In Christianity, Why is Satan Evil, and God Good? What is Evil?

reply to post by John Matrix

Who's doing that?
Are you talking about OT times?
We live in NT times.

And? So what? Murdering homosexuals back then was part of what God told people as part of preventing "corruption", correct, and what good did it bring? What did it save people from? 2 homosexuals (or bisexuals or 1 of each) dead are worth no more then they were alive, they are worth less. The bible advocates having them die. The 10 commandments were in Exodus so this is still just as bad then.

Whether they be bi and still may end up breeding in the end, or whether they are truly homosexual then they can still help out with the work, they are still muscle if someone tries to invade. They are worth more to a clan ALIVE then dead, are they not?

Cool, but that won't save you or give you eternal life.

Well, me not jumping off the bridge will save me from dying... and potentially net me the PS3 and Laptop.

Anyway, as I asked, is it just and fair for God to punish us (or the poor snakes who are still on their bellies) for what others have done?

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Neo-Dark]

And the Hebrew word translated Evil in our bibles, Ra, as in contrast to Towb, means bad. The concept of evil, as in Catholic dogma and Christian theology, is rather modern. The idea that there is an evil force in the world challenging a higher good force, well, it's not scriptual.

reply to post by CHA0S


We don't really know much about what opportunities or warnings God gave to the pre flood inhabitants.....what we do know is that Noah spent 100 years building an Ark that God commanded him to build. Do you think that during those 100 years the message of God's plan of destruction would have gone to all corners of the earth and all inhabitants? I think so!!

Did the people take the warnings seriously? No!! They made fun of Noah....they laughed at him....but if one person took the warnings seriously and had repented...I am sure God would have let them on the Ark.

I am glad you are searching. If you have problems with the Bible, the first thing that comes to mind is you are probably not reading a modern translation, and you probably are not using any verse by verse commentaries from scholars or from teams of scholars. John F. MaCarthur Junior has produced a very good set of commentaries.....but many are available on line.

You do not approach the Bible like you would a paper back novel. You must approach it as an investigator, and put all your personal biases aside.
There is 2000 years of serious Biblical studies and scholarship that lie behind us....and we can benefit from that today...on the Internet....like no previous generation ever was able to do.

That I am aware of, there is not one proposed contradiction that has not been reasonably explained. Every time someone proposes a contradiction on ATS....I go and do some research and within a few minutes I find the answers to debunk the supposed contradictions or misunderstanding.

Try me if you like.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And the Hebrew word translated Evil in our bibles, Ra, as in contrast to Towb, means bad. The concept of evil, as in Catholic dogma and Christian theology, is rather modern. The idea that there is an evil force in the world challenging a higher good force, well, it's not scriptual.

There is an evil force at work. Satan, demons, fallen angels, etc.

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Please be careful not mislead those who might be coming to the FAITH with false assumtions concerning scripture.




[edit on 21/10/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by CHA0S
Through careful study of texts in the bible, or at least major one’s (and one‘s often told to children at Sunday school), you can see a definite trend to people claiming God is good, Satan is Evil, but why is that?

In Moses and the Red Sea the Pharaoh (in Exodus) had Moses and “his people” as slaves. God told Moses to go to Pharaoh to request for Moses’ people to be set free. The Pharaoh refused of course and thus God was angered. He sent a set of punishments to the Pharaoh because of this. Among one of the punishments he gave the Pharaoh was that every first born Egyptian child dies. This of course punishes the innocent too does it not, killing countless children for what someone else did. However, this is often told to kids in Sunday school as God doing good work. How is him killing a bunch of innocents good?

Noah’s Ark, another famous story told to children, in which God washes away the mistakes of the world by having it rain for days. Of course the story goes that Noah was told by god to make an Ark and that when it was made 2 of every animal boarded (This is not based on whether this is plausible to do such a thing so please do not bring it up) and the world was then flooded. Of course apart from the 2 of every animal on the Ark would have drowned and those that were left, they would have returned to a home which was greatly damaged by all the gushing water of the flood, and some wouldn’t have been able to have survived in the new environment and died anyway. (Once again, please don’t get into the fact that they’d have to inbreed and that at one point the bible counted this as ok but God changed his mind, this is not part of this) Our point here, is how is killing 99%+ of animals and humans good?

However, I haven’t heard much of Satan going out and mass murdering innocents or killing 99%+ of the animals, and yet God has, and God is considered all good, correct?

It has been written that “Thou Shalt Not Kill”, as one of the commandments, but at points the bible states that "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13) (I’m not getting into the point that technically it says nothing about female homosexuals exactly and thus God is a sexual bigot) as well as other parts inciting killing, or murdering someone, for what they’ve done wrong in God’s eyes. Yet I’ve never heard of Satan saying that someone should die, just because of who that person falls in love with and has sexual relations with. No offence but isn’t saying someone should die because of who they love?

Talking about killing in God’s name, many years ago I believe Christians burnt many people alive, claiming they were practising magic. However, in Jesus’ case, who supposedly performed miracles like turning water into wine, healing the wounded miraculously and so on and so forth, and yet he himself is considered good and blessed and somewhat idolized and worshipped. Why is this? Just cause of who his father was?

Based on what the bible says you should not think for yourself and to blindly obey, is that not the thinking of a slave driver, to have you do their bidding unquestioningly and not thinking for yourself? By the way, I am referring to; Proverbs 3:5 “Trust in the lord with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding.” Is being a slave driver then counted as good? Or only if you are God? Why does God get away with the very acts he himself supposedly has punished?

I’ve also read about a man named Job’s. Supposedly Satan challenged God to prove that he has followers who would believe unquestioningly, even without all he has. God agreed and had most, if not all, of Jobs animals were killed or stolen, had his servants slaughtered, killed his children in a storm and had him fall ill, and as Job stilled turned to God, Satan was wrong… but in this case can you really attribute it to LOVE OF GOD. He believed God had just killed a bunch of his stuff and done all this horrible stuff to him, he could be fearing God that much that he felt that he had to appease him. He’d already lost his family, and his livelihood. And whose hand played this foul trick? God. He agreed to having Job lose everything, and he would thus as much be to blame as Satan, would he not? He ruined someone’s life out of pride. Why did he need to prove this point to anyone, especially Satan? (Look in the bible under; Job) [I have read the ending too where God BLESSES Job, but what about the kids of Job’s who died out of God’s arrogance?] Where is the goodness there?

It is stated that God’s only agreement to the use of blood is as a worship sacrifice to atone for sins (Leviticus 17:11) and thus blood transfusions are against the teachings of God, meaning that if you NEED a blood transfusion, God would rather have you die. As one’s blood is only meant to be used for worship. So, God telling you to choose death instead of life is good too then I presume?

I must ask now, what has Satan done wrong to be labelled as evil?

I found this video to help illustrate our point in this.

// This has been a joint effort by CHA0S and Neo-Dark //

Satan's greatest trick was not making man believe in him. Satan's greatest trick was making man believe he is god. I believe the bible is the so called wool that has been pulled over peoples eyes.

reply to post by John Matrix


Well here's another good point...you state that all DNA had become corrupt...therefor he had to wash them all away...except Noah of course...he's family was still pure...but...if he did have 100 years...I'm sure God would have commanded him to start building the boat before the majority of people had become corrupt...not wait till the last second...in order to try and save as many people as possible...now we are left with a problem...how did every person on Earth except Noah's family have their DNA become corrupt in that time? Did the fallen angels have some sort of genetics altering device...because I'm assuming it was the children of anyone these fallen angels had sex with...in this case...I doubt they had sex with every person on Earth except Noah...then everyone died of old age (except Noah) and only the corrupt kids remain...so a problem still remains...if they could instantly infect people...even if Noah managed to convince people there would be a massive flood, what defense do they have against DNA corruption...the FA's were obviously on an infection spree or something...

[edit on 21/10/09 by CHA0S]

reply to post by Lichter daraus


Not that I'm angry or anything...but is it really necessary to quote the whole opening post? It's kind of a waste of space...

[edit on 21/10/09 by CHA0S]

reply to post by John Matrix


Just because you believe so, and Christian priests have forced gullible fools to believe it, there is no such thing as Good or Evil other than in highly biased circumstances. What is good to me, like state leaders settling peace, is to you perhaps a sign of the Antichrist and evil. The concept of good and evil is all black and white. Dualism and polarity is bad theology. It has no scriptual foundation. If Satan is the ultimate evil, then why would God send him as the Angel of God to stop Bileam whom you also say is evil from cursing Israel (Numbers 22:22)? Is battling evil evil? Looks like it is, in light of your understanding of the concept good and evil. Or how about David begging God to send Satan to make his enemy be judged in Psalms 109?

That you are paranoid doesn't mean you're right that evil beings are flying around making your life misserable.

[edit on 21/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by John Matrix


If its all Satan's fault for tempting me, how do I get the blame?

When I have done something wrong...I was able to later learn from MY wrong and why I did what I did.

How can faith in something or a belief in something make you a better person?

How is knowing that Satan caused the temptation makes me a better person?

Do you really believe that one must have God to be a good person?

And yet God gives us logical minds to think things out with....and we are telling people that are using logic (a absolute knowing they cant see God) are wrong and wont have rest one day just seems like a shallow path to follow.

To think if all material items were taken from me, including all books....that I couldnt be a good person from experiences with guilt, regrets, empathy ect....and to observe how nature is a giver and offers itself repeatedly....that these things in themselves wont lead me to do better and find a good nature....well then that is saying without a material object we cant find God.

You say there are no contradictions. Just because you rationalize in your mind why it was OK for God to do things doesnt make it so that Thee would of done those things. Are you really seeking what God's nature would be? Would it not make more sense that the nature of God is within all things that hold life, within the blueprint of the world itself?

The majoirty of the time, I ask questions...and they really dont get answered. In the end I receive the statement of .....well 'he' is God and that justifies what 'he' does. Think about that....isnt this a sure sign of abuse of power? And you said the evil we are to fight is the 'powers'.

?
LV

I would also still like someone to answer my point about 'after' the flood.

If this was a sure thing God did, to wipe out the bad seed (bad DNA)...then why why why was this bad seed still in the Earth after the flood?

reply to post by LeoVirgo

How can faith in something or a belief in something make you a better person?

How is knowing that Satan caused the temptation makes me a better person?

Do you really believe that one must have God to be a good person?

Dude...right on...have you seen this new thread: Atheist ads to adorn New York subway stations...the poster will read: "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?" Although the OP didn't think that was the best thing to put on the poster...I actually found it quite good...

In the end I receive the statement of .....well 'he' is God and that justifies what 'he' does. Think about that....isnt this a sure sign of abuse of power

Hmmmm...it certiantly feels like that doesn't it? He just gets to do anything he likes...after all...he's God..he can even break his own rules...give me a break...

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Lichter daraus

 

Not that I'm angry or anything...but is it really necessary to quote the whole opening post? It's kind of a waste of space...

[edit on 21/10/09 by CHA0S]

Not that I'm angry or anything...but do you have to post off topic posts? Its kind of a waist of your time...

PEACE!!!

P.S. I know this will get deleted, not only because its off topic, but i have a mod who has something against me.

reply to post by CHA0S



Hello Chaos...I have enjoyed reading and writing here in this thread. I think you have brought great points up. But just for my own knwoing that I am clear in where I stand...I just want to state where I come from with my thoughts. At least they are my own thoughts, and not things another man has told me.

As my posts may sound as if I support being good without God...I just respect how others arent seeing this or need this idea. I know it sounds as if I may not need a 'God'...but I dont deny that there is a Divine Force that sustains life itself.

Saying that....I equally see both sides of the fence. I dont expect a person to believe in something they cant see. The very idea that I have traveled this path does not make me any more sane or in the 'know' as anyone else. All I can say is that my seeking lead me to experiences that science, man, nor a book...could explain to me. Ironic that I was a Christian for over 20 yrs but when I finally really started 'seeking' (practicing a more humble thought, treating my body as if it was a Temple, treating others like they were my own self) my experiences lead me away from the book. At first it lead me to MANY books...but eventually, it lead me to 'nature'.

Christians say...to me....well Im sure atheiest sure like your point of view. Well, an atheist wouldnt know my point of view unless they fall apone my words in a thread.

I let nature show the way. Nature is a self giver. Nature offer's itself over and over and over, for life to be sustained. Life is about 'offering'. But the Bible teaches Sacrifice. To me, sacrifice is a 'forced' event. Its saying...this MUST happen, for you to enter here. That 'sacrifice' means something or someone HAD to die...had to be killed. Then they tell me, but do not kill is the Holy Law.

I went round and round with myself about my path. Even though I do believe there is a higher power, I dont see the need in 'knowing' this power exsist. If it was necessary that we know this...that power would of made it obvious it exsist. Its not obvious, I can see that. So I dont think that 'believing' is a requirment of what our purpose here is.

I think nature shows us our purpose. Shows us that we are to be 'givers'. Shows us that things must return from where they came from. Shows us orders and cycles.

So I sit in a very quiet place in my stance. Not many join me...and that is ok. I am not living to be glorified by any man. Saying that...I do often join the atheist side of the argument or debate because it is just more logically most of the time. I think God (if we can look at it from that perspective for a moment) gave us eyes for a reason...gave us ears for a reason, gave us touch for a reason...ect.....to think God would not fulfill itself through any of those sense's along with giving us this cognitive brain of ours to think with...then I dont think the purpose of this life is about finding 'God'. I think its about finding your truest self within.

I would like to think that I do support logical thinking.....on the other side, I have experienced things that this logical world can not explain to me in any way. I dont support God leaving man directions in a book...but yet instead....left answers in life...the one thing that is here, has been here, will be here...that wont be destroyed.

And even the Bible tells them.....do not store up things that will rust and can be destroyed and do not follow the scribes. I have more issues with religions then I have with no religions, I will say that.

Not sure if that makes any sense...but...there it is.

LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hi LeoVirgo,

Yes, I did realize you believe in God, by seeing your signature...and I just wish more Christians were like you...although I'm not fully sure if you are Christian...in any case...you make some brilliant points...God did give us 5 senses and a cognitive brain for a reason (if he exists)...I myself don't really know if God exists...nor does anyone else on Earth for that matter...therefor I sit on the side lines...it's just as arrogant to say God doesn't exist, as it is to say he does exist IMO...so I just go about my life, being the best person I can...and that's all I can do...if God does exist...I just hope that's enough to get into Heaven...or at least avoid Hell...

EDIT: I'll be back in 8 hours or so...need some sleep...although I don't want to as I was enjoying our little conversation

[edit on 21/10/09 by CHA0S]

reply to post by CHA0S

In Moses and the Red Sea the Pharaoh (in Exodus) had Moses and “his people” as slaves. God told Moses to go to Pharaoh to request for Moses’ people to be set free. The Pharaoh refused of course and thus God was angered. He sent a set of punishments to the Pharaoh because of this. Among one of the punishments he gave the Pharaoh was that every first born Egyptian child dies

It would appear that you were lied to in sunday school, the Egyptians did not have up to 2 million Hebrew slaves there is no evidence for this whatsoever.

No Pharaoh chased after these supposed slaves which were supposed to include 600000 armed men (that's right armed men) across the red sea which miraculously parted for the slaves.

Total bunkum, so if this, probably the most important episode in the bibles did not actually happen then, it's highly likely a big chunk of the rest did not happen.

As there is little evidence for anything else in the bibles it would be fair to conclude that it is almost all bunkum.

If almost all of the bibles is bunkum then the san yahwhe thing is most certainly bunkum ie 2 imaginary characters in a book of fairy tales.

However, you could propose that the Hebrew story has a lot in common with the events of Tel El Armana, that would certainly throw a little light on things. Unfortunately this would quite probably lead to the conclusion that the Israelis are descendants of the Egyptians and no imaginary man in the sky told them they could slaughter the Canaanites in order to steal their land.

reply to post by CHA0S


You assume too much about the pre flood world. People lived to be much older before the flood and it was a very different world.

God is very slow to anger, and even slower in his wrath....which is why so many atheists are still around shooting their mouths off.

God is patient, merciful, and just, wanting all to have the opportunity to be saved. That's why people had 100 years to consider.

Since Jesus time, they have had 2000 years to consider.....but as in the days of Noah, so shall it be at His second coming. On that day, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

If its all Satan's fault for tempting me, how do I get the blame?

Because you have been given a choice and a free will to make that choice.
Scripture speaks of God having said:

Today I set before you life or death, a blessing of a curse.

You pick to follow the spirit of this world(satan).
or
The Spirit which is from God.

The consequences of your choice are made clear.
You have no one to blame but yourself.

You make yourself be a conduit through which Satan can do his dirty deeds and in doing so you waste your powers and your life.

reply to post by John Matrix


You didn't really supply an answer with your last post...and what your basically saying is...people lived older, and the ones that weren't corrupted (It was the kids that were corrupted right? So we'd still have lots of uncorrupted people if they lived longer...even if they were instantly corrupted by the fallen angels...the FA's would need to be on a corruption spree as I said...so I think we can agree in any case lots of uncorrupted people were left), still had a chance at savior if they trusted in Moses? Would you hop aboard if some dude started shouting to the world there's going to be a flood? Would 10% of the world even hear his warning? Is it right to allow these people to die because they thought this guy was an obvious nut case? The more you say...the more loop holes you leave...and I'm going to exploit every last one...

Try me if you like

EDIT: And have you ever thought about the illogicality with a world flood? I mean...you'd either have to sink the land...or poor more water into our atmosphere...

[edit on 21/10/09 by CHA0S]

Brilliant posting...and for a few days I was considering doing a thread like this...trying to figure out how to phrase it without it seeming simply nonsense.

Your right, good eye...God says he is good while doing unspeakable evil...He calls Satan evil.

Satan shrugs, seems to interfere with man by doing horrible things like empowering mankind with knowledge, civilization tools, and finding self worth verses kneeling..to use the divine within you to make change verses ignore it in the name of God (Jesus talks to Satan in the desert and the "tempting"...Jesus said many times he is no different than anyone else, and he is God...therefore, we all are divine).

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears...and the bible shows some pretty rotten fruit (actions).

The bible, I believe, destroys personal spiritual growth. It forbids you to use your inner divinity, forbids you to investigate in paranormal stuff, forbid forbid forbid...

to do differently would be to follow satan...mhmm...high time we reconsider things.

reply to post by John Matrix


What about a one-minute-old baby that was drowned by god in the flood. Already corrupted? Give me a break. Your logic is deeply flawed ...