Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Libertygal

 

Here is the EU briefing document which contains the real details: PDF Download

The Baxter incident begins on pg 11 of the presentation.

It was not a vaccine, it was a virus used to test a vaccine that had been given to the ferrets.

The virus was not contagious to humans, only ferrets died.

This had nothing to do with vaccine production. This was first round testing where the virus used for testing is mixed by hand and labeled by hand. It's a common mistake.

Mike's interview with one of the top Health officials in the country at that time will confirm this was not a big deal and is not what it's been made out to be, at all.

This is getting hilarious.
You present us with a generalised bullet point slide-show for the EU, who do not want to offend Baxter in any way, and expect us to accept that as proof?

And even that "Official take on the situation for Dummies" does not back up your statements!

It does not say anywhere the live H5N1 virus surreptitiously sent out was not contagious to humans. What it does say is that all exposed personnel were given Tamiflu and hospital examinations, and that none died. Hardly a likely course if they couldn't have caught it anyway.

I can only believe from your statements that you are, in fact, a mouthpiece for Baxter, and your statements are making me more suspicious of the company than ever.

Perhaps Baxter does frequently make the "mistake" of replacing attenuated H3N2 with live H5N1 in the materials they send out, but if that's the case, the government should remove their licences, jail the culprits, and burn down their premises to prevent further contagion.

My information is that the 72 kg of contaminated material was for use as a basis for the next batch of vaccines, and the testing on ferrets was purely the idea of a researcher who was given a private warning.
That would explain why none of the other 3 laboratories this material was sent out to even began testing it on animals.

Originally posted by butcherguy
Can anyone come up with a GOOD reason that the WHO will not release detailed info on the current genetic makeup of the virus obtained from Ukraine?

ummm. Because they don't know. There's not a machine out there that you pop in a virus sample and a couple of quarters and it spits out an analysis.
WHO and CDC are counting agencies. They count diseases, infections and deaths. That's all they do.
Do we have names of the responsible yet?

reply to post by nikiano

Hello Nikiano,

just dropping in for a few minutes to see if there's anything new...

I see there is apparently some dispute over the validity of this pdf document about the "Baxter event" that was prepared by Professor Prymula, Dean of the Faculty of Military Health Sciences and Chair of Epidemiology at Hradec Kralove University (Czech Republic). Or maybe there's no dispute and I'm just reading things wrongly.

Please forgive me if that's the case.

I was the one who found that report, and as I've mentioned a couple of times in the thread it was located on the main url for the Office of the Czech President under the Ministry of Health's localized url within that address. It was not intended for public release. If it had been then by law it would have required a Czech version. But it's in English only. That's quite significant because it indicates a EU-level document, not one for local use only.

As I've already discussed this report a few times I'd rather not go through it all again. In summary, live H5N1 flu virus was mixed with live but attenuated H3N2 flu virus and sent out to four countries' laboratories. The virus material was used to make nasal-spray-type challenge vaccines and when tested on some ferrets in the Biotest company's labs here in the Czech Republic, the animals unexpectedly died. However according to Prof. Prymula it wasn't in a form that was for human use. All the same they instigated health checks and antiviral treatment for workers in that Czech lab. He did say though that there was the potential for a "high-impact" reassortment.

I very much doubt that this "Baxter event" is directly connected to whatever is going on in Ukraine. None of that material was sent to Ukraine. Simplistic of me, I know. But I can't assume much when there's no evidence of a direct connection. Not even in an expert's presentation document that was not for public release, but was most likely for a private meeting with EU health officials.

Anyway if you want the Czech Government page that holds the doc, you can reach it via this link.

Like I said, I've posted this before a couple of times (and also on another thread, actually), and have also informed members that I have the pdf document stored here on ATS just in case the original link goes dead. I recall also posting the link for the ATS copy back some way in this thread.

For me, the "Baxter event" is just a good example of the sorts of things that can go wrong. You know from your own experience that in spite of all the protocols, accidents can still occur. That's why you no doubt had training in the "what to do if" sorts of scenarios. In other words, what the further protocols are when things go wrong in spite of all efforts to the contrary. Further protocols should limit any harm those accidents may cause. So we hope, at least.

The fact that the Biotest co. contacted the appropriate govt ministries here as soon as they knew there had been a major error, is a good example of the "damage control" protocols in operation.

But you'd understand the procedural side better than I do. I'm just mentioning it for members' benefit. Problem was, the lab personnel and those who packed and transported the material believed it was attenuated H3N2 (so-called seasonal flu). So while they took care, it was at the level for a non-lethal product. (Bio level 2 if I recall.) They were not aware it was contaminated with lethal and non-attenuated H5N1 "Bird flu" virus. (Prof Prymula only refers to the H3N2 as attenuated, not the H5N1. He just says it was "live".)

So the paperwork was no doubt all in order. Only problem was the material wasn't.

Sorry I forget to specify for accuracy that they were classified as (A) H3N2 and (A) H5N1. I forgot the (A). But as most would know by now, both those number types are A's anyway. i\It's the (A) type flu viruses that are the truly nasty ones because of their antigenic variation capabilities.

Okay, I'll shut up now and go and rest. Sorry for the poor quality of my writing here. Rambling, I know. Not concentrating so well today. Headaches. Hope I'm not getting the damned flu. Are stomach upsets a symptom? I can't recall.

Regards,

Mike

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by nikiano

 

Where are you getting phase two clinical trial from? This was phase one, animal testing and very early phase one at that. There is no mention anywhere in the document about a phase 2 clinical trial.

If we're being honest here I seriously doubt your proclaimed expertise and based on what you are willing to believe agree completely with your decision to get out of health care if that is really your profession.



[edit on 17-11-2009 by ecoparity]

You're the one who won't say what you do for a living, not me.

As I've said before, am a PharmD (clinical pharmacist), and I have worked as a hospital pharmacist for most of the last 17 years. I have also worked on several drug studies, both in the hospital and out of the hosptial. I became a certified clinical hypnotherapist in 2004. And I have gone to homeoapthy school to further my post-graduate education. I have a passion for learning and a passion for holistic medicine.

How about you?

It's not that unusual to leave the pharmacy field. There are lots of us who get fed up with the pharmacy industry after a while... after our eyes get opened. I can name 3 or 4 friends alone who left pharmacy in the last 10 years. It's a frustrating, stressful job.


In regards to phase 2 question:
There are 4 phases to any trial. If you had my degree, you would know that. We learned it first year in pharmacy school.

Phase 1 is in vitro studies
phase 2 is animal studies
phase 3 is human studies for toxicity
phase 4 is human studies for efficacy.

Therefore, you said that the Baxter incident was done in an early phase of animal testing, because the animals were given live virus to see how effective the vaccine would be. That would be an example of a phase 2 trial. If for some reason they did that in a phase 4 trial, that would make no sense.

But regardless of WHAT phase it was, it was obviously a trial of some sort (i need to read the government document), and there are very, very, very strict protocols in all phases of all clinical studies.

I'm getting angry becuase you are freely stating all your "health care" opinions as a matter of "fact" when you obviously have no experience in the health care field or in clinical trials.



[edit on 17-11-2009 by nikiano]

Originally posted by JJay55
Ok. Can we get to a concensus yet?
Bad guys:
WHO
UN
Baxter

Victims:
Ukraine
Poland
test animals

Good guys:
us
Moshe

Now who at WHO is personally responsible? UN? Baxter?

Why yes JJay, that is an excellent question. If only the other posters on this thread would only pay attention you. Don't know why they ignore you so, you are hot.

reply to post by JJay55


I am all eyes now........Where do I sign up for the red pill.......

Since your so hot.........you get a free pass on presenting documentation and referenses

Originally posted by Kailassa

My information is that the 72 kg of contaminated material was for use as a basis for the next batch of vaccines, and the testing on ferrets was purely the idea of a researcher who was given a private warning.
That would explain why none of the other 3 laboratories this material was sent out to even began testing it on animals.

Yes you are right about this!

The 72kg of contaminated material was meant for vaccine production by sub-contractors to Baxter Europe.

Whatever report that is circulating now even inside of EU is a part of the cleaning up and cover up of this event!

In fact! I think the whole investigation by the EU authorities was totally corrupted from the beginning, with highly suspicious behavior from people and health officials connected with the case.

But I'm not surprised at all about this, in fact most of us here were waiting for just such report after discussions here when it all happened in February and March 2009.


[edit on 17-11-2009 by Chevalerous]

Latest announcement 328 dead.
Also statement issued saying theres no evidence of any mutation from tests done so far.
Strange it was only 2 days ago that London was reporting that tests were ongoing and because they had not been given enough samples-had to grow some more.
Apparently the statement relates to the tests from only 34 samples.

www.kyivpost.com...

Don't know if this has been posted yet or not. It seems a fair summary of what is known and suspected so far, with a reasonable projection of fatalities, a starting place for further discussion...


www.infowars.com...

One thing I've been picking up that may explain what's happening is this:

hisz.rsoe.hu...

The Czech ag authorities reported an outbreak of low pathogenic avian influenza (H5N3) in a holding with mallard ducks for restocking of game in Jihoceský. From 40 cloacal swabs taken in the frame of regular monitoring, one sample appeared positive. Clinical signs were absent. All 280 susceptible birds were destroyed. H5 and H7 avian influenza in its low pathogenic form in poultry is a notifiable disease.

www.rtmagazine.com... (google map of avian flu spread)

There have been reports of a resurgence of deadly avian flu in flocks in Thailand and Vietnam, as well as the single dove found in Moscow. I think it's highly possible that the virus is mixing in the birds and picking up the lethality from there.

I really hope I'm wrong though. I really think I'd rather deal with an engineered virus than a reassortment with avian flu.

Originally posted by JJay55
Ok. Can we get to a concensus yet?
Bad guys:
WHO
UN
Baxter

Victims:
Ukraine
Poland
test animals

Good guys:
us
Moshe

Now who at WHO is personally responsible? UN? Baxter?

Sorry, I didn't respond because I can only argue, and I didn't see anything to disagree with, Except maybe that (or so I have read here) Moshe doesn't even exist!

Originally posted by Cloudsinthesky
reply to post by JJay55

 

I am all eyes now........Where do I sign up for the red pill.......

Since your so hot.........you get a free pass on presenting documentation and referenses

Heh. Ok, now can we come up with a concensus yet? And some names?

Originally posted by butcherguy
Sorry, I didn't respond because I can only argue, and I didn't see anything to disagree with, Except maybe that (or so I have read here) Moshe doesn't even exist!

Moshe is a fake. That's cool. I never bought that route anyway. I do stand by the yellow fever thing. So who knows mobsters and bad guys in Mexico?

Originally posted by apacheman
Don't know if this has been posted yet or not. It seems a fair summary of what is known and suspected so far, with a reasonable projection of fatalities, a starting place for further discussion...


www.infowars.com...

One thing I've been picking up that may explain what's happening is this:

hisz.rsoe.hu...〈=eng

The Czech ag authorities reported an outbreak of low pathogenic avian influenza (H5N3) in a holding with mallard ducks for restocking of game in Jihoceský.

I really hope I'm wrong though. I really think I'd rather deal with an engineered virus than a reassortment with avian flu.

Hope JustMike isn't coming down with that. On another note, talk about a crappy job, swabbing a duck's cloaca.

reply to post by JJay55
If Moshe is a fake, who was the guy in the Volkswagen Beetle in LA? Why did they mobilize such a massive SWAT strike against the guy? Sorry if I'm off topic.

The reports continue to appear to be very contradictory.
Heres one from yesterday which says that a Ukraine Emergency Physician states that this is NOT the N1N1 virus ????



www.examiner.com... flu-or-something-else


Additionally there are some very valid questions that need answers following the WHO statements,posed here;

www.examiner.com... ding-to-WHO-analysis

[edit on 17-11-2009 by martin3030]

reply to post by butcherguy


There is so much mystery concerning Joseph Moshe.........Well if anyone wants to look at the Police logs here you go.........

Just type in his name

app4.lasd.org...

For such a publized case in the media there is nothing in the records except that he is at PATTON STATE HOSPITAL and has had Zero visitors.......There is a number there if someone wants to call........



[edit on 17-11-2009 by Cloudsinthesky]

[edit on 17-11-2009 by Cloudsinthesky]

I thought a consensus was already made that the virus in Ukraine besides swine flu was a combination of "California flu", and two seasonal strains. Does anyone else recall reading an article that stated this? Is this not so?

The California strain was a subtype of the swine flu. It's the one where 11% of those hospitalized never made it out. It would make sense that this strain is 10x more lethal than the regular swine flu.

Eco, or anyone else, does this ring a bell? There seems to be so much conflicting information that it's a bit difficult to keep track of what's real and what's not. Was this article valid? Will try to look for the specific one.

Originally posted by Chevalerous

Originally posted by Kailassa

My information is that the 72 kg of contaminated material was for use as a basis for the next batch of vaccines, and the testing on ferrets was purely the idea of a researcher who was given a private warning.
That would explain why none of the other 3 laboratories this material was sent out to even began testing it on animals.

Yes you are right about this!

The 72kg of contaminated material was meant for vaccine production by sub-contractors to Baxter Europe.

Whatever report that is circulating now even inside of EU is a part of the cleaning up and cover up of this event!
[edit on 17-11-2009 by Chevalerous]

Thanks for that. That's what I was trying to allude to, also. When Eco said that the substance was meant for animal testing all along, and not for human use, that would have meant that it was phase ii, which clearly did not seem to be the case.

So, Eco's excuse did not seem to hold water.

I think cover up / clean up is exactly what they were trying to do.


[edit on 17-11-2009 by nikiano]

I have been following this thread from it's beginning because I believe we are analysing and witnessing the beginning stages of something very dangerous. The first week of this thread I got very frustrated reading some person's opinions (yes, opinions), so I put them on ignore. It has made it quite pleasant to follow the thread after that, although, for all I know, my few comments were ridiculed by the ignored person, but oh well, I can live with not getting into a thread argument, it serves no purpose. I realize that none of us know the truth of any of this big situation, and are all just intelligently speculating. The truth will show itself eventually and we won't even need a realiable source, (we'll all be dying or we won't) but until then, to me, all ideas and theories are open to being possible until a full realization of all these different scenarios are fulfilled or not fulfilled. Thanks to all that keep adding info here.

Originally posted by martin3030
The reports continue to appear to be very contradictory.
Heres one from yesterday which says that a Ukraine Emergency Physician states that this is NOT the N1N1 virus ????



www.examiner.com... flu-or-something-else


Additionally there are some very valid questions that need answers following the WHO statements,posed here;

www.examiner.com... ding-to-WHO-analysis

[edit on 17-11-2009 by martin3030]

There is no such thing as an N1N1 virus.

The report mentioning that was most likely a typo.
- Some hand-written Hs can look like Ns.

The Ukraine disease is H1N1 with some small modifications.
Small however does not necessarily mean minor or unimportant.