's a muslim and he's not a victim of anything. He wants to kill non-muslims. hmmmmm, a pattern?

reply to post by JJay55


Yes a pattern of JJay not posting any sources for her highly inflamatory and emotionally biased rantings!

By the way critical minds would need a source for this allegation as well as 363 other individual credible sources for 363 other individual occurences carried out 1 a day, in order for your allegations to have any credibility at all what so ever.

Can you even find 8 other individual attacks in the last 8 days since the Ft. Hood Shootings?

Originally posted by JJay55
So I guess we are going to have an incident every day in the US where a muslim goes "nuts" and tries to kill American non-muslims, eh?
"A Rochester man is facing numerous charges, accused of trying to run down people with his car on Thursday afternoon.
Police say they were flagged down by people in southwest Rochester, at a parking lot in front of 700 S. Plymouth Avenue.Tthey [sic] say the driver of a Nissan Maxima had struck another car as well as several pedestrians."
Yes, he's a muslim and he's not a victim of anything. He wants to kill non-muslims. hmmmmm, a pattern?

Seriously, these amateur terrorists are making the professionals (like AQ) look bad. How long before OBL sends out cease and desist orders to these guys for harming the AQ Brand.

I don't have the time for usual verbal jousting and am pretty much exhausted when it comes to countering well-articulated rantings that inevitably turn out to be malicious and quietly hatred driven.

Suffice to say for now America's unquenchable thirst for petroleum and it's attempts to maintain secures access to sources the has produced strange alliances and bedfellows.

In the process a number of Middle East countries have become empowered by their control of these vast mineral assets and have developed their own collective political agendas that are inimical to Western interests.

A complex confrontation of interests has ensued with historical animosities coming to the fore.

A quick peek at new ATS topics this morning highlighted this link which may be indicative of US foreign policies.

www.foxnews.com...

NEW YORK — Federal prosecutors have taken steps to seize four U.S. mosques and a Manhattan skyscraper owned by a nonprofit Muslim organization long suspected of being secretly controlled by the Iranian government.

In what could prove to be one of the biggest counterterrorism seizures in U.S. history, prosecutors filed a civil complaint Thursday in federal court against the Alavi Foundation, seeking the forfeiture of more than $500 million in assets.

The assets include bank accounts; Islamic centers consisting of schools and mosques in New York City, Maryland, California and Houston; more than 100 acres in Virginia; and a 36-story glass office tower in New York.

Confiscating the properties would be a sharp blow against Iran, which has been accused by the U.S. government of bankrolling terrorism and trying to build a nuclear bomb.

FLASHBACK: 5th Avenue Skyscraper Center of Iranian Mystery

A telephone call and e-mail to Iran's U.N. Mission seeking comment were not immediately answered.

John D. Winter, the Alavi Foundation's lawyer, said it intends to litigate the case and prevail. He said the foundation has been cooperating with the government's investigation for the better part of a year.

"Obviously the foundation is disappointed that the government has decided to bring this action," Winter told The Associated Press.

It is extremely rare for U.S. law enforcement authorities to seize a house of worship, a step fraught with questions about the constitutional right to freedom of religion.

The action against the Shiite Muslim mosques is sure to inflame relations between the U.S. government and American Muslims, many of whom are fearful of a backlash after last week's Fort Hood military base shooting rampage, blamed on a Muslim American major.

"Whatever the details of the government's case against the owners of the mosques, as a civil rights organization we are concerned that the seizure of American houses of worship could have a chilling effect on the religious freedom of citizens of all faiths and may send a negative message to Muslims worldwide," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

[...]

Prosecutors said the Alavi Foundation managed the office tower on behalf of the Iranian government and, working with a front company known as Assa Corp., illegally funneled millions in rental income to Iran's state-owned Bank Melli. Bank Melli has been accused by a U.S. Treasury official of providing support for Iran's nuclear program, and it is illegal in the United States to do business with the bank.

The U.S. has long suspected the foundation was an arm of the Iranian government; a 97-page complaint details involvement in foundation business by several top Iranian officials, including the deputy prime minister and ambassadors to the United Nations.

"For two decades, the Alavi Foundation's affairs have been directed by various Iranian officials, including Iranian ambassadors to the United Nations, in violation of a series of American laws," U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said in a statement.

There were no raids Thursday as part of the forfeiture action. The government is simply required to post notices of the civil complaint on the property.

As prosecutors outlined their allegations against Alavi, the Islamic centers and the schools they run carried on with normal activity. The mosques' leaders had no immediate comment.

[...]

The fourth Islamic center marked for seizure is in Carmichael, California.

The skyscraper, known as the Piaget building, was erected in the 1970s on posh Fifth Avenue under the shah of Iran, who was overthrown in 1979. The tenants include law and investment firms and other businesses.

The sleek, modern building, last valued at $570 million to $650 million in 2007, has served as an important source of income for the foundation over the past 36 years. The most recent tax records show the foundation earned $4.5 million from rents in 2007.

Rents collected from the building help fund the centers and other ventures, such as sending educational literature to imprisoned Muslims in the U.S. The foundation has also invested in dozens of mosques around the country and supported Iranian academics at prominent universities.

If federal prosecutors seize the skyscraper, the Alavi Foundation would have almost no way to continue supporting the Islamic centers, which house schools and mosques. That could leave a major void in Shiite communities, and hard feelings toward the FBI, which played a big role in the investigation.

The forfeiture action comes at a tense moment in U.S.-Iranian relations, with the two sides at odds over Iran's nuclear program and its arrest of three American hikers.

But Michael Rubin, an expert on Iran at the American Enterprise Institute, said the timing of the forfeiture action was probably a coincidence, not an effort to influence Iran on those issues.

"Suspicion about the Alavi Foundation transcends three administrations," Rubin said. "It's taken ages dealing with the nuts and bolts of the investigation. It's not the type of investigation which is part of any larger strategy."

Legal scholars said they know of only a few cases in U.S. history in which law enforcement authorities have seized a house of worship. Marc Stern, a religious-liberty expert with the American Jewish Congress, called such cases extremely rare.

The Alavi Foundation is the successor organization to the Pahlavi Foundation, a nonprofit group used by the shah to advance Iran's charitable interests in America. But authorities said its agenda changed after the fall of the shah.

M


[edit on 13-11-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael

I don't have the time for verbal jousting this morning and am pretty much exhausted when it comes to countering well-articulated hate. Suffice to say America's unquenchable thirst for petroleum and it's attempts to maintain secures access to foreign sources the has produced strange alliances and bedfellows.

Sounds like a true duality of man problem to me mmichael.

I don’t know though if I would go so far as to describe adherence to Constitutional principles and standards and refusal to submit to network media indoctrinated political correctness as disseminated by the corporate and internationalist elite as being well articulated hate.

Some would in fact refer to this as common sense and well they should as it is nothing but a not even disguised attempt on your part to simply use debate as a platform to post even more off topic propagandized news articles to attempt to further instill that politically correct internationalist agenda.

My thirst for oil is quite low by the way as I peddle a bicycle as my sole mode of transportation.

Amazingly enough it uses no petrol, requires no insurance, can be parked anywhere for free and peddled over toll bridges free of charge! Naturally this upsets the oil companies, insurance companies, municipalities and Madison Avenue advertising shills who work hard to maintain that very profitable dependence on foreign oil even though we have tremendously abundant untapped and under utilized reserves right here in America.

Sounds like an internationalist agenda to me, and the type of quest for foreign empire our forefathers here in America warned against.

Having said that a person’s own willingness to be manipulated and victimized does not make innocent the manipulators and victimizers, but if you listen carefully to the air you might hear upon the wafting breeze the world’s tiniest violin playing a sorrowful dirge just for you friend Michael.

My heart just bleeds for all those who don’t understand why real Americans who value freedom, free speech and the Constitution won’t submit to what is in essence a whole heap of bull dung!

That so many are willing to exploit this tragedy for political purpose, religious purpose, international purpose just says to me there are ample motives and reasons why those very same people would conspire to create such tragedies and carefully select scapegoats that can fit their prescribed role for the purposes of eliciting emotional responses that do tempt people to abandon America’s most sacred and fundamental principles to instead be manipulated foolishly towards that internationalist agenda.

Critical minds would always reserve judgment until a complete and detailed rendering of all the facts can truly be known and accounted for.

That some people are critical of those wise souls who do reserve judgment in a common sense fashion while promoting their religious, political and internationalist agendas tends to say something far more indicting and condemnable about those critics so quick to rush to judgment while offering feel good solutions for vengeance that always coincidentally just happens to fit those very agendas.

Yes Michael overcoming common sense and logic is a tedious and tiresome affair. Who else would you like to indict for the alleged crimes of one solitary man?



[edit on 13/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]