In Christianity, Why is Satan Evil, and God Good? What is Evil?

reply to post by Neo-Dark


I already gave answers and links to most of the concerns you listed.
Perhaps you should look online for yourself.
I will give you the same link as I posted earlier.
about murder and killing
and this one:
www.mt.net...
Also...you might get something from this:
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 21/10/09 by John Matrix]

It seems to me that Jesus made it pretty clear in regards to exactly who yahweh was ...

He told the sadducees and the pharisees " you have NEVER known my father" ...

He did not say you know him when it suits you or ignore him when it doesn't , the way so many 'christians' and 'jews" live today.

He was telling them that the very god they knew on a personal basis, the god of Abraham and of Moses, was an imposter....

For this they wanted his life ... THAT simple!!

Most of the teachings of Christ point to the Universe itself being the FATHER ...
A living, breathing, THINKING, entity ...
The CREATOR ...

" in my Fathers house , there are many mansion "

In the Universe, there are many life yielding planets ...

The bible also points out that men would worship a creation over the creator ...
Yahweh being a creation ...
A blood thirsty one at that.
It even points out that Lucifer proclaimed, " I will ascend to the most high", or there abouts.
Again this alludes to the idea that men are worshipping an imposter or CREATION as CREATOR.

John( not jesus I know) even states that in the beginning was the "WORD" ...
Word, being verbal thought or a vessel that launches thought into the World.
In the very beginning was? THOUGHT!!

IF you need to worship something, anything, worship the Universe, whose particles were used to build you. Without them, you would not have been built at all...

YES, Satan IS a thief and a liar ...




[edit on 21-10-2009 by ShawNee922]

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by Nichiren

 

Ahhh....there wasn't any innocent babies.
Possibly the babies were being aborted, sacrificed to gods, or even eaten by the evil inhabitants of earth?

If you knew God, then you would know there had to be a reason.

Then again, you don't know if any babies had been born during that 100 year period.....right? For all we know, everyone might well have been over 100 years old.

Ahh, people didn't have sex for 100 years so no babies LOL.

I'm afraid you are a fundamentalist believer. That's ok, but makes an honest discussion impossible. Bye.

reply to post by ShawNee922


Looks like you have everything all figured out friend.

What Seminary did you attend?

Do you have some Bible scholars who support your position and can you point us to your sources?

Amazing stuff!

[edit on 22/10/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by CHA0SGod is good, Satan is Evil, but why is that?

God (of the bible) gave angels free will.

Satan was once an angel who looked upon the face of God, yet chose to disobey.

If God created free will which led to disobedience who is to blame?

Consider God has already seen this because he is the future past and present:

Omnipresence is the property of being present everywhere. Omniscience is the capacity to know everything infinitely.

God is omnipotent which is those factors above combined.

Is this all just a game? Or maybe there is no God?

---

As for the acts committed by the God of the old testament/

Those are brushed away with the "God gives life and can taketh away" clause.

Originally posted by Nichiren

Ahh, people didn't have sex for 100 years so no babies LOL.

I never said that. I only put forth the suggestion to make the point that no one knows what was really going on back then.
For all we know...it's possible that disease and corrupt DNA could have prevented pregnancies...who knows?
But I doubt that they stopped having sex....that's you two cents....not mine.

I'm afraid you are a fundamentalist believer. That's ok, but makes an honest discussion impossible. Bye.

I am far from a fundamentalist. I have some beliefs that are shared by fundamentalists.....as you probably do too....but that does not make me or you a fundamentalist.

Well....don't be too hard on yourself. I'm sure you can try hard to be honest if you put your mind to it. As for me.....they call me Honest John.

[edit on 22/10/09 by John Matrix]

Grüße Fräulein, Sturm-Verbot-Führer, So I have to think too much about my grandmother, with all due respect, because they can be sent to eternal damnation, that still hurts people. In this way you do not ever hurt anyone, do not you think that people have blood in the sky, and all types of religion

reply to post by John Matrix


Yeah, you're right, all your stuff equals that the Old Testament having gays killed was right... except... why? Your answer was basically "It's a different time and place" but God ordered the unjustifiable execution of homosexuals. Let alone working on the Sabbath, thanks for reminding me of that, and a false claim of virginity. I'm sure it would be blasphemy to not kill them, thus undermining God and God's order to kill, thus you should be put to death.

Oh right, justifiable... how?!? What good does it do?!?

"I was working so hard on the Sabbath last week cause God told me to build an Ark. I'd got behind scedual due to things trying to corrupt me and my family." (I know that rule probably didn't apply then, but what if it did)
"Kill him! It is God's will."

WHAT GOOD IS THAT?!? How is it not breaking God's own rules... but that's right, God need not play by his own rules. He could never be "evil", after all, right? Maybe God should commit... ... ... How does a God commit suicide as punishment for unjustifiably murdering people? Or be killed as a punishment?

Your answer about Adam and Eve was compelling too, and the snake... I loved not seeing that. No offence but you side stepped all questions.

Wow, you're right... Old Testament = Death and New Testament =... ... ... wait... would there be a NEW Testament without the OLD Testament?!? Would Jesus be any more worthy of the title of messiah then Abalonius (sorry, can't spell it perfectly)?

His followers said he rose from the grave, and performed "miracles".

Anyone else could claim the same thing, so without the Old Testament would Jesus or God really be worth squat?!?

And since you brought up the Old Testaments killing flaws (your 3rd link), lets prepose a scenerio of being back in OT time.

1 - I get back together with my ex-boyfriend (and I do really have an ex-boyfriend) and he and I have sex.
2 - Now you kill me for having performed a homosexual action. This however was not justifiable because I truly love my ex and he and I are not technically trying to corrupt people.
3 - You get killed for having MURDERED me and my boyfriend.
4 - That person who killed you gets killed for having blasphemed (they killed you for doing what God wanted you to do).
5 - Step 4 then cicles indefinately, replacing your killer with the new blaphemer, until all people are dead. Except 1 person.
NOTE: If one person skips killing another, they have gone against Gods will and should be put to death.

This preposes that if everyone believed in the bible and God back in OT times and one person did something God was against, then everyone but 1 person would die. So the question comes to, what kind of good god is that. Or am I interpreting something wrong?!?

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by atlasastro

 

I was referring to Noah's ark...how he killed 99%+ of the population because apparently there were a few demon things running around...

Are you saying that you take the Bible as being true and that your interpretation of it is literal?
You seem confused. You claim that you have carefully studied the Bible but I don't believe this is true.

9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. 13 And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, [3] for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Where are the Demons? I thought you had carefully studied the bible?


The story of Noah is also an example for people. Noah was apparently a righteous man beset by evil all around him. Was Gods intention purely to destroy people? Or was the tale about removing evil, wickedness, and the sin that surrounded Noah? Was it also a lesson of the righteous finding Favor with God?
I doubt you will care to consider these points as you seem intent on ranting a belief, a rather poor religious habit indeed.

Do actions you interpret as being "evil" mean that God is evil?

We know God did not actually flood the world. So is God still evil by your standards? Or are you just pandering to your need to debase God by selecting elements within the bible and placing them in a context that only suits that need.
The US dropped a nuclear Bomb on Japan, ending Japan's War. The dropping of the Bomb was evil. But many would view or accept it as a necessary evil in order to let Good( in the form of peace) to exist. Is the entire USA evil. Is anyone person or entity intrinsically evil just based on one action or even a few that are labelled as evil from a personal perspective.

if he has the power to do that...why not just devise a way to kill those things, and leave the innocent people be?

It is obvious you have no Idea what you are talking about. I suggest you actually read the parts of the Bible you are trying to use to label Gods as being Evil

I know what's right and wrong deep down in my soul...I can feel it...and I know, if that story is true...God's evil...it's that simple...

How do you know what is right and wrong?
We know the story of Noah is not true. So your feelings that you claim reside deep down in your soul are in fact wrong. Claiming abstracts like "souls" as evidence is just like "christians" knowing "God" is good.
I agree with your assessment that your feelings and assertion are simple.



[edit on 22/10/09 by atlasastro]

Imo many things in the bible have to be taken at face value. The comprehension level of what the writers of the bible were witnessing/being told is nowhere near our level of awareness today. And many stories may be nothing more than moral points meant to act as a guide. Obviously God did not directly write the bible. What we have is the interpretation through men from God.

Who knows how much information the bible we have today is missing? Man assembled the bible so who knows what was left out? That’s a troubling issue, but having faith would lead you to believe that we have what we “need”. But im sure there’s much more information hidden away somewhere.

It is odd that at one point in history God felt the need to wipe out existence and hit the restart button with a flood. Was Satan’s grip so tight at that point that there was no other alternative in Gods eyes? Who knows his exact reasons. But he plans on doing it again so that’s a fact we have to deal with. Also when you compare a few years on earth to the eternity beyond… how much weight does this existence really hold?

Who is more evil? I would say godless men that have the assistance of Satan. They are the real cause of all the evil and hardships in this world. Starving children - a fraction of the cost of war, Poverty-mans greed, Money – created by man, Disease – curable but they would lose money… the list goes on and on and on.

No one can speak for God except… God. Anyone who claims to have that authority is full of it. Many men twist and pervert god’s word for their own gain (cough TBN cough). And those who do will have to answer for that one day.

Who are we to question God’s wrath? Personally Im on the side of the “being” that was kind enough to decide that I deserved the opportunity to exist.

If it were up to Satan none of us would have ever been created….

Here a few links you may want to check out…
Famous atheist is stumped
www.youtube.com...

Scientist concering a creator
www.youtube.com...

Consider that Satan is "the father of lies". What better lie than to have a book of God transformed into mainly lies? Twisting things around so that it makes God look like evil and Satan look like God. How do we know the God referred to in the Bible isn't actually Satan? Role reversal maybe?

reply to post by John Matrix


haha...jeez...we've gone in one big circle...your explanations about Noah no longer fit together into one coherent story...just try and do this for me...in one argument...explain to me how EVERYONE except Noah and his family became corrupt (how did the FA's corrupt people?)...and remember...you have to fit it around the fact they live a long time...

Noah and his family were the only one's left on earth who's DNA had not been corrupted....that's why they were spared from the flood.

...now explain to me how there were people who would have been saved if they trusted in Noah (yes, I meant Noah before, not Moses)...so how can everyone be corrupt...but there still be people to save?

They made fun of Noah....they laughed at him....but if one person took the warnings seriously and had repented...I am sure God would have let them on the Ark.

I'm sure if God warned people himself they would have listened...not laughed? So how did more than 10% of the population even hear Noah's warning? God obviously did nothing...and I myself would assume Noah was crazy...as I'm sure anyone else would...and that's perfectly fair...there are a lot of crazy people in the world...

You assume an innocent baby would be born one minute prior to the flood....I think that's a bit much...don't you?

If my math is right...currently...about 140 children are born every minute...

Trust me, the unregenerate corrupt atheist enjoys hell much more than he would enjoy heaven...for if an unprepared soul entered heaven, it would surely think it was in Hell.

What if the Athiest is a perfectly good person...doing as much as they can for the community? They would still enjoy Hell? They are still corrupt?

What if the earth had a shell of frozen water above the upper atmosphere?
What if...
What if...
What if...
What if...

Do you know how stupid that sounds? A frozen water shell? Right...

Did you know they though he was crazy because it had never rained upon the earth?

The plants and trees must have been freakin thirsty...and you do realize basically all of nature relies on evaporation and rain? Without it, we wouldn't even have rivers...do some research pal...take away rain...and you utterly destroy everything...it's a delicate system...it would be a dry waste land...since water wouldn't circulate and resupply rivers etc...plus I'm guessing it'd be freakin cold surrounded by a shell of ice (plus, there was no evaporation, which is caused by heat, meaning no clouds or rain)...that's just beyond ridiculous...go ask a scientists what he thinks the world would be like if there was no rain and we were surrounded by an ice shell...and you state it's above the upper atmosphere...it would melt instantly as the radiation from the sun would cause a fury of nuclear reactions and transmutations...

[edit on 22/10/09 by CHA0S]

reply to post by atlasastro

I doubt you will care to consider these points as you seem intent on ranting a belief, a rather poor religious habit indeed.

We have been discussing those points in depth for a while now...

EDIT: And I'm not ranting anything...this is just a healthy debate...get over it...

[edit on 22/10/09 by CHA0S]

reply to post by atlasastro


America dropping a bomb to supposedly end a war by forcing Japan to unconditionally surrender could very well taken as evil. I mean, America has it's so called "war on drugs" so if a drug user started killing mass amounts of innocent people and ordered the government agree to an uncoditional surrender to allow drugs (and hand over their ruler, aka president) would that be an evil for good? Would that be ok? After all, it wasn't the drug users who started "the war on drugs" it was their government...

Doing something effective and less "evil" in the case of the Nuclear bombings would have been to take out military bases, not highly populated cities. Look on wikipedia for the requirements of a target for the bombings. They wanted MASS CASUALTIES!!! (and before people bitch about using Wikipedia, there are sources for their stuff, even if sources can be faked anyway)

Don't claim doing something "evil" to do something "good" is ok. "The lesser of two evils is still evil."

God's evils are based on his guidelines. He should be punished according to his rules. Or do you say that if a leader of a country massacres the people of the country they rule over, that's ok. God is the supposed ruler of the world, so why does he get a pass for the rules he himself put in place. And if someone states OT VS NT... he committed his sins in OT and should have been punished for them then should he not?

And in the theory of the Earth being corrupt, could that be because God wanted anyone to die that wasn't ideal in his eyes. Gays, people who worked more then him, people who lie, or at least some who lie.

Let alone your "where are the demons"... yeah... where in those passages does it say "And the fact is, we've been infested with demons"... it doesn't. Corrupt to God is like losing at soccer so the coach shoots you. It's over the top bull...

Originally posted by John Matrix
You never answered my question, I will ask you again.....please define what a mystic is?

If you don't know what a mystic is, look it up, it's in all the dictionaties and lexica. Within Judaism you have the Kabalism, within Islam you have Sufiism and so on, these traditions are often way older than religion and is often the very base of it. Do a Google search for "mysticism def", you should find a bunch of material.

[edit on 22/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Neo-Dark
Don't claim doing something "evil" to do something "good" is ok. "The lesser of two evils is still evil."

Can you point out where I make that claim?
I simply used a contemporary example of mass casualties to equate with the Biblical scenario the OP brought up. The point being: is an act that is perceived as Evil enough to infer that God is Evil. Because there is a perception that the act can be seen as good and creates many things to consider when applying the absolutes of Good or Evil. They are essentially acts. We then categorize them along the moral spectrum from whatever point of view we have, there are no absolutes.

God's evils are based on his guidelines. He should be punished according to his rules.

First off, you are already deciding they are Evil for God as well. Why even offer debate?
Where does the Bible illustrate this! Where does God say that he has to abide by the laws he has set for humans? You are using the Christianity inspired by the Bible as your source in the OP, please USE IT.

Or do you say that if a leader of a country massacres the people of the country they rule over, that's ok.

Where do I say that?
My point is that You need to have a context. Because to imply absolutes of good and evil to actions is impossible and stupid. The OP is doing this in the examples he uses. The context in the example the OP uses is that God wiped out the human race save for Noah and his family. The context of the example is not as simple as the OP or you would have us consider. You are dealing with these issues from a literal point of view, as if these event actually happened and that these infer absolutes in relation to the Good and Evil of God. This is absurd. You are asking Why is God good. I am offering possible reasons as to why people perceive this as being so.

You can argue that Gods action are Unjust or Unreasonable. But how do you argue that for an Entity that is described as being all powerful, absolute creator etc , etc.
You can only do that from a Human perspective. A perspective afforded to you by that all powerful, absolute creator. The points of reference, even the notions of Evil, Justice, Good and Injustice are aspects of that very being and not definitive of it. Good and Evil-These are aspects of finite existence, points on a spectrum of human experience. A tool for us and not a description of that which created it all.

God is the supposed ruler of the world, so why does he get a pass for the rules he himself put in place. And if someone states OT VS NT... he committed his sins in OT and should have been punished for them then should he not?

Look at what you just wrote. God is supposed to be the ruler of the world so he theoretically can do whatever he wants. Is good bound by the moral imperatives that dictate us. You are trying to understand an entity that is too abstract to understand and then requesting that it behave with anthropomorphic characteristic in relation to Good and Evil. Further more, what is even more absurd is that the dichotomy of Good and Evil that the OP brought up is inspired by that very God of the Bible but nowhere in the Bible is that God described as being restricted to that dichotomy.

And in the theory of the Earth being corrupt, could that be because God wanted anyone to die that wasn't ideal in his eyes. Gays, people who worked more then him, people who lie, or at least some who lie.

Quite possibly. Read the damn book and find out yourself. God apparently promised that after the "flood" he would never do anything like that again. I hope that bit is literally true. ,

Let alone your "where are the demons"... yeah... where in those passages does it say "And the fact is, we've been infested with demons"... it doesn't. Corrupt to God is like losing at soccer so the coach shoots you. It's over the top bull...

Your analogy is asinine. But to play along, if you coached people to win, and winning was to become something eternal and wonderful yet the team deliberately ignored the coaches instructions and that meant losing and joining the devils team, what would be the point of keeping the team? That is what the Noah scenario is about. Only one player was kept. Noah. If you think this is excessive, take it up with god. Wether or not this makes god evil is up to whatever personal perspective you have.
The OP brought up the rational that God created the Flood to destroy demons. This is not true. I asked the OP where the demons are mentioned because the OP claimed that this was not a good enough reason to destroy everyone when god could simply destroy the demons instead. I simply asked what the OP was referring to because God destroyed people based on other factors and not demons. Please read the posts properly.

What are Good and Evil?
How do we apply them to any one thing, idea, action, thought.
Can we use them in absolutes in describing anything as just being good or evil, without fully considering the context of actions and consequences? We can't. That is why we have stupid arguments like this.
If You and OP are free to take the literal road in relation to the use of scenarios in the bible, then literally, the OP like yourself must accept too that:If God is the absolute power over everything as the bible states we must consider Good and Evil as just aspects or points of reference of our perception of that everything. Then indeed God is Both Good and Evil as well as everything else in between. We, as finite beings are only privy to aspects of Gods actions, we can ponder these action as appearing along the spectrum of Good and Evil, but God is that very Spectrum, the whole of it and not merely definable by points along it. So God is not just Good and not just Evil. God is God, and anything God does is just an act of God.
So can you define something, that in the bible is literally responsible for everything, as just being one thing in that everything?
I don't think you can.

Which is why we can contextualize and twist and interpret and perceive ad nauseam about abstracts like God and the Devil and books like the Bible.

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by atlasastro

 

We have been discussing those points in depth for a while now...

EDIT: And I'm not ranting anything...this is just a healthy debate...get over it...

[edit on 22/10/09 by CHA0S]

Debate?
This was one of your earliest posts. You are merely ranting. Not debating. You don't address any of the points I raise, or consider aspects of the debate I address. You short replies are evidence of this.

it's just plain evil however you look at it...I couldn't give a rats $@# if it was God...big freakin deal...he still has no right...

Here you dismiss any other perception that is not agreeing with your "its evil stance".post by CHA0S

Here is my reply to the above comment.
post by atlasastro

And here is your "debate".

I know what's right and wrong deep down in my soul...I can feel it...and I know, if that story is true...God's evil...it's that simple...

Rant. No discussion. Just statements of opinion.post by CHA0S
My reply to that rant here:post by atlasastro

And more constructive debate from you here NOT:

Originally posted by CHA0S

We have been discussing those points in depth for a while now...

EDIT: And I'm not ranting anything...this is just a healthy debate...get over it...

[edit on 22/10/09 by CHA0S]

In depth.
No, we have not been discussing those points. You may be discussing points with others but you have not addressed any on my points.
In depth.



[edit on 22/10/09 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by atlasastro

Originally posted by Neo-Dark
Don't claim doing something "evil" to do something "good" is ok. "The lesser of two evils is still evil."

Can you point out where I make that claim?
I simply used a contemporary example of mass casualties to equate with the Biblical scenario the OP brought up. The point being: is an act that is perceived as Evil enough to infer that God is Evil. Because there is a perception that the act can be seen as good and creates many things to consider when applying the absolutes of Good or Evil. They are essentially acts. We then categorize them along the moral spectrum from whatever point of view we have, there are no absolutes.

Lamentations 3:38 "Does not God command both good and evil?"

Or like it is written in the NLT:
La 3:38 "Is it not the Most High who helps one and harms another?"

The concept of good and evil is always biased and subjective. What is a blessing for one, is a curse for the other....

Numbers 22:22 "But God was furious, and sent Satan in the shape of the Angel of Jahveh. Bileam rode his donkey together with his two servants."

God sends Satan to stop Bileam from cursing Israel....

Psalms 109:6 "Appoint an evil man to oppose him. Let Satan stand at his right hand."

David beggs God to send Satan to his enemy.....

Most Christians don't realise that Satan is infact a tool of God. God's state atteurney. Satan is God's right arm, and the Son of Man stands by his side....

reply to post by atlasastro

Debate?
This was one of your earliest posts. You are merely ranting. Not debating. You don't address any of the points I raise, or consider aspects of the debate I address. You short replies are evidence of this.

I actually have been discussing the points you brought up, in depth...and if you read past the first few pages you would see that...and this is why I didn't respond to any of your questions...I have already discussed those points...hence the short reply to you. Now lets stop this bickering and get back to the topic at hand...thank you.

reply to post by CHA0S


Dude, my first replies are on page One and two. You discussed nothing. Nice try. Yet again another indepth debate.

My replies on this page are specific to claims and you poor understanding of the examples you use.

I understand your reluctance to address the failures in your own opinion.


[edit on 22/10/09 by atlasastro]