Asked to leave church and not come back.

A few years ago I was asked to leave a church because of the questions I was asking. I asked very simple questions that I thought anyone that had training should be able to answer. Here are the questions. (these were asked to ministers, pastors, and cathloic priest, it was the roman cathloic priest that asked me not to return)

1) How can I be expected to put my faith in a book that was written over a millinia ago. Be written by the divine hand of God or not, it was still left in the hands of mere mortal men who are at heart corrupt.

1b) (Asked specfically to the roman cathlioc priest) How also can I put my faith that has controlled a large portion of the world for hundreds of years, putting to death any that opposed their rule, using blackmail and extortion to aquire the land that the Vatican currently sits and using the mafia and various other illeagal means including trafficing drugs, stock manilpulation, and murder to ensure that you remain in power.

2) Why is your way of worshipping God acceptible, but not anothers. (in other words whats with the Im right your wrong mentality)

3) In christianity as a whole we learn about accept people, to try to live in harmony with our fellow man. Why then do you condem homosexuals. Does the bible not say "let yea without sin cast the first stone"

4) Are christians not guilty of idololgy. I.E. Worshipping a statue, and also whats amounts to a death steak.

This is as far as I was able to get. before I realized most answers were not an answer at all. Telling me to "have faith" is not an answwer. Telling me that that I do not have the facts to support my claims is not an answer and when I produce documents in an attempt to prove myself asking me to leave is certinly not an answer.

I will say that after growing up with a religious background, serving as an alterboy for 10yrs and simply being human and wanting to know about the religion entitles me to these answers. In my two year study I have compleatly shattered my faith. Yes I still believe there is a "God" But our idea of him is so long gone that I ever wonder if we will get it back.

So I pose these questions to you ATS maybe you can answer these questions and with some kind of reasoning behind them. And to that priest that asked me not to return I hope what a dis-service you did to your religion.

Really interesting thread dude.

It's for these reasons that organised religion, not just christianity, but the whole group of judeo-abrahamic religions, just don't sit right with me.

It's the dogmatic nature, the holier than thou attitude that grinds at me.

Like why can't people appreciate the beauty of this infinite multiverse in their own way? To find true understanding and peace of mind without sticking to a set way of thinking, and having your mind made up on your behalf?

I guess really, the answer to all of your questions is basic human nature.. At a very base level. It all stems from the competitive nature of the animal within, specifically the will to control and be higher than others.

I don't doubt that most of these religions started out in the best of intentions, as a spiritual way of living to be in harmony with your fellow man and the world. But they've all become twisted and distorted shadows of their former selves...

I guess when someone says, 'I think what God meant to say...' it's time to leave the room.

Peace dude, hope you find balance.

Edit for typos...

[edit on 19/10/2009 by purehughness]

I never in my life met a single preist who did such a thing. This guy is not catholic. I'll try and answer your questions. The answers are very simple.

yet without understanding which is a grace, no answers are worthy enough.


But first pure hughness

the holier than thou attitude that grinds at me. "

You see this attitude is the exact opposite of what Christ taught. He was meek and humble of heart, the thing is alot, not all, athiest use hypocrites as a cop out to not give up sin.

If I wanted a cop out I could easily point to the hypocrites, but I don't, I know what christ truly taught.


"Like why can't people appreciate the beauty of this infinite multiverse in their own way? To find true understanding and peace of mind without sticking to a set way of thinking, and having your mind made up on your behalf? "


because it's not a set way of thinking. It's called revealed truth. God teaching his creation a revelation to mandkind. should God keep man in the dark?

no.

The fact is that if people wanted to make their own universe and see it in their own way, then what is stoping anybody from creating their own belief that fits their mind?

like the rapest club... it's my choice to see it my own way.

Or the violence is the rule of life since earth is vo,ent I see nothing but violence out of nature so therefore my beleif is that I can walk down the street and clock someone anytime I want.

Idols minds make their own faith and their own rules to fit their lifestyles. Which can lead to destruction.


Our mind sin't made up for us, it's confirmed through revelation where we come from/


Now as for the OP.




[edit on 19-10-2009 by JesusisTruth]

1) How can I be expected to put my faith in a book that was written over a millinia ago. Be written by the divine hand of God or not, it was still left in the hands of mere mortal men who are at heart corrupt.



The book wasn't written it was revealed, you either believe or you don't. If you believe God is all powerful than he will not allow his book to teach falsely

If it was left in the hands of mere mortal men, how do you know those men weren't divinely inspired? they were prophets. again the answer is simple. You either believe or you don't

God isn't gonna call every soul on earth on the phone and explain everything. He lef his life story in a book. it's the way of communication.





1b) (Asked specfically to the roman cathlioc priest) How also can I put my faith that has controlled a large portion of the world for hundreds of years, putting to death any that opposed their rule, using blackmail and extortion to aquire the land that the Vatican currently sits and using the mafia and various other illeagal means including trafficing drugs, stock manilpulation, and murder to ensure that you remain in power.



They haven't controlled anything. God has. he gave the Church that power. His bride. But hypocrites have destroyed it. We have had many antipopes in our churches history that saints themselves have removed.

They accuired power through the preaching of peter and Paul and it was made the state religion.

The drug trafficing I know nothing about, but it's insane. They are not real popes. And all popes since vatican 2 in the 60s have been freemasonic infiltrators.

which is why vatican 2 was the begginign of the end, look how the world has gotten since then. They changed the old mass into an invalid new one.

Once you remove that grace from a true communion, the culture goes downhill. Which is why this culture is so degenirate and lustfull and ruthless.

But anyways, freemasons and communist have infiltrated the vatican to make use of it, yet it still hasn't been overcome like God promised.

Because traditional catholics like myself still exist and follow pre vatican 2 teachings.

He will rebuild the church like never before. after the tribulation.





2) Why is your way of worshipping God acceptible, but not anothers. (in other words whats with the Im right your wrong mentality)



Because what Christ said.

" I am he"

" Whoever does not believe in me shall perish in their sins "

It's a statement of truth. yet God can lead anyone out of those religion into his, because he did it to me. I never used to be religious and was pagan minded and converted.

It's not a I'm right your wrong mentality, it's abelief in christ as the messiah, you can take it how you want it.

If Christ is God like he said so, is he allah? is he Bhudda? no.

He's the saviour which we believe, yet a holier then thou attitude is not what real christians have. Its a simple belief of Christ.




3) In christianity as a whole we learn about accept people, to try to live in harmony with our fellow man. Why then do you condem homosexuals. Does the bible not say "let yea without sin cast the first stone"


Because we don't condemn homosexuals. God does. We listen to God. God created the male and female, and homosexuality is a choice to mandkind. They chose the unnatural lust.

I can love a man as a friend, yet do I turn it into an unnatural burning lust?

no. it's not what God intended.


does it mean we hate homosexuals? no. so the question is irrelevant because.

" harmony with fellow man "

we can have while condemning the actions. I can live peacfully with a homosexual, but it doesn't mean I agree with him. I'll let God judge him after death.




4) Are christians not guilty of idololgy. I.E. Worshipping a statue, and also whats amounts to a death steak.

No. Because God commanded Moses to make statues and put them in the temple for a reminder in numbers and in the early OT.

God never said to worship them. And we don't


God bless you OP!!!!!!

You were an altar boy, God is trying to call you back, do not ever rebel because the understanding is dim.

God wil teach you in due time with his grace and give you understanding


peace.

reply to post by jmotley


No wonder you got the boot

I admire your courage in asking these questions. Religious leaders are not used to dealing with people that have that kind of courage.

You want the answers, you won't find them in a church. They are apostate. Pray and dig them up for yourself.

Congratulations! You just got "put out of the synagogue"!



[edit on 19-10-2009 by psusa2]

Originally posted by jmotley

1) How can I be expected to put my faith in a book that was written over a millinia ago. Be written by the divine hand of God or not, it was still left in the hands of mere mortal men who are at heart corrupt.

1b) (Asked specfically to the roman cathlioc priest) How also can I put my faith that has controlled a large portion of the world for hundreds of years, putting to death any that opposed their rule, using blackmail and extortion to aquire the land that the Vatican currently sits and using the mafia and various other illeagal means including trafficing drugs, stock manilpulation, and murder to ensure that you remain in power.

2) Why is your way of worshipping God acceptible, but not anothers. (in other words whats with the Im right your wrong mentality)

3) In christianity as a whole we learn about accept people, to try to live in harmony with our fellow man. Why then do you condem homosexuals. Does the bible not say "let yea without sin cast the first stone"

4) Are christians not guilty of idololgy. I.E. Worshipping a statue, and also whats amounts to a death steak.

Just how long had you been involved in Church before you started asking questions? Oh well.

You know, ultimately you are responsible for you. Never trust your own personal salvation to any mortal being. The truth of the matter is that you have always had the ability to go before your maker and ask such personal questions. No priest or whatever can get inside your head and heart - like God can. God knows everything about you - nothing is hidden from him.

What you really need is to have a personal relationship with him, so when your heart is troubled by such matters, he's the one who helps you figure it out. But I can promise you this much - if you really put your trust in him and give him the time of day, that he actually deserves - your questions and your state of mind will dramatically change.

God does not lie. He promised that he was never meant to be sought in vain, so if you really start seeking, you will find him. And the things needed to do, to get into a real relationship with him are so simple. He gave the teachings to Jesus and it is those words that lead to eternal life, but sometimes it all gets a bit confusing and you need a gentle guide (which your priest should have done) to set you onto the path of discovery.

Instead of trusting any of us to answer your questions, here are a few tips, for you to get the answers yourself, that you are seeking.

1. Make time each day for God. We are all busy as all get out, but each day, when you make time for yourself, whether it's over a morning cup of coffee or when you lay in bed at night and find that comfortable position, that takes you off to dream land - include him. As you go over the thoughts in your mind, your troubles of today, and the things you have to do tomorrow - include him. You do realize that if there is a God (which there is) he wants to be a part of everything about you. There are no secrets with him. Acknowledge him. In his eyes - there is noone like you and only you can fill that little place in his heart that is empty.

2. When you begin to include him sincerely, in your daily affairs, your heart will soften over time and you may find yourself pouring over the words in the Bible, or looking at a gorgeous sunset and realizing you just don't know all the answers that you would like to know and your heart may break to the point of tears. This is normal, for you are supposed to cry - to him. It's called repenting and it is "the key" to his heart.

3. Then you'll need to apply the teaching of fear of the Lord and the one from Jesus of being childlike. This should be done at nightime, as you lie in the dark. God has always, always, always done most of his greatest works under the cover of darkness, so why should his revealing of himself to the believer be any different? Things DO go bump in the night but we only fear that which we do not know and he sent Jesus, so that we may "know" him. So, as you lie in the dark it is a good thing to fear all the possibilites of that which could possibly happen to you at any given moment during the night. But when you learn to accept what may happen with a childlike expectancy - you are knocking on his door - and he will open it. There is a fine balance between fear and this childlike quality, that we all came equipped with. Use it.

4. You don't know what hour he will show up at night, so eventually, you have to pull an all-nighter. This teaching is exclusive from the Father to the Son (Jesus). If you are not a real light sleeper, you need to basically lie there with your eyes shut and just don't fall asleep, and let what happens - happen. If you are a light sleeper you should be alright.

Let him know your intent too - that you just want the truth. If you don't really want to know the truth - don't apply the teachings and just fall back to sleep. Much more is expected from those who are truly awake. Keep in mind, that there is no deceiving God's Holy Spirit. The same Spirit that gives the gift of living water can destroy and/or work havoc. You need to be prepared.

If you've read this far, you are no doubtedly wondering, 'Well, what might happen in the dark or how might he be revealed?' I'm not going to give it all away because no one did it for me. Know this though - there are precedents all throughtout the Bible for what may/can happen (that is why the Bible is so special). If you put limits on what may happen - you will be limited.

Also, I'll go ahead and remind you of the obvious, which many people on the path tend to forget. Before you meet God, you meet the Son (there is a chronological process to the "truth)." The Son is the bridegroom, yet one will herald his arrival. And before that you have to deal with Elijah.

The vast majority of people are so freaked out by Elijah, that they don't realize what he is doing is good and they take it as something evil and pray to God to make it stop and that is that. You have to remember the teachings, and that both Elijah and John are purposely sent to turn the hearts of children to their fathers and those of fathers to their children.

And remember we only fear that which we do not know.

If you read the bible, it actually talks about things like this. And possibly to your own surprise(it was to mine atleast) - it's on your side of things.

Proverbs 9

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

All you asked for was a bit of understanding. It does not say knowledge of the holy is "faith", it says it is understanding.

Psalm 111

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

You already know the answers to those questions, and you knew them before you asked them. Because if you didn't already know the answers to those questions, you wouldn't have been able to ask them.

The question is - does that make the things asked wrong because you are able to point out the fault in them? And that answer is no. No matter if Christians or however actually does those things as they are supposed to, the act and actions themselves are still either right or wrong. Thus, you are obviously perfectly capable of seeing these rights and wrongs, and that is a result of understanding you asked for, were given and didn't even know it(or pretended not to).

But I'll answer the questions and repeat what you already know anyway.

1) How can I be expected to put my faith in a book that was written over a millinia ago. Be written by the divine hand of God or not, it was still left in the hands of mere mortal men who are at heart corrupt.

Obviously you can't. The most you can do is look and see if their is understanding that can be found, or lessons etc. Can you put your faith into a movie like the "Matrix"? No, not literally. But you can see the understanding being put forward and know that is true or not.

This is why it is often said you need the "holy spirit" before you can truly start to understand the bible. Churches teach it backwards, finding understanding of that which is greater from a book, rather than finding understanding of that which is greater from seeking, and then seeing how that understanding is expressed in that book.

1b) (Asked specfically to the roman cathlioc priest) How also can I put my faith that has controlled a large portion of the world for hundreds of years, putting to death any that opposed their rule, using blackmail and extortion to aquire the land that the Vatican currently sits and using the mafia and various other illeagal means including trafficing drugs, stock manilpulation, and murder to ensure that you remain in power.

You will know them by their fruits. Check out Matthew 7. In this chapter, Jesus is directly addressing this very thing.

2) Why is your way of worshipping God acceptible, but not anothers. (in other words whats with the Im right your wrong mentality)

Because they do not truly understand. Psalm 82. They have accepted things, and thus they walk in darkness and do not understand.

3) In christianity as a whole we learn about accept people, to try to live in harmony with our fellow man. Why then do you condem homosexuals. Does the bible not say "let yea without sin cast the first stone"

If homosexuality is right or wrong is not up to men to decide, and nobody has a right to judge others for that. As far as religion and such goes, this is 100% between that person and god. However, at the same time they are completely fine and within their rights and not judging other people to think it is wrong.

Jesus also addresses this selective reading of the scripture with a hyperbole story against the pharisees. That someone is to pick and choose only certain verses like that to keep only shows that they are operating not on what they think god actually wants/said, but their own biases. Because if it was simply a matter of it being against the "word of god", then they would keep with the other ones with the same vigor, such as putting women in the barn come that time of the month, and killing disobedient children.

4) Are christians not guilty of idololgy. I.E. Worshipping a statue, and also whats amounts to a death steak.

Yes, and again you already know this. As you can see better, all you can do is do better yourself, and be thankful you are able to understand and see it.

Look to the east for guidance on how to look inside yourself for inner strength. I understand.

You know my mom was kick out of a mormon church once because she told them she was a stripper. Then again she didn't really believe in God she was trying to use them (long story). Often God works in ways we can't understand. Faith in God and Jesus as the son of God is the key to eternal life. If you don't have it you can't find God.

Nobody has a monopoly on God, and if they claim to,
then they are just wrong.

Nobody has a perfect theology, if they claim to,
then they are liars.

Do not associate yourself with arrogance.

There is no connection between the current leadership, and the Apostles. (as in a secret knowledge, or any knowledge, being passed on, from generation to generation. The real heirs of the church were driven out.) That is a myth, invented to claim authority and their, and theirs alone legitimacy.


[edit on 21-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

The book wasn't written it was revealed, you either believe or you don't. If you believe God is all powerful than he will not allow his book to teach falsely

The problem is that the bible was written. It may have been “revealed” in the beginning but it was written down (probably with the best of intentions) and its teachings were corrupted and used to control a vast majority of the world, most of it by force. I do believe, but I can not believe the way it is written now. God has allowed his book to teach falsely, Look at the crusades, the colonization of the Americas. That has lead to death and destruction. Columbus came to the new world to preaching the gospels of Christ to the “uncivilized” people. We all know what happened there. They have been fighting in the middle east for over a millennia for what. It started with the perversion of religion, Both Christianity and Islam. Thousands of people were burned at the stake or tortured is many ways for not want to follow Christ. Were the people doing this wrong, yes but they were going by what their interpretations of the bible said.

If it was left in the hands of mere mortal men, how do you know those men weren't divinely inspired? they were prophets. again the answer is simple. You either believe or you don't

And what about then men after them. According to the bible man is born into sin. The student becomes the teacher and decides he would rather leave this verse out because he does not like it. That is how it starts.

They haven't controlled anything. God has. he gave the Church that power. His bride. But hypocrites have destroyed it.

How can you say they have not controlled anything? The Vatican is in control of the church is it not? If God is all powerful how could he just let his “bride” be destroyed by hypocrites?

" Whoever does not believe in me shall perish in their sins "

It's a statement of truth. yet God can lead anyone out of those religion into his, because he did it to me. I never used to be religious and was pagan minded and converted.

But who is he. In Christianity alone you have several sects, all of which say they worship the same God. Some of which say the others our wrong. I believe in Jesus but I do not adhere to the guide lines of the catholic church or any other Christian church that I know of. So since I believe does that alone mean that I am saved.

If Christ is God like he said so, is he allah? is he Bhudda? no.

But yet both Buddha and Allah have the same teachings as Jesus. It is my belief that all are the same and that if you try to follow their teachings then you will be fine. Where everything went wrong was when man turned it into a religion from simple teachings.

Because we don't condemn homosexuals. God does. We listen to God. God created the male and female, and homosexuality is a choice to mandkind. They chose the unnatural lust.

How can you say you do not condemn homosexuals? I have seen it with my own eyes. Even the bible says it is not your job to judge. If a homosexual wants to go to church with his/her partner then they should be allowed to. If they want to get married then they should be allowed to. Your statement that it is a choice is ridiculous. Man has no choice in who they fall in love with. Do you really think that any person in their right mind would chose to be part of a group that is ridiculed and even killed on a daily basis. This is no choice. You can even look in nature and see many examples of homosexuality. en.wikipedia.org...
(And before anyone asks, no I am not homosexual. I am just a firm believer in equal rights and liberties for ALL.)

No. Because God commanded Moses to make statues and put them in the temple for a reminder in numbers and in the early OT.

God never said to worship them. And we don't

That’s funny because I was always taught to bow before a statue of Christ crucified on the cross every time I would cross from one side of the church to the next. I was taught to kneel in front of the cross when I said my prayers in church. There was a giant cross behind the priest that he would bow to and we all knelt before to receive communion. I have seen Catholics kiss the feet of Christ hanging from the cross. I have seen priest turn to a statue, and say “all hail to you Christ our lord and savior” Then bow/kiss/kneel before it. If that’s not worship then what is?

I will leave you with this.
1) The church has destroyed by money hungry hypocrites that are no more concerned for your soul then they are about mine.

2) There are a few good Christians out there.

3) Mankind needs to open its eyes and see what organized religion has done. It not only holds us back but it is the main cause of all war in the history of mankind.

reply to post by badmedia


Thank you for your answer. You are the first one that actually gave an aswer that one did not feel like you were talking down to me. and two did not include "have faith" or just believe.

reply to post by jmotley


When Christians say "Faith", they do not actually mean "faith". What they mean is blind faith and acceptance.

I have "faith" in many things. I have "faith" that the sun will rise tomorrow. Maybe it really won't, but I schedule things with faith that it will rise tommorow.

And I have faith that the understanding I've been given about things is true and so forth.

There is no reason to have blind faith, and the bible never tells anyone to have blind faith. It tells them to seek understanding, value wisdom and so forth.

Do people seek knowledge and understanding of god and the holy? Or, do they accept the religion that has been handed down to them as that?

If you check out Proverbs 8 it talks directly about those who find god earlier will be given riches. And not riches as in gold and material wealth, but instead riches of wisdom, understanding and knowledge.

And yet these people who claim to be all godly and about god are completely devoid and lacking of such things.

But the most foolish thing I ever did was reject God because of religion and religious people. I looked at the hypocrisy of the church and religion, and I completely rejected it all. I denied the existence of god, was an atheist and so forth.

And it was foolish of me because I did not realize that while on the surface it seemed as if I was rejected religion, it turns out I was actually accepting it. Even though I thought it was hogwash and dumb, I was actually still accepting it. How? Because I was allowing them to define "God" and the holy for me. I stopped allowing that to happen when I separated God and Religion. I found that god doesn't need or have any use for understanding.

If you are truly interested in finding knowledge of god and the holy, seek out the "truth", the "life" and the "way".

Look out into the world and ask - how can man live amongst each other with true happiness and peace. How would each man need to treat and act towards one another to make that happen. And then you will see the commandments, and the reason for them. The understanding of it all. And then be that change - that is the way.

As for the life - find out who and what you are. What is that makes up "you"? How can you define yourself? Can you define what is "you" without defining a posession? Your job? Your house? Your family? Your body? Your brain? Your mind? Your soul? Your consciousness? Your feeling? All possessions. What is it that is "you" and actually possessing these things? How can you expect to know that which is greater, if you can not even understand yourself? What does it mean "to be"? What is the difference between that which is observed and experienced, and that which is observing and experiencing? Is it that which is observed and experienced that is "life", or is the life that which observes and experiences?

What is truth? How can you ever really know if something is true or not? Can you ever just believe what men tell you? Can you just believe what I tell you? What if the source itself that you are believing is just mistaken? Not trying to lie to you, but is just in itself been misled? How can one just accept truth, and really know that it is true? What man can we trust? I find that even if I can trust someone to give me their honest opinion, I can not trust that their honest opinion is true/truth. And yet, how do you know that 1+1=2 is true? Can you see the difference between acceptance(blind faith) and understanding?

Seek these kinds of things out. Ask questions. Question everything, even the very nature of reality itself. Then when you come to understand them on your own, the bible will suddenly pop out and make alot more sense. Verses you read before and thought "wth is this talking about" suddenly will have a very deep and personal meaning to you.

The church will tell you instead to seek "Jesus", and his idol as you pointed out in your questions. But lets take a good look at that verse.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Notice how he defines himself in that verse? So when you seek "Jesus", you do not seek the idol, you seek those things. And it is by seeking those things that one will come unto the father.

How does one seek? By asking questions and "seeking" the answers. Ask those questions, they are their for a reason. Don't let an idol and book become a replacement for the real thing, if you accept it or not.

From John 14 again:

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

See that?

1. Appears to contridict verse 6. But it doesn't if you realize it is by those things I mention that Jesus is talking about. As it is understanding, it is available to anyone who seeks it, regardless of race, culture, class and so forth.

2. It doesn't say anything about being given a book or religion.

John 14 describes my experience and what happened to me that gave me understanding. There is more to it than what I quoted, but that is the basics of it. I was distraught with how the world was, I could see the evil and so forth. And so I just on my own started to seek out these things and try to understand etc. I didn't even realize the bible said such things, but I realize in hindsight that it is exactly those things that I was seeking. John 14:20 goes along with the life part of the 3 things, I didn't mention it. That was the verse that got me to look at the bible again at all. Because it was such a profound truth.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

While I can point out answers to things in the bible, the true answers do not come from the bible itself, from any man - myself included, or any religion. You have to seek the understanding on your own. But again, I find that once you have understanding, then the bible makes sense - and parts of it you will know are not true as well as far as being "good" and "right". I'll give the hint that Jesus is 100% telling the truth - if you can hear(understand) him. Anyone can listen and repeat his words(repeat 1+1=2), but only those with understanding can actually hear him.

You really expected the Catholic institution to answer your questions? And institution that has unforseen wealth, that lays down law on countries that are absolutely starving?


BTW, I knew a guy who was studying to be a roman catholic priest...at the vatican. Asked the same questions, got kicked out.

Now he runs his own Pagan Coven and sanctuary for pagans.

reply to post by nixie_nox


That's sad and funny at the same time.

That Catholic clergy are a weird bunch, a Priest burned a Catholic bible that was sponsored and signed by the regional Catholic Bishop right in front of my grandmother, when she looked up something and asked him a question on it. They don't like questions, because they can't answer them.

They do not respect the bible at all.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33



One of my favorite sites is postsecret.com. Where they post anonymous secrets every week from the sad, happy, love to disturbing and bizarre.

One of the ones that realy stood out in my mind was a picture of a priest's collar and a note somewhat to the effect of: when I meet other priests, I look for signs that they are in on the sham too.

Well I gotta say I am proud of you. Not for defiance but for questioning. Seek your own truth. I was never kicked out but I left the Catholic church because they could never answer anything...even if I asked them with the calmest of tones I was being rude...oh well

-Kyo

My friend told me this story.
She was raised catholic, and was in the church talk to the priest. All of a sudden she stopped what she was saying and told him to be careful over in that area of the church (pointing to one of the corners), that the roof was going to collapse.
well, a few days latter, it collasped where she said it would.
well, the priest didn't seem to sound that grateful. They wanted to do an exorcism on her and when she refused, she was asked not to come back.
which she didn't go back!

Another friend was informed he didn't dress good enough, and was asked to do something about that. well, he was working where I was, and quite frankly to expect the guy to invest in better clothing was a little uncalled for...he hasn't gone back.

me, I overheard two women talking in the church...."well if he doesn't want her here, she shouldn't be here."
well, they weren't talking about me, but pretty much described my situation at the time to a tee. my husband didn't want me there, he wanted me home, catering to him.
it told me something else also though, that these people seemed to believe that the husband had the right to stand in between a women and her god...
I didn't need those people as spiritual advisers. I never went back!!!

maybe christians should take better care of bridling their tongue, or at least ask their God before they speak, bacause well, sometimes they seem to more damage than good!

Originally posted by jmotley

1) How can I be expected to put my faith in a book that was written over a millinia ago. Be written by the divine hand of God or not, it was still left in the hands of mere mortal men who are at heart corrupt.

1b) (Asked specfically to the roman cathlioc priest) How also can I put my faith that has controlled a large portion of the world for hundreds of years, putting to death any that opposed their rule, using blackmail and extortion to aquire the land that the Vatican currently sits and using the mafia and various other illeagal means including trafficing drugs, stock manilpulation, and murder to ensure that you remain in power.

2) Why is your way of worshipping God acceptible, but not anothers. (in other words whats with the Im right your wrong mentality)

3) In christianity as a whole we learn about accept people, to try to live in harmony with our fellow man. Why then do you condem homosexuals. Does the bible not say "let yea without sin cast the first stone"

4) Are christians not guilty of idololgy. I.E. Worshipping a statue, and also whats amounts to a death steak.

1) Where are you ever asked to put a saving faith into the Bible (Scriptures)? Who ever taught you that is ignorant. If you're called by God to be saved the Scriptures then pose no issue for you nor will you need any "faith" to read and grasp His message to you.

1b) You're never asked to place your faith into a church either. Again who ever taught you that is ignorant. No one just decides one day, "Ya know, I think I am going to get saved today!" of their own accord but rather they are called or drawn to God by the Holy Spirit.

There is no word "church" in Scripture. Church for early believers was the "body of believers" in Christ who were called out from the world. These believers were and are the "church". Church is wherever 2 or more gather in Jesus' name.

2) Truth is Absolute. There can only be one Truth. So if a Muslim claims to have the Truth, a Mormon claims to have Truth and then an atheist claims to have Truth is it possible for them to all be Absolutely True? Truth by its very definition is exclusive, it's not all inclusive.

If you deny that Truth is Absolute you have then confirmed it.

3) This type of reasoning will get you in trouble. You have decided to use Scripture as a proof in your argument. This though opens up ALL of Scripture and it refutes your argument when taken as a whole.

The passage you speak of was spoken by Christ when religious rulers sought to stone a woman for adultery because they stated that the Law required this of a woman caught in the very act of such deed. What they left out was that both guilty parties were to be stoned to death so if they caught this women in the "very act" why would they leave out the man? They did this to try and trick Jesus. It does not mean we are to never judge someone as being wrong or in sin.

4) No, Christians are not guilty of idol worship. If you're speaking of having Jesus on a cross, or having a statue of Mary or Jesus in the church it does not mean they worship those statues. While I do not agree with those images we can't categorically lump all Christians in as idol worshipers.

In regards to a "death steak"? One who chokes and dies while eating a steak?

Or did you mean "death stake"? Such as a crucifixion?

Originally posted by jmotley

1) How can I be expected to put my faith in a book that was written over a millinia (sic millennium) ago. Be written by the divine hand of God or not, it was still left in the hands of mere mortal men who are at heart corrupt.



3) In christianity as a whole we learn about accept people, to try to live in harmony with our fellow man. Why then do you condem homosexuals. Does the bible not say "let yea without sin cast the first stone"

4) Are christians not guilty of idololgy. idolatry I.E. Worshipping a statue, and also whats amounts to a death steak. (stake)

Must. Resist. Urge, to correct spelling and grammar..
Instead I will content myself with factual errors... Contrary to what was claimed with incredible anger and force by an atheist I debated in 2007, no one worships the cross!