Non-Believers...

Not to the degree that you are creating a straw man argument against God

I'm not arguing against god I'm arguing against the whole “this is hell, if you don't believe then this is where your going, but I'll feel a bit sad about it” thing you've got going on.

Despite the beating around the bush it is still judgemental. But what really gets me is that you can't just come out and say it; “you are going to hell and I think that's right”.

If god says I'm going to hell, you think everything god does is just and deserve then by implication you think I should burn and suffer for all eternity.

Of course you would do both, we ALL would do both. But that's not what I asked you, I asked you if you would be "fear mongering" by doing both.

No (although it would of course be an attempt to use fear to change behaviour) but that isn't what I'm saying. I am not debating what the outcome will be I'm debating whether you think the outcome is right.

I've said numerous time that I completely agree with the judgments of God, you just don't like that answer, not my problem.

I'm fine with that answer, what I'm not fine with is the fact that you won't take that last step and say what you really mean, which is “I think you should go to hell if you don't believe.”

I have NO IDEA what you'll do in the future, therefore I cannot tell you you'll go to Hell.

So what about if I died right now? You've said that I would go to hell, tell me that you think that is just; tell me that you think I deserve to suffer for all eternity for that fact alone. Don't give me this nonsense about Jesus telling you not to judge people because you've already done that; gods says I'm going to hell and you say everything god says is just, that's a judgement.

It's cowardice, you can wave your hand across a faceless crowd and condemn them all but you can't do it when you're actually talking about an individual.

Let's depersonalise it then, do you think it is right that people who don't believe in god should suffer?

reply to post by Mike_A
That's a ludicrous notion Mike. Agreeing with a judgment as just is NOT the same things as making the judgment oneself.

When you read in the paper or watched on TV that Jeffrey Dahmer was sentenced to death most likely you agreed with the sentence. That doesn't mean you were the judge himself who imposed the sentence.

Same thing here, I trust God, and whatever God judges I agree with also. I'm also never going to tell you where you'll spend eternity, that's God's call and His alone.

Whatever He decides I'm okay with, He is sovereign.

I've answered your question a number of times, I'm sorry you don't like my answer, but it's my answer.

I'm never going to tell you where you will spend eternity, so quit asking me, I pass judgment on no man.

I 100% agree with God in everything He decides, without question.

reply to post by Mike_A

It's cowardice, you can wave your hand across a faceless crowd and condemn them all but you can't do it when you're actually talking about an individual.

It's not that I cannot, it's that i would be deliberately sinning and going against the Word of Jesus Christ, so I refuse to. You might as well drop it. It has nothing to do with being a "coward", I'm obeying my Lord. And I will CONTINUE to do so.

Is there anything else you'd like to discuss?

Originally posted by Mike_A

Interesting discussion but I understand where you are coming from. Coming from a family of blow-hard christians I can appreciate the apparant dichotomy between a supreme being who preaches forgiveness, to a raging idiot who'll send you to burn for All Eternity.

Be glad you have your own opinions, rather than the seemingly hand-me-down beliefs of the OP

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Actually, Jesus says it is that which will come after which is much greater than him that does the fire and the holy spirit.

Jesus doesn't say that, John the Baptist does.

Yes, my bad it was John. But again, the reason we are talking about those verses is that you use those verses as proof of hell from the bible, when in reality those verses are talking about baptism, not hell.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Really, so do you put your wife/women in the barn when it's that time of the month? Do you kill your child if he misbehaves?

Why is your name "NoTurTypical" when you are basically the model of a typical Christian?

[edit on 10/26/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I 100% agree with God in everything He decides, without question.

No you don't, you simply mold whatever biases and beliefs you have as being of god and then say you agree with that.

I have a question for you - do you actually know the father? Not talking about books or the bible, do you actually know the father?

Because I know the father, and he gives in terms of understanding, rather than what to accept and agree with.

For example, rather than the father telling me to accept 1+1=2 and to repeat that, he gives me understanding of math. Rather than the father telling me the commandments directly and telling me to accept and follow them, he gave me understanding on why they are there. No dogma, but understanding.

And this is talked about in the OT in Proverbs 8. That those who find the father early will be rewarded with wisdom and understanding(knowledge).

But all you know is the bible - why? I know the answer - but do you?

Originally posted by Internet Explorer

Originally posted by Mike_A

Interesting discussion but I understand where you are coming from. Coming from a family of blow-hard christians I can appreciate the apparant dichotomy between a supreme being who preaches forgiveness, to a raging idiot who'll send you to burn for All Eternity.

Be glad you have your own opinions, rather than the seemingly hand-me-down beliefs of the OP

In the end, I found that religion is not god, or in most cases not even of god. The entire church structure for example is against the bible.

All these people are doing is using "God" as a way of promoting their own bias and hatred. It's not "them" that's doing it, it's "God" - so it's ok.

Personally, I think having to deal with such things is my own form of hell, and I long for a day when understanding and reason rule over acceptance and dogma.

All talk of "Hell" is really just a metaphor. In the times of the bible, the places they talk about are actual places on earth. Gehenna is a landfill from those times, where they would throw away their trash. It was a foul place for sure, and from time to time they would burn their trash. Yes, bodies too. So, to get thrown in there is to get thrown into the trash, into the fire.

Just like with the wheat and the chaff allegory. Keep the wheat, you throw away the chaff. The chaff was there for a reason and purpose and without the seed could not have grown into the wheat. But once the wheat is there to harvest, you throw the chaff away.

So the so called references to hell is really talking about someone will be "thrown away". Which is quite a bit different from burning for eternity in hell.

While eternal hell is a falsehood, the death of the soul is not. But that is the worse the father would ever do to someone, and such is honestly of mercy. Any forms of hell we experience before then are of our own making/consequences.

To really understand what is being talked about, one must understand that which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. For someone to think there is an eternal hell must mean they have no concept of what the spirit is, because it is to say that the father is going to punish himself for eternity.

Proverbs 9: 6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Originally posted by Internet Explorer

Originally posted by Mike_A

Interesting discussion but I understand where you are coming from. Coming from a family of blow-hard christians I can appreciate the apparant dichotomy between a supreme being who preaches forgiveness, to a raging idiot who'll send you to burn for All Eternity.

Be glad you have your own opinions, rather than the seemingly hand-me-down beliefs of the OP

It's only "apparent" to people who use fallacies of logic in their inductive reasoning skills.

The God revealed in scripture has many more attributes than perfect Love, to focus on that attribute alone and not take into account His perfect justice and wrath against any and all sin is called a "Hasty Generalization", and a "Straw Man Argument".

When deciding if God's judgments are moral or not by the emotion it leaves with us is called an "Appeal to Pity" argument.

I'd be careful one isn't using logical fallacies as part of one's inductive reasoning process to determine if either God is just/moral in His punishment for the ungodly, or if god perhaps has more attributes than just "hippie" love for all people no matter how rebellious they are to Him.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Actually, Jesus says it is that which will come after which is much greater than him that does the fire and the holy spirit.

Jesus doesn't say that, John the Baptist does.

Yes, my bad it was John. But again, the reason we are talking about those verses is that you use those verses as proof of hell from the bible, when in reality those verses are talking about baptism, not hell.

Okay, for the sake of the argument we'll let your objection be sustained on that particular verse. I still don't agree, but we'll move past it.

What about all the others where Jesus is talking about Hell specifically??

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Really, so do you put your wife/women in the barn when it's that time of the month? Do you kill your child if he misbehaves?

Why is your name "NoTurTypical" when you are basically the model of a typical Christian?

Wow, the first few chapters of Romans discusses that the Mosaic Law died with Christ, and that it was intended only to condemn man, not justify man, to show man that he was powerless to achieve atonement by his own works of the Law.

And that man had always been justified by faith from Adam through Abraham, through Moses, through David, and finishing with Christ who followed the Law to the last letter. And to let those who still wanted to follow the law for justification to continue being condemned by the law.

It says to fail just one of the Laws is to fail all of the Law.

Oh I'm not a typical Christian I can assure you, typical Christians practice "Churchianity".

reply to post by badmedia


Wow, the Father is only revealed through the books of the Bible to mankind. Long lost are the days when He speaks to man from a mountiantop or burning bush in the wilderness.

Jesus says to know Him is to know the Father. He also says those who don't know Him have a father too... He's not in heaven though.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Wow, the first few chapters of Romans discusses that the Mosaic Law died with Christ, and that it was intended only to condemn man, not justify man, to show man that he was powerless to achieve atonement by his own works of the Law.

And that man had always been justified by faith from Adam through Abraham, through Moses, through David, and finishing with Christ who followed the Law to the last letter. And to let those who still wanted to follow the law for justification to continue being condemned by the law.

It says to fail just one of the Laws is to fail all of the Law.

Oh I'm not a typical Christian I can assure you, typical Christians practice "Churchianity".

Would you like me to point out where Romans contridicts Jesus? Romans is the writing of Paul and Paul is a false prophet.

Here is where what you say contradicts what Jesus says.

Matthew 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Of course, you would say that except you believe in Jesus, which also contradicts Jesus. You are saying Jesus did it, so you don't have to. Of course, if that is the case then why does Jesus say otherwise so many times, and when the rich man approaches Jesus, why doesn't Jesus tell him what you would say?

Under Christianity(Paulism) the rich man need only accept his free gift. But Jesus tells people to keep the commandments and walk the path.

Jesus doesn't change the laws, nor does he get rid of them. He instead brings understanding on how to follow them properly - which he does by example. The reason why you don't need to keep your wife in the barn and such is because those were laws of men, not commandments of the father. The 10 commandments are still 100% valid, and unless you follow them - belief in "Jesus" or not, you shall not enter the kingdom.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by badmedia

 

Wow, the Father is only revealed through the books of the Bible to mankind. Long lost are the days when He speaks to man from a mountiantop or burning bush in the wilderness.

Jesus says to know Him is to know the Father. He also says those who don't know Him have a father too... He's not in heaven though.

That is what you are told, and that is what you believe. But it's not really the truth. I know the father, I learned all that I know from the father and what you would call the holy spirit.

Men don't even look for god anymore, instead they look to books of those who heard.

Just as the pharisees sat in the seat of moses in the times of Jesus, the scriptures today sit in the seat of the father.

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

See that, scribes are those who write scripture. The scripture is not the authority you are making it out to be. Not that scripture is bad and not useful or has a purpose, but that you are not putting things in their proper authority.

But while Jesus tells me that, you tell me it's the opposite, the scribes are the authority and I am not. That scripture is the authority and word of god and so forth.

The door to the father has been closed, you enter not and you do not allow others to enter. But I do not listen.

Hosea 6

6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

7But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

The father is there for those who truly seek him, and you can find him early. But you never will. You will need to be born of the spirit for that.

John 14: 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

And on that day, then you will know the father and not make such claims because you accepted a religion and book.

[edit on 10/26/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Okay, for the sake of the argument we'll let your objection be sustained on that particular verse. I still don't agree, but we'll move past it.

What about all the others where Jesus is talking about Hell specifically??

I don't care if you allow it to go or not, that entire section of the book is talking about baptisms, not hell.

Which others do you want me to address? When Jesus references Hell, he is not talking about a literal hell. It's talking about making good judgements, and a time when people will make good judgments and know the truth. When that happens, all evil and those who have made their "wealth" on evil will become powerless and be thrown away from society.

As such, the wheat becomes seperated from the chaff. The chaff was there to help that seed grow, it was there for a stage, but the end result is all that is taken/harvested, and that will be a people who are righteous and so forth.

What is going to happen is there will one day be a big awakening, a revelation of the people in terms of what is evil and what is good. The majority of people will accept the understanding and follow it. Evil gets it's power in the world through lies and manipulation. Once people are able to see through it, then it becomes powerless. And "in a word" the world will be changed forever.

Why you are spreading fear about such things is beyond me. At worse, the only ones that would even need to worry are the wicked. And that would be those who know the truth, but purposely work to hide and keep it from people for power and so forth. That wouldn't include the majority of people in this world. I'd venture to guess that 99% of the world is just fine. They aren't right today, they do evil today, but bless them father for they know not what they do. Those who do know what they do are the only ones who would ever have anything to worry about.

And btw, on your belief that the father doesn't speak to people anymore:

John 14
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

But the father gives in terms of understanding, not literal words as men do. Or do you think a personal relationship with the father means the father and holy ghost will simply quote bible scripture to you?

reply to post by badmedia
I firmly believe that's the way He 'speaks" to us now, of course, that's exactly what Jesus said.

that's why when I said the Father doesn't "speak' to us like he did with the burning bush or to Moses, those times it was an AUDIBLE speaking, there were no scriptures at that time.

And we know the authors of the Books of the Bible, none of them were the "scribes" spoken of in the NT, the "scribes" were the Rabbis or elders of the church.

Name one author of any book of the Bible that was a scribe. Jesus hated the HYPOCRISY of the scribes and Pharisees, who were pretending to be Godly but weren't. Who were the "blind leading the blind".

reply to post by badmedia


Okay.. I'm "wrong" about "Hell" and "fire", then tell Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that their Greek lexicon is "wrong" as well.

Where did you learn Koine Greek??

reply to post by NOTurTypical


And yet, you follow the Pharisees and scribes of today. Why?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by badmedia

 

Okay.. I'm "wrong" about "Hell" and "fire", then tell Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that their Greek lexicon is "wrong" as well.

Where did you learn Koine Greek??

I get my understanding from the father, and the father is the only source I trust for it.

The specific word isn't what matters, it's the meaning behind them that matters.