Asked to leave church and not come back.

Originally posted by jmotley
A few years ago I was asked to leave a church because of the questions I was asking. I asked very simple questions that I thought anyone that had training should be able to answer. Here are the questions. (these were asked to ministers, pastors, and cathloic priest, it was the roman cathloic priest that asked me not to return).

If I were a priest of the Catholic Church, I would also kick you out for those questions. It is all about how you word them. Some of your questions come off as insults.

Example: Within your first question, you disrespected the bible by calling it a book. Maybe you should have said, "What makes the holy bible such a relevant artifact for worship? Why is it so important to put faith into such of an impressive religious artifact?" If you phrased your questions in such a manner, the priest would have taken you more seriously.

Write your questions down again, but make them seem more sympathetic.

reply to post by Vicky32

Contrary to what was claimed with incredible anger and force by an atheist I debated in 2007, no one worships the cross!

Interesting claim.
And how did you argue your point?
Claiming that some so-called Christians do worship the cross does not make you an atheist.
It is clear enough to me that they do, and in the early sixteen hundreds, when the Protestant Reformation came to Italy, that was the test before they executed suspected Protestants. They would hold a cross before them and were commanded to give it worship. If they did, they would be allowed to live. If not, they were immediately put to death.

Like any other theory, philosophy, or system, the Christian faith can be illustrated something like a bullseye you'd throw darts at, i.e. concentric circles, with the innermost or center being the core principles. I have tried to find the various "rings" or levels through lifelong Bible study, and the innermost I wrote in this article:

If you’re familiar with the science fiction movie" I, Robot" or with writer Isaac Asimov, you know about the Three Laws of Robotics. In the movie there is a slogan about the newest line of human-like robots being “Three Laws Safe”, meaning humans could completely trust them.

But I think Christianity could use a “three laws” kind of thing, as an alternative to the pedantic complexity that confuses some people, makes others conceited, and is largely ignored by most. The “deep things of God” (1 Cor. 2:10) are a vast treasure trove of knowledge, but not everyone is interested in going there. They just want to live.

So I came up with this as a first draft and would be interested in any feedback:

Law One

A Christian must believe that Jesus, the embodiment of the one and only God, died to reconcile mankind to God and rose physically from the dead.

Law Two

A Christian must live to please God above all: by avoiding anything God has called ‘sin’, by adopting an attitude of humility and service toward others, their property, and the natural world, and by taking reasonable care of all of those as s/he is able.

Law Three

A Christian is free to act and believe as s/he chooses, provided such actions and beliefs do not conflict with, add to, or subtract from the First or Second Law.

Basically, the first law means you can’t add Jesus to an existing religion or subtract belief in His death and resurrection. The second means no “lording over” or poor stewardship. The third means no micromanagement.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Contrary to what was claimed with incredible anger and force by an atheist I debated in 2007, no one worships the cross!

Interesting claim.
And how did you argue your point?
Claiming that some so-called Christians do worship the cross does not make you an atheist.
It is clear enough to me that they do, and in the early sixteen hundreds, when the Protestant Reformation came to Italy, that was the test before they executed suspected Protestants. They would hold a cross before them and were commanded to give it worship. If they did, they would be allowed to live. If not, they were immediately put to death.

edit on 17-6-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Seriously? Are you making stuff up?
In other words. can you (attempt) to provide proof of what you say? Had Bladdersac or whatever his name was, known of that, he'd have used it against me, that's guaranteed, and in spite of his being American, he had a better education than 90% of ATS - though not we Brits obviously!
So, I will just say "citation needed"...

reply to post by Vicky32

So, I will just say "citation needed"...

No, I am not making stuff up.
You can read History of the Progress and Suppression of the Reformation in Italy, by Thomas M'Crie. It is available in PDF at the Internet Archive.

I don't disagree with your questions, but it's clear you weren't asking them expecting answers. You were simply criticizing the church in the form of questions. You're being disingenuous in pretending that you were simply asking questions. Until you can admit that's what you were doing, I don't see what your point is. Your questions are not new and you're not being particularly insightful in asking them.

I don't blame the priest for asking you to leave. You were using a guise of innocence to be intentionally disruptive. You weren't fooling anyone.

reply to post by jmotley


ETA didnt realize this was an old thread.

Excellent post. I dont know why it had only 1 star and 1 flag.

I asked myself similar questions, from the protestant perspective. But I never lost the perspective that the catholics started it all.

Small wonder they kicked your ass to the curb for asking these very awkward questions, It was easier for them to just kick you out than to answer them honestly. Plus, they could not have a loose cannon like you in their church, asking other people these same questions.

They would have kick me out too, if I had asked some pastors similar questions, but I knew better than to ask them anything, They will lie when the truth will save them. I went searching on my own.

Your questions do not have answers. The only thing people will offer you is excuses. I can tell that without having to read peoples responses. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

reply to post by jmotley


I haven't read the other responses, but I will later tonight.

After I read your questions it hit me like a ton of bricks - why in the world are you asking these questions to a priest in the first place who is but a mere man? Just because he has some formal education in theology doesn't mean a whole lot. Abraham never went to a theology class and he had an awesome relationship with God. Same with King David. He was a mere shephard, who made huge mistakes during his walk with God yet he was called 'a man after God's own heart."

There are many people who don't follow Roman catholicism who have very intimate relationships with God the Father, through Jesus. In fact, Jesus stated that the "true worshipers" of God are the ones who do so in spirit and truth and it is THESE people that God seeks. For God is a spirit.

There are so many different denominations when it comes to Christianity it can become a bit confusing. I love to read, research and study near death experiences, especially the ones where a person reports seeing Jesus in the afterlife, so I'll add something more for you to ponder. On more than one occasion people have asked this living Jesus why there are so many different denominations and he has given the same answer more than once 'they are here for a reason. not everyone is of the same spiritual understanding and at the same level of spirituality.'

When you have questions such as these immerse yourself in the word and look to the one who can answer your questions. All you need to do is work on your personal relationship with God.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

You need to find the spiritual door - the one he claims he can open and once open noone can shut. It's only a matter of how bad you want it.

reply to post by jmotley


Same thing happened to me, friend. In 1967 or 68. I had a few questions for the preacher, who proceeded to inform me that all of the answers I was seeking were in the Bible, and to read it more. So, being not only an avid reader, but a natural speed reader, within two weeks I had read it, took notes, and used my Mom's Strong's Concordance so much it has paged coming out of it. when I returned to the church, a Church of God. and presented my list of near 100 questions to the preacher and deacon, they told me the following things:
1. It is a sin to question the word of God.
2. Gaining knowledge like that was also a sin.
3. Never, ever read, study, or do research on anything "Occult."
4. Leave this church and don't bother to come back.
Well, I had not heard that word"occult" before, so I went home and looked it up.

Occult:
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.
2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.
3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.
dictionary.reference.com...

Why is it hidden, I wondered? I completely understand the number two definition,
beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding. and as I grew older, I understood it even more. Even today there are a lot of people I talk to that have not the intelligence, learning, and knowledge to understand me or what I say.
This thing sent me on a search to discover the truth about the christian religion, and if you read me, you know at lease some of the things I have uncovered, and discovered. I will not detail any of those things here, just look at my profile.
Religion is Brainwashing, I have come to believe, and once a person come into the "fold," and gets "saved," the learning and accumulation of knowledge stops.
I am naturally a curious sort, and glad that I am, for never again will I be taken in by the lies of the Church. I found out why they don't want one to study the Occult, too.

reply to post by jmotley


That's sad to hear, although the original doctrine DOES condemn non-believers.

And it does "predict" that many people will not believe.

I don't think this Preists was acting contradictory to what the "word of God" states.

"Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." -- 2 John 9

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-17

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

SOURCE: skepticsannotatedbible.com...

I don't think this is a case of anomalous condemnatio, more a case of biblical projection; if it's written in the bible, and the bible is claimed to be authentic; can you blame him for wishing you to leave?

Again, sorry to hear that.

Peace, and civility.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Vicky32

 

So, I will just say "citation needed"...

No, I am not making stuff up.
You can read History of the Progress and Suppression of the Reformation in Italy, by Thomas M'Crie. It is available in PDF at the Internet Archive.

I would vastly have preferred a link to a website, but I will see if I can find the thing you're talking about. I am not hopeful though.
Can you tell me something about this author? When he was writing, what research he did? Because the story just screams 'urban legend' to me.
Later : Google gave me a surprising amount of hits, mostly for Amazon etc, luckily one was to Google books. I am not reading a PDF on my screen, and I don't have a printer, so I entered 'worship the cross' in the search box.
Two pages were found. (41 and 288)
I can't read page 41 for some reason, but on p 288, I see a lot of rumour and shock, horror stories which are without support themselves.
Sorry, my great-grandfather was a thud and blunder Presbyterian here in New Zealand in the 1880s. He had a fund of such horror stories, that he taught his son, my grandfather. My mother had a lifelong hatred of Catholicism even though it was based solely on these horror stories from her grandfather. (Presbyterianism was a very different thing then from what it is now).
However I can't find the particular horror story that you told above. The closest I can find apart from the xenophobic sneers on p288) is a phrase about 'adoration of the cross' (in Spain.) One thing Protestants simply don't seem to get, is that adoration is not worship...
Vicky

reply to post by Vicky32
try this:
www.archive.org...
He was the biographer of John Knox, so he was a ways back but he was around when the original source material was available. The history of what happened in Italy has been deeply suppressed, so he is one of the few people who wrote about it and knew what was going on.
Any church that gets too much power will become abusive, and it just so happens that the Catholic Church had more power than was safe to give anyone.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Vicky32

 

try this:
www.archive.org...
He was the biographer of John Knox, so he was a ways back but he was around when the original source material was available. The history of what happened in Italy has been deeply suppressed, so he is one of the few people who wrote about it and knew what was going on.
Any church that gets too much power will become abusive, and it just so happens that the Catholic Church had more power than was safe to give anyone.

Specifically anti-Catholic hate-spewing doesn't impress me one iota. It's so convenient that "history of what happened in Italy has been deeply suppressed, so he is one of the few people who wrote about it and knew what was going on"... because I assure you that from what I can see, it's his little secret!
You're clearly one of those "Oh Noez, Catholics are not Christians" fanatics, so how, pray tell, does an unsupported and inaccessible story told by a hard-line Calvinist centuries ago, prove that any Christian does now or ever has worshipped the Cross?
Disclaimer - I am a hybrid Anglo-Catholic/evangelical Proestant, and so I do believe that Catholics are Christians. Nevertheless, I simply don't believe your story.

reply to post by Vicky32
Well, have a nice time in you fantasy world where all so-called Christians are good, except for those evil "spewers" who want to know history. I won't bother you with any facts and set you to "ignore".

oops, looks like they got rid of the "ignore" button, well they used to have one.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Well, have a nice time in you fantasy world where all so-called Christians are good, except for those evil "spewers" who want to know history. I won't bother you with any facts and set you to "ignore".

oops, looks like they got rid of the "ignore" button, well they used to have one.

edit on 19-6-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

What a truly nasty response!
I called you out on the fact that your assertion that "Christians worship the cross" can't be supported. It can't. (I am not wading through that book, no matter what you say, and doing searches on the words relevant to your assertion, produces nothing, zip, nada, niente!
Ignore or not, why should I care? Either you're a hardline Calvinist or an Angry-Internet-Atheist. Either way, you twist everything I say.
Have a nice life in Hate-land, with mims, a-and-a, and all the rest!