You dont know anything about us

Distorted Perception goes both ways (left and right) but today I´d like to talk about distorted perceptions toward us people called Republicans, Liberatrians and "Neo-Cons".

Im a supporter of the Libertarian party but within the two-party-system Ive always voted Republican up to now. I voted Bush, the most hated person around. Now, merely based on this, many internet-scribes will presume that I...

...hate Obama.

But I dont hate hate Obama. I actually like him and even agree with some of his policies. Im glad a man of colour is President because it totally debunks the leftist dictum of "black people are oppressed in America".

...am opposed to Universal Healthcare.

Im not. Universal Healthcare is a proven success in Europe.

...am opposed to abortion in all cases

Im not. I think rabid anti-abortionists are ridiculous.

...am a fundamentalist Christian.

Im not. Im sort of neo-Buddhist.

...I think European countries are socialist.

They`re not. Some of them employ social-democrat policies which is something very different than socialism.

...Im opposed to homosexuals.

Im not. I support same-sex-marriage.

...Im racist.

Im not. But I appreciate diversity and believe differences-are-good rather than the marxist dictum of differences being "bad" and having to force everyone to be "the same", dress the same, act the same, etc.

...Im an evil Corporatist.

Im not. I dont like viewing people as "consumers" and a society based on mere consumerism. But I believe capitalism is the backbone of civilized countries and has created more prosperity, philantropy and employment for the world than anything before it.

I dont believe in the marxist dictum of workers being "victims" of Corporations. I believe most of them applied for their jobs of their own free will. I believe that most business people are decent and do not run exploitative sweatshops in China. I believe that most business people give back to the community. I think that all the anti-corporatists around here dont realize that everything they have...streets to walk on, clothes to wear, an internet to type on...are the result of business and capitalism.

...Im pro-war.

Im not. I am non-interventionist and anti-war, except in cases of self-defense.

...Im anti-muslim.

Im not. The majority of muslims are moderate, friendly folk. A small percentage are fanatics out to destroy western values. Im opposed to the leftist attitude of being nice and diplomatic to people who would not hesitate to nuke you if only they could. I think its naive and childish to assume everyone is interested in peace and democracy.

...Im one of the "sheeple" who blindly trust the Government

Im not. I question the Government. But I dont consider much of the stuff I read here and in Blogosphere to be mere Government-Questioning but part of a Hate-America, Hate-Authority movement perpetuated by extremists.

...I dont see through the left-right / two-party false dichotomy.

I do. Ive written extensively about it in these Forums. But that doesnt mean that people who define themselves as either side dont exist. They do and they are affecting our world. Until something more than a limited two-party-system evolves I will choose the lesser evil.

...that Im for the "War-on-Drugs"

Im not. I think its idiotic.

...I endorse one of the current Republican prospects

I dont. I wish Republicans would offer more Moderate Candidates.

Conclusion: Your stereotypes about Republicans/Neo-Cons/Anti-Socialists are false. They are generalizations that apply to a very small segment of the population and not the majority.

Once you open your eyes and look beyond marxist-propaganda and brainwashing you will see that most of us are not bigotted bible-thumpers and war-mongers.

You dont know anything about us

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

Interesting you're more like me than you seem to perceive me as from other threads (thinking I'm advocating communism and such).

I'm not so quick to say "racism against minorities is over" just because the big O was elected. That has not been my experience. It means that a majority don't agree with it in certain respects. It doesn't mean all would would let them in their personal dwellings either. There's plenty of places to encounter bigotry.

My girlfriend got to compare social-democratic nations and communist nations firsthand by living in them. It isn't even comparable. The Scandanavian countries and Soviet Russia were very different experiences.

I'm for humane treatment of life of all kinds, thus against destructive and exploitive practices by corporate entities. If that means keeping business in check in particular ways, then so be it.

Other than that, if you aren't messing with others' freedoms and rights then I have no problems.

Kudos. Very nice rant. Something must have set this off, I take it?

I can relate to what you are describing here -- from the other side. I actually agree with you on almost all of your points, but many think of me as a left-leaning liberal (although not necessarilly on here). I am not actually. I feel there is no need for a federal government and that humans function better in smallish communities led by a rotating system of elders. Beyond that, self-determinism is the key..sink or swim.

But I am not going to derail your thread. You make great points. Do you think humans can acccomplish having a free enterprise system that encourages innovation without necessarilly requiring a government regulatory system to prevent corruption and worker abuse?

I agree, Nice rant! It's not often that I say that. But I mean it.

We actually agree on many issues, yet a bunch of know-it-alls in this Forum will falsely presume that I am an anti-war, anti-gun, heart-on-my-sleeve, socialist liberal ... because? Because I voted for Obama. Because of that ONE piece of information, they assume a whole crapload of other information about me, including the crazy idea that I must automatically agree with Obama on everything and back him 100%! Silly people!

I think that assumption may say more about THEIR politics than it says about mine. If they "back the home team" no matter what, then they'd naturally assume that I back my "home team". And they're wrong. But that doesn't stop them, so I understand your frustration.

I found out a while ago that you are on the more Libertarian side of the scale, but I listened further to your views and found you to be a well-rounded person with views from all over the scale. Much like me.

When I take those ideology tests, I end up in the Left Libertarian area. I'd love to see a viable Libertarian candidate!

Again, great post!

reply to post by Skyfloating

You dont know anything about us

I can identify with everything you said... especially the misperceptions. On the occasion I sully myself in a political forum, I am usually mistaken as either a neocon nazi or a liberal commie because I simply don't play by their rules.

It is the independent political thinker that is the enemy to both of the big, fat cat parties. It is the nonconformist that aligns with neither that creates the biggest problem for the rigid, platform driven partisan academies.

And you're right... they don't understand because the individual that does not allow him/her self to be bound to narrow concepts, is just totally alien to those who do.

Great post!

I'm not so quick to say "racism against minorities is over" just because the big O was elected.

Its not over. Of course not. But neither are blacks so incredibly "oppressed" in America. And I think blacks dont want to be seen as such.

My girlfriend got to compare social-democratic nations and communist nations firsthand by living in them. It isn't even comparable. The Scandanavian countries and Soviet Russia were very different experiences.

One thing that really gets on my nerves on Blogosphere is Scandanavia, The Netherlands, France etc. being called "socialist countries". The truth is that conservative and liberal parties take turns governing these countries, just like in the U.S.

Socialist countries on the other hand would be...hmmm...lets see...Zimbabwe, Venezuela, USSR, Cuba, North Korea...

I'm for humane treatment of life of all kinds, thus against destructive and exploitive practices by corporate entities.

Thats fine as long as it doesnt turn into the belief-system of corporations generally being exploitative and all succesful people being greedy scum...

(I never assumed you are a commie btw)

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by rogerstigers
humans function better in smallish communities led by a rotating system of elders. Beyond that, self-determinism is the key..sink or swim.

Sounds good to me. A step in that direction would be more powers to and emphasis on local government.

Do you think humans can acccomplish having a free enterprise system that encourages innovation without necessarilly requiring a government regulatory system to prevent corruption and worker abuse?

(Imo) it would take a certain level-of-education before that could happen on a broader scale. Ive always worked in environments where overall-success was understood to be the product of serving others to the best of ones ability and honesty. It might take a few more decades before word about that gets around

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I realize that people like you and me (moderate) are out there. But because they are not very vocal about it, large parts of the Blogosphere/Discussion-Boardsphere seem to have been hijacked by those who want to...

Demonize...

and

Sensationalize...

things rather work together in a constructive manner.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
One thing that really gets on my nerves on Blogosphere is Scandanavia, The Netherlands, France etc. being called "socialist countries". The truth is that conservative and liberal parties take turns governing these countries, just like in the U.S.

For one, you can pretty much pass off any propaganda about those nations to people who tend to think nothing but the U.S. exists in any substantial way and everywhere else is to be feared.

Norway is allowing American's in more easily now presumably as political refugees. You could say "inviting". I know someone that moved there because they couldn't make their business work out in the United States at this time. Things seem to be going well for them there...and they're black just for an FYI. Some racial difficulties were also presenting themselves here.

Thats fine as long as it doesnt turn into the belief-system of corporations generally being exploitative and all succesful people being greedy scum...

If they don't behave like greedy scum and the rest can enjoy life as well instead of constantly being on the verge of sinking or sunk, I doubt there will be large issue simply with "success". Noone's pocketbook should be able to silence the voice of the people.

Originally posted by rogerstigers
Something must have set this off, I take it?

yeah...seeing it done over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Someone says "X".

Someone else says: "Oh X! That means you also think Y!"

But it doesnt. X means he thinks X. It does not automatically mean he thinks Y.

Furthermore Im a bit sad at how much Bush and Obama are actively hated and slandered out on Blogosphere. I dont think its good for the country for everyone to feel victimized by the Government.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Do you consider that people like to pick a package just like they would and "Number 2" at Wendy's instead of engaging the world more analyitically? I am hazarding a guess that certain types of thinking tend to cluster more readily. These clusters are what form a political product to bring to market that has enough mass appeal to be substantially funded.

So, to say "You believe X. The likelyhood is increased that you believe Y." may be accurate. The problem is the absolute black and white categorical thinking that makes a kneejerk assessment more accessible to the "thinker". If they hit better than chance, it's simply because that clustering has some reality but isn't guaranteed to always work.

I thought I would take a stab at your observations and see where I stand, if that's ok..

...hate Obama.

Me: Don't hate him, hate is ignorant. He scares the heck out of me.

...am opposed to Universal Healthcare.

Im not. Universal Healthcare is a proven success in Europe.
Me: (This isn't Europe)

...am opposed to abortion in all cases

Im not. I think rabid anti-abortionists are ridiculous.
Me: (Agreed)

...am a fundamentalist Christian.

Me: Yep

...I think European countries are socialist.

They`re not. Some of them employ social-democrat policies which is something very different than socialism.
Me: (Agreed, Socialism, like what Obama is after, is a proven failure)

...Im opposed to homosexuals.

Im not. I support same-sex-marriage.
Me: (Agreed)

...Im racist.

Im not. But I appreciate diversity and believe differences-are-good rather than the marxist dictum of differences being "bad" and having to force everyone to be "the same", dress the same, act the same, etc.
Me: (Agreed)

...Im an evil Corporatist.

Im not. Me: (I am)

I dont believe in the marxist dictum of workers being "victims" of Corporations. I believe most of them applied for their jobs of their own free will. Me: (Agreed)

...Im pro-war.

Im not. Me: (I am)

...Im anti-muslim.

Im not. Me: (Agreed)

...Im one of the "sheeple" who blindly trust the Government

Im not. I question the Government. But I dont consider much of the stuff I read here and in Blogosphere to be mere Government-Questioning but part of a Hate-America, Hate-Authority movement perpetuated by extremists.
Me: (Agreed)

...I dont see through the left-right / two-party false dichotomy.

Me: (I think that people read too much into this. Or too little generally speaking as the average American simply spouts what they have heard is popular. I see that the belief AGAINST the two party system has become more of a religion and people are more concerned with being "Politically Correct" and using the right "Power Words" than they care about or even know about the two party system.)

...that Im for the "War-on-Drugs"

Im not. I think its idiotic.
Me: (Agreed)

...I endorse one of the current Republican prospects

I dont. I wish Republicans would offer more Moderate Candidates.
Me: (I do and I am completely against more moderation. If was Conservative core values that made this country and it is the absence of them that is destroying it.)

That was fun

Semper

reply to post by Skyfloating

Interesting and enlightening statement. Can you clarify how comes you prefer Republican party and Bush to get your vote, while, if looked at from a distance (non-American), it doesn't seem to fit your beliefs & morals?
Just trying to find out why you don't fit the prejudices one would make, according to your above statements.
People still make those assumptions for a reason, not? Possibly it's just ignorance to what the Republican party stands for, but if one makes a simplification of their vision, it doesn't seem to fit your ideas just like to know, thanks.


[edit on 3/11/09 by Movhisattva]

Originally posted by Movhisattva
Interesting and enlightening statement. Can you clarify how comes you prefer Republican party and Bush to get your vote, while, if looked at from a distance (non-American), it doesn't seem to fit your beliefs & morals?
Just trying to find out why you don't fit the prejudices one would make, according to your above statements.
People still make those assumptions for a reason, not? Possibly it's just ignorance to what the Republican party stands for, but if one makes a simplification of their vision, it doesn't seem to fit your ideas

just like to know, thanks.

The preferred self-view of many Republicans: Self-Responsibility, Industriousness, Valor, Uprightness, Decency, Reliability, Firmness, Spiritual Ethics, Strength, Courage, Respect towards Family, Community, Country, Productive, Straightforward, Small Government, Self-Sufficient, Freedom, Privacy.

The projected prejudical view of the Left: Pansy, morally relativistic, weak, cry-baby, lazy, naive, authority-hating, success-hating, PC, not-straightforward, recipe-for-poverty and crime, loss of law and order, etc.

Of course those projected views are distortions/exaggerations. But that will give you an idea of why many liberal-minded people in the U.S. actually give their vote to Republicans.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
For one, you can pretty much pass off any propaganda about those nations to people who tend to think nothing but the U.S. exists in any substantial way and everywhere else is to be feared.

Oh...this one reminds me of the view that we are all xenophobic US-centric idiots who think the rest of the world are savage beasts.

Unfortunately there are people like that, people who have never travelled abroad and dont even care too.

Be assured that most of us are not like that.

Norway is allowing American's in more easily now presumably as political refugees. You could say "inviting".

Ive spent some time in Norway. Its a great place to be. Extremely low poverty rate, crime rate, unemployment rate as a result of decades of centrist politics.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
absolute black and white categorical thinking that makes a kneejerk assessment more accessible to the "thinker". If they hit better than chance, it's simply because that clustering has some reality but isn't guaranteed to always work.

I call it dual-perception vs. spectral-perception. Dual-perception, caused by energylessness has enough of an attention span to see two-sides. Spectral-perception can see a Spectrum of many Dozens of sides and colors on a spectral-scale. Dual-Perception has to therefore categorize everything into this books or that box rather than organizing things spectrally.

Originally posted by semperfortis
I thought I would take a stab at your observations and see where I stand, if that's ok..

Yeah...thats great. Im curious to see.

(Obama) He scares the heck out of me.

Dont be a pansy now.

Me: (This isn't Europe)

True.

Socialism is a proven failure

Dangerously so.

(I do and I am completely against more moderation. If was Conservative core values that made this country and it is the absence of them that is destroying it.)

I understand. I might be wrong in calling for more Moderation.

Originally posted by Movhisattva
Can you clarify how comes you prefer Republican party and Bush

Another thing is that some of us dont necessarily believe in voting what might be best for us personally but what is best for the country as a whole. We consider it egoistic to only consider ones own opinions and comfort.

So while on a private level we might be more liberal than the vote indicates, we just dont think such policies are good for a country-as-a-whole.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

You know, I have to respect the experiment that made the United States. I think the Constitution was well put together and well thought out. It has served as a fine model for a government that has had promise. And to be frank, a lot of mankind's technological and humanitarian progress can be attributed to the way that the United States has operated for it very short life span.

All that being said, while young as a country, it is old as a government. Whenever ANY system of laws and policies is in place too long, arrogant, self-serving people will figure out a way to twist it and pervert it into something that suits their needs. I firmly believe this is what has happened to our government. What the Constitution failed to include is a big fat red flashing reset button. *shrug*

In the software industry as the demands on a product of service change over time, you re-evaluate those demands and make incremental changes. We can obviously do that in the form of amendments. However when enough significant demands are made, a new product version is planned from the ground up and, generally, it is made better with improved security, stability, and features.

I am no longer the naive, bleeding heart child I used to be. I think that mind set is great, because it reminds us to be human, but it is not good for the greater good. What makes us free is the right to say no or yes on our own volition. We AS INDUVIDUALS have the right and responsibility to make the choice between right and wrong as our life has shown them to be. Government should be there only as a means to protect that right of choice.

Government should NOT be involved in determining morals or deciding matters outside the operation of itself. It is there to wage ware and keep peace. It is there to ensure that every single human within it's power and control has the ABILITY to plot their own life. It should not EVER guarantee happiness and success -- or even survival. It should provide only the freedom for each human to achieve it. Anything more or less than that leads to slavery.

Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, etc. I DO believe that these are means to dissect and categorize us into political Happy Meals for easy consumption. They are means to control by making life easy for us. Life should NOT be easy. Life should be hard and challenging. That is how we as humans learn and grow.

Look at our American culture these days. Fat, lazy, tv and video game zombies. We revel in trivial, materialistic rubbish, pretending that we are being "bad" and then run off to church once a week to get a new meal pass for the week. The sense of personal responsibility, not for one's actions -- for one's LIFE, has withered away from a lack of effort.

People will tell their kids "you can be anything you want to be". What they are saying, usually, is you can be anything you want to be so long as it pays the bills. We need to rejuvinate the spirit of "you can be and DO anything you want. You can leave and back pack across the world. You can explore and learn." Money and material are tools, not goals.

Ok, so that's my rant. That's why I consider myself a bit anarchist. I think it is time for a see change and a tearing down of the walls. These political games are useless distractions.

I know it is not easy.. I haven't fully unshackled myself either. I suffer from years of stiffled imagination. I am working on it, though. I think everyone should.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Thank you for your clarifying answers.
Insight in people's beliefs and ideas always brings more understanding, and thus acceptance - we could often use more of that...