14 Art Students with Construction Passes were in WTC before attacks

I think that some of you are digging into the subject way too much. I am going to ask some very-very serious questions, and I do not mean any offense through asking. Please take my questions with the up most seriousness and respect.

(1) Does anyone think that the government is reading your thought?
(2) Does anyone think that the government is controlling your actions?
(3) Does anyone think they are being followed by the government?

Please take these questions seriously. I do.

This has everything to to with the topic.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Pathos]

Let us not forget.

The guy in the original post, who did the interview, claims he has photo's that *ARE NOT ON THE NET*

So the photo's we are looking at might not be the photo's he is talking about.

The real question here is when is he gonna get those photo's online?


EDIT: Just to add, he also mentioned that 4 of these so called "Art Students" that were involved with this, were detained as part of the larger investigation into Mossad Art Students. I want to see the proof of that, if it is true then there is a direct connection because someone in the FBI saw some sort of connection. I think those key points got lost in the discussion.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by talisman]

Originally posted by Pathos
I think that some of you are digging into the subject way too much. I am going to ask some very-very serious questions, and I do not mean any offense through asking. Please take my questions with the up most seriousness and respect.

(1) Does anyone think that the government is reading your thought?
(2) Does anyone think that the government is controlling your actions?
(3) Does anyone think they are being followed by the government?

Please take these questions seriously. I do.

This has everything to to with the topic.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Pathos]

Absolutely.

1.Yes, and I hope they learn something.
2.Yes, but that is the fun part, you slip in a diversion every now and then to send them off track for a moment. Can't get ALL their ducks in a row to complete their task.
3.Sure, wild goose chases are the best. If you think about it, if they are following YOU, who is leading who around by the nose!!!!

I know sarcasm is not what you were looking for, but if we constantly "fear" what "they" are doing or will do, we lost control a long time ago. So it's best to educate yourself, forget looking over your shoulder, and carry on and if you can wake a few of them up in the process, good.

Oh and the "reason" the government monitors these sites is for the "slide" response, see how many people know what's going on and how they gather and spread their information, quite simple really.

Shame the Mossad are so inept at understanding humanity and their place in it. Zionism, what a crock, "we are the chosen ones".

Protocols: A Chapter from the Controversy of Zion
To bring about this state of affairs compliant politicians are needed, and of them the Protocols say:
"The administrators whom we shall choose from among the public, with strict regard to their capacities for servile obedience, will not be persons trained in the arts of government, and will therefore easily become pawns in our game in the hands of men of learning and genius who will be their advisers, specialists bred and reared from early childhood to rule the affairs of the whole world".
=======================
THE PROTOCOLS
While zionism thus took shape in the Eastern ghettoes during the last century [19th] and at the start of this one emerged as a new force in international affairs (when the British Government offered it Uganda), the world revolution, in those same Talmudic areas, prepared its third "eruption". The two forces moved forward together in synchronization (for Zionism, as has been shown, used the threat of Communism in Europe to gain the ear of European rulers for its territorial demand outside Europe).
It was as if twin turbines began to revolve, generating what was in effect "one" force, from which the new century was to receive galvanic shocks.
According to Disraeli and Bakunin the world revolution had come under Jewish leadership around the middle of the century [mid-1800s], and its aims then changed. Bakunin's followers, who sought to abolish the State as such because they foresaw that the revolutionary State might become more despotic than any earlier despotism, were ousted and forgotten.
The world revolution therefore took the shape of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto, which aimed at the super-State founded in slave labour and in "the confiscation of human liberty" (as deTocqueville wrote in 1848).
This change in leadership and aims determined the course of the 20th Century. However, the methods whereby the existing order was to be destroyed did not change; they continued to be those revealed by Weishaupt's papers published in 1787. Many publications of the 19th Century showed that the original Illuminati plans continued through the generations to be the textbook of the revolutionaries of all camps as to method.
These works propagated the destructive plans in various ways; sometimes allegorical, but always recognizable if compared with the original -- Weishaupt's documents.
In 1859 Cretineau Joly assailed Jewish Leadership of "the secret societies". His book reproduced documents communicated to him by Pope Gregory XVII of the Italian secret society, the Haute Vente Romaine. Their authenticity is beyond question. The Haute Vente Romaine was headed by an Italian prince who had been initiated by one of Weishaupt's own intimates (Knigge) and was a reincarnation of the Illuminati.
The outer circle of initiates -- the dupes -- were persuaded that "the object of the association is something high and noble, that it is the Order of those who desire a purer morality and a stronger piety, the independence and unity of their country". Those who graduated into the inner degrees progressively learned the real aims and swore to destroy all religion and legitimate government. Then they received the secrets of assassination, poison and perjury first disclosed by Weishaupt's documents.
In 1862 Karl Marx (whose Communist Manifesto is recognizably Illuminist) founded his first International, and Bakunin founded his Alliance Sociale Democratique (the program as Mrs. Nesta Webster has shown by quoting correlative passages, was Illuminism undiluted). In the same year Maurice Joly published an attack on Napoleon III, to whom he attributed the identical methods of corrupting and ruining the social system. (This book was written in allegorical form.)
In 1868 the German Goedsche reproduced the same ideas in the form of an attack on Jewish leadership of the revolution, and in 1869 the French Catholic and Royalist Gougenot Des Mousseaux took up the same theme. In that year Bakunin also published his Polemic Against The Jews.
In all these works, in one form or another, the continuity of the basic idea first revealed by Weishaupt's documents appears: namely, that of destroying all legitimate government, religion and nationhood and setting up a universal despotism to rule the enslaved masses by terror and violence. Some of those assailed the Jewish usurpation of, or succession to the leadership of the revolution.

Originally posted by talisman
Just to add, he also mentioned that 4 of these so called "Art Students" that were involved with this, were detained as part of the larger investigation into Mossad Art Students. I want to see the proof of that, if it is true then there is a direct connection because someone in the FBI saw some sort of connection. I think those key points got lost in the discussion.

The connection is, they were art students, and it is already known to the FBI that Israeli art students have been trying to infiltrate various US Governmental bodies. The fact that they were questioned relative to this is no indication of their involvement, I believe innocent until proven guilty comes into play here, and these guys are walking around free today carrying on their arty lives.

The questioning alone is proof of nothing, innocent people fitting profiles of crimes are questioned all the time, it doesn't mean they have to be involved some how.

Originally posted by talisman
I think those key points got lost in the discussion.

I think a great deal more has been lost in this discussion, the ability to be objective and look at the evidence presented is just one of them.

The amount of flags and stars this thread has garnered is beyond belief, it only goes to show just how many people look no further than the initial post.

Ignorance is truly rife here at ATS


[edit on 12-10-2009 by Koka]

Greetings,

I am blindly posting this information. Please forgive me if it's redundant material:

This is the art students website, as this group had been renting space there since 1997:

wtc.window.to...

One of the artists, I believe died on 911. (i will try to find a source)

okay...here, the lower Manhattan cultural council used the 91 and 92 floor in WTC 1, as part of their residency program (World Views program) from 1997 to 2001.

Several artists worked on these floors, among them the 4 Austrians who constructed a wooden balcony.

Only these 4 people were involved in the balcony stunt:

Ari Janka, Born 1970, Artist
Wolfgang Gantner, Born 1970, Political science
Florian Reither, Born 1970 Engineer
Tobias Urban. Born 1968 Artist


The artist who died was Michael Richards who was working in his studio on the morning of September 11.

www.lmcc.net...

Regards,

Dr. P

Artists are NOT art students. The four men who are members of Gelatin (now called "Gelitin") and who carried out a stunt in Tower 1 in 2000 are performance artists (notice I said "are" - they are well-known in Austria and Germany and have toured the USA and Mexico). They never were "art students" and must not be confused with the Israeli art students arrested by the FBI around the time of 9/11. Once this conflation is removed, the significance of the Gelatin performers and what they did at the WTC loses its significance, for there is nothing suspicious about their behaviour once you know the crazy things these guys did and still do.

As far as I am concerned, the story is a complete red herring - a cul-de-sac down which some 9/11 truthers looking for yet another smoking gun (don't we have enough yet?) will trudge until they find - like me - that it leads them nowhere.

Here's Wolfgang, the leader of the pack of Gelitin artists who damaged Tower 1 for the cause of Art:
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by Blundo

Wow tons of good info about the attacks on 9/11. Now all that im wondering now is will a MSM group jump on this?

Nothing on www.coreofcorruption.com... yet, but soon there will be pictures of 4 suspects and there adventure at the WTC and with the help of ATS im pretty sure we can pull out a few names.

well, my daughterwas getting her degrees in structural engineering and she also went through the towers as part of her studies... so to me I see nothing unusual about it..... people were doing it for years before 911...

Koka

The connection is, they were art students

So the question is this. (according to the person being interviewd)

Why was the FBI suspicious of these "Art Students?"
It isn't enough to simply say they were "Art Students" therefore the FBI was suspicious.

If it was simply because they were "Art Students" then we should've seen a mass arrest of "Art Students" like never before!

I believe innocent until proven guilty comes into play here

But one can hold "suspicions" against someone that are justified. I mean, O.J Simpson was proven innocent, I think we can be justified in to thinking he is guilty.

and these guys are walking around free today carrying on their arty lives.

Personally, I don't know that. That might be what someone says, but I don't know that. It could be like you said, that this is the case, but I think we need to turn over a few stones. Again, not saying it isn't, but I think we need a few questions answered and a few stones turned over.

The questioning alone is proof of nothing, innocent people fitting profiles of crimes are questioned all the time, it doesn't mean they have to be involved some how.

Yes this is true. However, this case is unique. Remember, any connection between Israel and 9/11 is classified. Already, we are working at a very compromised position. Creating such a vacuum then is the real cause for some of this.

I also think that if there is nothing to hide, then let us look at the connections between Israel and 9/11 that are classified. Then maybe we can see if there is any connections to these "Art Students."







[edit on 12-10-2009 by talisman]

Originally posted by micpsi
Here's Wolfgang, the leader of the pack of Gelitin artists who damaged Tower 1 for the cause of Art:
www.youtube.com...

Right, and to my eye he is an actor.

Originally posted by micpsi
Artists are NOT art students. The four men who are members of Gelatin (now called "Gelitin") and who carried out a stunt in Tower 1 in 2000 are performance artists (notice I said "are" - they are well-known in Austria and Germany and have toured the USA and Mexico). They never were "art students" and must not be confused with the Israeli art students arrested by the FBI around the time of 9/11. Once this conflation is removed, the significance of the Gelatin performers and what they did at the WTC loses its significance, for there is nothing suspicious about their behaviour once you know the crazy things these guys did and still do.

As far as I am concerned, the story is a complete red herring - a cul-de-sac down which some 9/11 truthers looking for yet another smoking gun (don't we have enough yet?) will trudge until they find - like me - that it leads them nowhere.

But according to the person who started this, 4 of them were arrested or detained with the other Israeli students who were arrested and he will be releasing photo's that are *NOT* online. That is his claim, so I am interested in seeing what comes out of this.

IF nothing, then so be it.

We can file this one away as Question #X for the REAL investigation.Always helps to have some easy ones on the agenda,helps to move things along.

BTW this sculpture woulda taken about an hour to design and the rest of the day to make if you can order the I beams cut(costs about $20/cut)Another day to pull the window and voila,you have HOW MUCH TIME LEFT OVER???Then I wonder,did these folks have access to the machine shops I heard mention of in the descriptions of the bombs going off before the plane/drones hit and blew over a huge press?In the basements?

Additionally,in the picture of the two looking out,there are boxes on their sides,like to block view,looking empty,as the bottoms are faceted like partly relieved of pressure.And the guy is apparently elbowing some of the same,yet obviously not empty.Also note the no cutting pictogram.Anyone able to read the writing on the boxes?It MIGHT say,"MILITARY GRADE NANO THERMATE"HAHA

PS NO way anyone signed off on a dingbat platform like this for liability sake!Who paid the fine then,oh wait 9/11,I keep forgetting,no fine,no firings,no resistance,etc

[edit on 12-10-2009 by trueforger]

Too bad thier "money shot" of the balcony from the helicopter, looks 100% fake!

They coulda spent less than 1000$ for a telephoto lense and gotten a "real" picture, instead of the ONE picture they took from a rented heli that cost them 1600$+....Again that one picture looks very fake, too far away.

So much for the "B-plan"

But that was all just a front anyway.

Just look at the 20 pictures on the 1 site (link01,link02,link03 ect....) seems to be down for me right now, oddly enough so I can't link it.

20 pictures, and all of them have some really messed up thoughts and strange images in them many which have nothing to do with trying to put a 2 foot balcony out of a single window of the WTC.

B-plan= Bomb Plan??? Come on I wasn't the only one thinking it.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Nola213]

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Nola213]

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Nola213]

Originally posted by Pathos
I think that some of you are digging into the subject way too much. I am going to ask some very-very serious questions, and I do not mean any offense through asking. Please take my questions with the up most seriousness and respect.

(1) Does anyone think that the government is reading your thought?

No.

(2) Does anyone think that the government is controlling your actions?

No.

(3) Does anyone think they are being followed by the government?

No.


Not that they won't follow/harass political dissidents, because they are certainly known to do that. John Lennon is one famous example. But I am not John Lennon.

Please take these questions seriously. I do.

This has everything to to with the topic.

I think your questions have more to do with your total inability to understand our distrust in the government. I personally cannot understand why YOU trust them so much in the first place, given so much history and so many cases of total neglect and abuses of power. I really think you are being extremely naive when you think of your leaders and what they are really trying to accomplish today. Political rhetoric is rhetoric for a reason, politics means "many ticks," ie blood-sucking parasites, for a reason. Not because they are all nice and love you and only look for the best. Please. Corruption and crookedness rule today. That is why we want transparency and a real investigation in light of so many things indicating foul play and involvement/foreknowledge on the part of non-Arabic intelligence agencies, from the FBI and CIA, to the Mossad, to the ISI.


I have a very serious question for you, as well:

If you were in 1930's/1940's Germany, do you think you would be able to transcend all the political rhetoric of the day to see what was really happening, as it happened? Do you think you would mentally be strong enough to go against the grain and call a duck a duck? If so, what specifically makes you feel as though you would be so bright?

[edit on 12-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by talisman
But according to the person who started this, 4 of them were arrested or detained with the other Israeli students who were arrested and he will be releasing photo's that are *NOT* online. That is his claim, so I am interested in seeing what comes out of this.

IF nothing, then so be it.

I've listened to this interview many times now, but at no point does he say that they were detained with the other Israeli students, this is a connection you seem to be making based, I assume, on him saying they were detained as a part of the Israeli spy ring, a connection that he has yet to verify or supply evidence of.

He also makes claim to them being in the towers just before 911, I assume he will give us additional evidence that puts them in the building closer than sixteen months prior to 911?

I also can't wait to hear what he has to say about the 3 to 4 tons/tonnes of boxes they had with them.

I will wait on this additional information he has promised, as yet nothing additional has been posted on his website.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Koka]

Originally posted by bsbray11
I think your questions have more to do with your total inability to understand our distrust in the government. I personally cannot understand why YOU trust them so much in the first place, given so much history and so many cases of total neglect and abuses of power. I really think you are being extremely naive when you think of your leaders and what they are really trying to accomplish today.

Here is the flaw in your response. According to your analysis of what I have said, my position is of someone who is taking the side of the government. Since I disagree with the initial thread paradigm, you have automatically placed me into a particular category.

Newsflash: I don't trust anyone. Before I believe anything I read online or in a newspaper, I have to question where the information is coming from. People around "Above Top Secret" carry a banner that says "Deny Ignorance", but they sure have a misunderstanding of what that means. I have seen that statement fall weigh-side several times.

If you and others like you are truly in search for truth, the first step towards shacking off ignorance is to 'question everything'. Real conspiracy theorists keep their feet on solid ground. Everything is questioned. They are never lead by others.

After reading over this thread and several like it, I can honestly say that most of your are followers. You are being lead down a rabbit hole, which has no destination or rational revelation. According to several of these thread starters and followers, the 'only explanation is a government conspiracy'. Even though all sense of reality says the opposite, each one of you fall into place one lock step after another. No one ever stops and questions the realistic nature of a story.

Once your theories are questioned by realists, you guys quickly call them 'disinformation officers' or government supporters. Real logic cannot be applied to 'anything' that is posted on this site, for it changes the narrative everyone is trying to put into place. Anything that puts these theories on solid ground is dismissed. I wonder why.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I have a very serious question for you, as well:

If you were in 1930's/1940's Germany, do you think you would be able to transcend all the political rhetoric of the day to see what was really happening, as it happened? Do you think you would mentally be strong enough to go against the grain and call a duck a duck? If so, what specifically makes you feel as though you would be so bright?

I am realistic and rational. I keep my feet solidly on the ground, and I question everything that hits my plate. I don't trust the source of anything I read; thus, I question the logic behind an article's intent. Before I start blaming any one specific group of individuals, I question the rationality of what is being preached.

When it comes to conspiracy theories, I never-ever trust anyone on both sides of the fence. I question it all.

That's why some of us are different than you. We are not being lead.

"Trust No One"

Originally posted by Pathos
Here is the flaw in your response. According to your analysis of what I have said, my position is of someone who is taking the side of the government. Since I disagree with the initial thread paradigm, you have automatically placed me into a particular category.

You placed yourself in the only "category" I have noticed. You don't have to 'take the side of the government', you just have to be naive to just how corrupt it really has become, which they are obviously not going to tell you themselves, so it requires personal responsibility and vigilance, and demanding transparency on the part of citizens.

Newsflash: I don't trust anyone.

You obviously must trust someone to have faith that al Qaeda was behind 9/11.

If you and others like you are truly in search for truth, the first step towards shacking off ignorance is to 'question everything'. Real conspiracy theorists keep their feet on solid ground. Everything is questioned. They are never lead by others.

Who or what here is leading me? And for the love of god don't say "truth movement" which I never expressed any sentiment in "joining."

Once your theories are questioned by realists, you guys quickly call them 'disinformation officers' or government supporters.

Link me to one post where I have dismissed anything anyone has said simply by calling them a name, or especially a single instance of me calling someone a disinfo agent. If you think that is me, then you don't know me. What you are doing during this part of your post is generalizing and ranting, with no feet on the ground.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I have a very serious question for you, as well:

If you were in 1930's/1940's Germany, do you think you would be able to transcend all the political rhetoric of the day to see what was really happening, as it happened? Do you think you would mentally be strong enough to go against the grain and call a duck a duck? If so, what specifically makes you feel as though you would be so bright?

I am realistic and rational. I keep my feet solidly on the ground, and I question everything that hits my plate. I don't trust the source of anything I read; thus, I question the logic behind an article's intent. Before I start blaming any one specific group of individuals, I question the rationality of what is being preached.

When it comes to conspiracy theories, I never-ever trust anyone on both sides of the fence. I question it all.

That's why some of us are different than you. We are not being lead.

I notice you didn't answer my question.

If you question it all, then you wouldn't mind posting here all the solid evidence that led you to your opinions on the 9/11 attacks? So I can share with you the questions that I have personally, and we will see who has faith in what.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by Koka


When I say "with the other Israeli's" I basically am refering to the arrest along with the 200 or so "agents"

I don't mind throwing caution to the wind, and let us wait and see what comes out of this. I do think there is something strange there though.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


Because the US government wasn't listening. Other nations I think including Israel tried to warn them They did the organizational equivilant to "Na na na not listening!".

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Because the US government wasn't listening. Other nations I think including Israel tried to warn them They did the organizational equivilant to "Na na na not listening!".

Not only that, but according to Sibel Edmonds' case, her FBI supervisors were intentionally distracting agents in the field from pursuing valuable leads in forewarnings of 9/11. A case which has never made it to court for "national security" reasons cited by John Ashcroft himself.

What I want to know is not only why this distraction took place within the FBI, but what the supervisors in question must have known or been told in order to go to such lengths to prevent the forewarnings from being properly investigated. Follow this back up the chain of command and you will begin to produce some relevant names here very quickly, at least for gross, criminal neglect and/or aiding/abetting terrorism.