Duct Tape: Proof of Moon Hoax? Maybe!!!

Something has been bothering me for the past week since I saw the Mythbusters show on Duct Tape. A video and claims that is was used on the moon Rover is all over the internet along with NASA's own website. I believe ATS own CEO started a website with this very claim regarding Duct Tape...

What concerns me is that I have found sources that says duct tape just doesn't work in the vacuum of space. And, along with that... duct tapes melting point is at a lot lower temperature than it is on the surface of the moon during day light...

See below for a few sources that I have found.
Duct Tape Doesn't Work In Vacuum

HOUSTON, June 12 (Reuters) - High-tech NASA may repair a torn heat-resistant blanket on the space shuttle Atlantis in a low-tech way -- by sending an astronaut out to stitch it together, the U.S. space agency said on Tuesday. The space-suited seamster would use stainless steel wire and a hooked needle to sew the protruding blanket into place, said deputy shuttle program manager John Shannon. He said the universal fix-it tool -- duct tape -- was discussed, but quickly discarded. "Duct tape doesn't work in the vacuum of space," he told reporters at Johnson Space Center.

Different Noted Times Duct Tape was Used In Space

Duct Tape being used on the surface on the moon...

Duct Tape Patent

Duct Tape Breaking Point

Most of the joints tested were found to be leaking by 50% or more, according to the researchers. Their test results also showed that a large proportion of the tapes failed to function when temperatures dropped below freezing (32°F [0°C]) or rose over 200°F (93°C).

Duct Tape - Wikipedia

Now I believe that the surface temperature on the moon during the sunlight hours is:
383 Kelvin which equals 230 degrees F... and -180 degrees F in the shade. This is well above and below the temperatures of the usual breaking points of duct tape.

Could it be this simple to prove this conspiracy??? Not sure... What do you think?





[edit on 10/23/2009 by x2Strongx]

Personally, I thought putting this up would be a nice change from the political posts here lately...

I'm really hoping someone can debunk this so I can keep my mind from wondering if this is possible or not...

Well, I don't believe the moon landing was a hoax, but I love your thread!!

It is always the simple things that trip people up!! Could the most universal fix-it tool in the US be the unravelling of the moon conspiracy??

That would be ironic!! If there is a conspiracy, then you may be on to something here. I can't wait to see more responses!

Starred and Flagged!

The moon isn't space, it's the moon. Granted you couldn't breathe there but it's not a vacuum.

reply to post by x2Strongx


The moon in the daylight actually ranges from 107C to 123C, or 225F to 250F.

With a max temp duct tape it can stand temperatures up to 200F, Whereas normal duct tape begins to melt at 130F. However, the 200F seems to be only a suggestion, the temp of the moon is only 30 to 50 degrees more than the melting point. Probably just got really sticky, its not like the tape would have melted instantly.
www.conversion-metric.org...

In process of writing this here, I called 3M, they informed me that your 200F estimate is what they have tested the tape up to, but that it would operate at that temperature with only minimal loss of adhesion or tensil strength. They do have tapes that go up to 250, but those were not invented in the 1960's. I would stick with the assumption that 25-50 degrees above normal tested strength would make it lose some of its adhesion and strength, but that it would still probably hold for what they used it for.

You have to remember, it only needs to be 1/6 as strong vs strength on earth, thus it could probably take even higher temperatures in lower gravity.

Freezing, umm, well they were only interested in the day time work so if the tape froze when the sun was gone, no big deal since they were gone by then. The sun was the only light source and thus it was hot the entire time they were there.

reply to post by x2Strongx

What concerns me is that I have found sources that says duct tape just doesn't work in the vacuum of space.

Well, I'd say that the spokesman who said that was just not explaining fully what he meant. In the example source you cited, they were talking about a permanent repair of a thermal blanket. So, duct tape isn't well suited. ALSO, the ability of any tape adhesive to work properly depends on the porosity of the surfaces you are attaching it to. Smooth surfaces will 'grip' the tape's adhesive much better than porous...and with a flexible object, as well that is porous...well, it would work, but only temporarily.

Adhesive is adhesive....until we consider the second part of your thought:

And, along with that... duct tapes melting point is at a lot lower temperature than it is on the surface of the moon during day light...

Remember that in a vacuum there is no way for heat (or cold) to conduct, unless through some sort of medium.

Direct, un-shaded sunlight would, via infrared, cause heat of the exterior surface to rise, then the heat would flow through the material. Obviously, for the A17 YTube video, when they fixed the fender, the repair was temporary...just to help keep the regolith from flying about as much as possible. (Their alternative, I suppose, would have been to just drive much slower, but that would have affeccted the EVA mission objectives).

Now, as to the temperature extremes on the Lunar surface that you noted, you have to remember that, just like on Earth, those would be examples of the "high noon" middle of the Lunar 'day' and "midnight" of the Lunar 'night'...that is a 14-day range of Earth time.

The Apollo missions were scheduled to land at various times of the Lunar 'morning'...obviously, they needed sunlight -- and that's the best time, because the surface has just begun to warm back up after the long "night" (but it's not fully heated yet) and they have nice long shadows to help with visual perspective, for the landing and such...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by x2Strongx

 

Remember that in a vacuum there is no way for heat (or cold) to conduct, unless through some sort of medium.

Direct, un-shaded sunlight would, via infrared, cause heat of the exterior surface to rise, then the heat would flow through the material. Obviously, for the A17 YTube video, when they fixed the fender, the repair was temporary...just to help keep the regolith from flying about as much as possible. (Their alternative, I suppose, would have been to just drive much slower, but that would have affeccted the EVA mission objectives).

Actually you have 2 incorrect statements, but you are mostly correct. First, the moon is not a perfect vacuum. There is an atmosphere, although it is very weak and floats away pretty fast. Second, heat doesn't transfer the way you are thinking it does, for example you cannot start a stove up there and expect to feel the heat generated by putting your hand above it, however radiation can also be thought of as heat and that is why the surface gets so hot.

The moon has no atmosphere to protect you against the radiation from the sun, thus you are bombarded with sunlight, which contains energy, which is going to make you hot.

reply to post by memarf1


OK...picky...

First, the moon is not a perfect vacuum.

I never said "perfect" vacuum. Technically, no such thing exists...not even in deep interstellar space. For al intents and purposes, there is insufficient 'atmospheric' medium to do much conducting of thermal energy.


Now, you've made the minor mistake:

Second, heat doesn't transfer the way you are thinking it does, for example you cannot start a stove up there and expect to feel the heat generated by putting your hand above it...

You just made a common misconception there. Heat DOES transfer through a medium...you stove analogy is flawed, because you said "put your hand up there"...that is the result of the AIR being heated, and rising. Of course, if you've never been warmed in front of a fire, then maybe you've forgotten that the air surrounding the heat source will still carry the thermal energy.

See, we're discussing TWO things...and terms sometimes used make it sound confusing. I'm talking about the phrase "radiative heat"...

Now, here you are almost spot on:

... however radiation can also be thought of as heat and that is why the surface gets so hot.

Actually, it is the INFRARED radiation, as I noted above. Part of the EM spectrum...in essence, it's light that our eyes didn't evolve to perceive visually.

The higher energy "cosmic" radiations and such don't really generate heat.

...sunlight, which contains energy, which is going to make you hot.

Yes...the energy in the sunlight! That is the infrared....

Back to heat transfer.....take a steel rod. Make it two meters long. Hold one end, and bring a blow-torch to the other end (unless you have long arms, this takes at least two people!!)

Obviously, the part in the flame gets hotter, faster...and the opposite end will be comfortable in your hand for quite some time. IF you remove the flame before the end you're holding gets too hot, it will likely still be OK, because the AIR will be acting as what's called a "heat sink" to equalize the hotter portion....it's all in the Laws of Thermodynamics. Not fun reading, but important just the same.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Actually I still didn't make any mistake, my point was that you needed a medium and in space you wouldn't have one. I was just keeping it simple. The air would be required for the heat to transfer, and yes a blowtorch on a metal rod would heat the other end, since it has a medium of transfer.

My point was that radiation doesn't need this kind of medium, it is essentially it's own medium. You are forgetting about the UV by the way, it isn't only the infrared that heats you up, the UV is very much important as well, but actually all wavelengths will transmit some sort of radiation energy or heat to you, assuming you absorb it. That is really the key, if you can reflect all the light then you will get none of its adverse effects, thus that is why the earths atmosphere is important, it reflects a good portion of it.

reply to post by memarf1


225 and 250 degrees is still above the breaking point of the tape. They only tested the tape up to 200 Degrees yes, but they said that they had 50% leakage at this point!!!

Holding up a bumper in 1/6 the gravity of Earth... maybe... but remember the reason why they taped on the fender was because of the rooster-tails from the dust. I doubt that it could take that much punishment.

In addition... Talking about surface heat vs... etc.

If the tape doesn't reflect the light, rays etc... wouldn't it heat up as well?

reply to post by x2Strongx


I think you are correct. The 1/6 would be if it was just holding something up, but the wear and tear from actual use would be similar to Earth, probably even worse without the "damping" effect of an atmosphere!

Also, it isn't just heat that is a concern, nor all the visible, infrared, and uv light is the concern, there is also microwave radiation and a myriad of other radiation sources. Have you ever seen Duct Tape that sat in the Summer Sun on earth? There isn't much left of it, so I can only imagine the sublimation effect of the sun's radiation on duct tape in space. Most plastics (PVC and/or PCV) are photo-sensitive, and Duct Tape has a high amount of these materials, as well as organic materials used for reinforcement. The organic materials would also be very volatile in the intense radiation of the sun.

So, IMHO, this fix would have been extremely temporary. I also wonder how they could possibly use duct tape with those big space gloves? I have a hard time doing it with my bare hands?

I also wonder why they would have brought duct tape along in the first place, if they knew of its limitations? A space exploration capsule is not the best place to look for spare parts, or things to "rig" something with!!

I was thinking, if the tape they used was used for sealing, once it gets above that temperature, it will likely begin to melt, but it will soften and get gloppy first, actually probably making an even better seal. Tho I ponder, could the materials it was taping also act as a bit of a heat siink as well.

but, it s atemp repair. if its meant to last for an hour, i may just do the trick.

Here's a picture...

2nd line...

Something has always confused me about the moon rover

if weight and space are prime concerns aboard a lunar lander ,

how could you take a car....? ...and golf clubs....?

I always just love when I read a post where the poster "knows a guy" in some field.

Today I get to be that guy lol.

I know a guy, I believe he is a chemical engineer, or some type of engineer. He works with adhesives and has worked for 3M, DOW and some others.

I could forward the subject matter to him, see what his take on the adhesive properties of duct tape in space is.

reply to post by x2Strongx

What concerns me is that I have found sources that says duct tape just doesn't work in the vacuum of space. And, along with that... duct tapes melting point is at a lot lower temperature than it is on the surface of the moon during day light...

Duct tape is what holds the universe together.

Well... it is what holds my '65 Ford F-100 togther sometimes and that's dang sure good enuff for me!

reply to post by x2Strongx


After viewing your picture I noticed the tires on the rover. They look like regular tires, which I assume are filled with air? Would they hold up in the same environment? I am no way near as informed with the sciences like the other posters here, wow is all I can say.
Let me know what you think.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I was just rereading my post and realized that duct tape is silver and fairly reflective. Radiation is the heat we are discussing, so while duct tape may melt on an oven or on a hot summer day, maybe it reflects most of the light that hits it thus it doesn't melt. In order for light to be destructive to anything, even intense laser light, the material must be able to absorb that light. If the duct tape only absorbs a few wavelengths then the tape would not get hot and would not melt.

To answer your question about why they had duct tape, well you always have a knife with you, didn't your previous employers used to call you McGuyver? If I were an astronaut I would want to be prepared for anything, thus duct tape. Plus, I bet they were all Eagle Scouts, and you know their motto! haha.

Duct tape helped on Apollo 13 also.

Duct Tape

NASA engineers and astronauts have used duct tape in the course of their work, including in some emergency situations. One such usage occurred in 1970, when the square carbon dioxide filters from Apollo 13's failed command module had to be modified to fit round receptacles in the lunar module, which was being used as a lifeboat after an explosion en route to the moon. A workaround was made using duct tape and other items on board Apollo 13, with the ground crew relaying directions to the spacecraft and its crew. The lunar module CO2 scrubbers started working again, saving the lives of the three astronauts on board.

Keith Canfield, who designed the scrubber modification in just two days, said later that he knew the problem was solvable when it was confirmed that duct tape was on the spacecraft: "I felt like we were home free", he said in 2005. "One thing a Southern boy will never say is, 'I don't think duct tape will fix it.'"[6]

Originally posted by ufoptics
After viewing your picture I noticed the tires on the rover. They look like regular tires, which I assume are filled with air?

The rover tires are actually wire mesh reinforced with internal ribbing. No air.