Michel Moore gets destroyed in a debate about capitalism

reply to post by really


"You know what I love most about people like you, Donny. You'll make a remark like, "Communism and Socialism are the same thing," not back it up at all and then when someone says that you are wrong ask for sources. You're lazy. "


I reply
You may REALLY have something here sonny.
Why should I work for what I have already lived.
You on the other hand need the research.
You see your inability to consolidate instead of separate verbiage is reserved for the young and impressionable. Your thinking is Marxist. Like Depac Chopra ---they convince you that there is an empty space in your gray matter and then they stuff it with whatever they want and then watch you dance to their music.

If socialism equals communism than　does capitalism equal fascism?

Must everything be so extreme? Are no middle grounds possible?

And while we are on the topic of these two extremes, functionally and phenomenologically, is there any substantive differences? In both cases you have misery and war, a few highly-placed leaders lording it over a much poorer general population, lots of standing around in line waiting for basic staples like bread, and a crackdown on freedom of expression.

Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Whether the state "merges" with corporate power (fascism) or somehow becomes its source (communism), the results are not pretty in either case.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4e45f005510e.jpg[/atsimg]

I'd like to know why so many people think Capitalism is the only system under which people can make money. Capitalism didn't buy tickets to MM's movies--people did.

Artists thrived under pure Fuedalism.

A good artist will always be paid and celebrated. And there's no reason any exceptional person can't get paid under any political system

There's a guy--I'm not calling any names but to me he's the Forrest Gump of ATS--who in a depression where tens of millions of people can't find work--is talking about jailing people who can't find work.

This guy just don't have a clue. I'd like to see him get around a bunch of construction workers and talk that sillyness.

There has never been a hint of full employment under Capitalism and there never will be. There was never jobs for everybody who wanted one...never.

We have PhD's out here now who will gladly take a job at Mcdonalds just to have some kind of income.

The only system under which there could ever be full employment is Communism and then you'd have to fiddle with the hours.

I believe everybody should work too. And everybody would work--especially if it comes down to work or eat.

But who says it takes 8 hours to get the job done?
Who says you can't work four people 2 hours instead of one person 8 hours to get the job done?

People don't want real solutions, they just want to hold on to their pet prejiduces even when it becomes silly.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by really

 

"You know what I love most about people like you, Donny. You'll make a remark like, "Communism and Socialism are the same thing," not back it up at all and then when someone says that you are wrong ask for sources. You're lazy. "


I reply
You may REALLY have something here sonny.
Why should I work for what I have already lived.
You on the other hand need the research.
You see your inability to consolidate instead of separate verbiage is reserved for the young and impressionable. Your thinking is Marxist. Like Depac Chopra ---they convince you that there is an empty space in your gray matter and then they stuff it with whatever they want and then watch you dance to their music.

My thinking is Marxist? Because, I read and use a dictionary? Then, so be it. I guess Webster (as in the dictionary) is Marxist, too. You've lived under Marxism? Wow! Fantastic. I actually am surrounded by people in my neighborhood who have. Maybe you know them. We're all Marxist.
Excellent. Deepak Chopra!!! Awesome - that was great.
Good luck to you.

I don't know if I can be helpful but I will take a shot.
Most artists are seldom recognized until after they die. Picasso is the main exception.MM is not an artist.
Prior to capitalism there was no employment. It was barter and trade.
A portion of your prosperity was provided to the chief, king, lord or what have you, If you or your family did not work you perished, Those were tribal and futile days.
Some dude a couple thousand years ago invented money and started a bank. The biblical " root of all evil." Karl Marx will try to persuade you into the necessity of this revolving aspect of humanity. Don't believe him.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

I don't know if I can be helpful but I will take a shot.
Most artists are seldom recognized until after they die. Picasso is the main exception.MM is not an artist.
Prior to capitalism there was no employment. It was barter and trade.
A portion of your prosperity was provided to the chief, king, lord or what have you, If you or your family did not work you perished, Those were tribal and futile days.
Some dude a couple thousand years ago invented money and started a bank. The biblical " root of all evil." Karl Marx will try to persuade you into the necessity of this revolving aspect of humanity. Don't believe him.

People were employed before the term or ideology of capitalism was ever created. Currency was created millennia ago so not everything was barter and trade. You can also be gainfully employed for goods.
As for feudalism, in terms of taxation, people paid less in taxes than we do now in the US. However, politically you were screwed unless you lived under a benevolent lord. As a serf, you had no rights.

reply to post by really

Come on real,
You do see where I said---
a couple thousand years ago. ( money)
your just young and Anxious.
You will do well grasshopper.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by really

 

Come on real,
You do see where I said---
a couple thousand years ago. ( money)
your just young and Anxious.
You will do well grasshopper.

HAHAHAHA!!! Thank you, sensei. I appreciate that. Have a great night.

Hi, I have read some parts of this thread and just feel I need to add some comments.

First, re "socialism".
Why is there so much fear of "socialism" in the US? I live in Europe. Have any of you ever been here and seen how we live? I can walk the streets at night and not worry if I will get shot (either by thugs or the police) or mugged. I can get hurt or sick and go to a doctor or hospital, and I receive medical treatment whether I have or don't have a job and/or money. This is so regardless of whether a left-wing or right-wing party is in power. I really think I live a lot better than many of you do, however much your propaganda may tell you otherwise...

Secondly, re another favorite theme: less power to the state.
You all want less power to the state? Are you all anarchists, then? Come on... The idea of a state is not that bad at all. The problem (everywhere, not only in the US) is not the state, but the guys running it. A strong state in good hands is good for everyone. A strong state in bad hands is good for a select few. Guess which both you and I are saddled up with???

Finally, take a look at this.
www.guardian.co.uk...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f4b5d6f539fd.jpg[/atsimg]

Hmmmm.. I see hypocrisy all over this thread.

So for majority of those that choose to call Michael Moore a hypocrite in this thread you should really have a look at yourself. As i am sure that given the opportunity to be in his position financially all of you would say "yes" and more then likely "some" of you have investments (or did) or own a business which raises your capital therefore making you a capitalist yourself. I am. Which "unfortunately" you have to be to get along in life comfortably in these times.

People are often afraid of change. When people are afraid they often don't have the ability to make evaluations on an issue from a definite neutral perspective. You have to be able to weigh the risks and benefits of any given situation.

The US has reached a point of total control by the progressive capitalists. This is where capitalism begins to break down. It's not that capitalism can't work if conducted in a just and free manner. What we have here is half freedom.

What MM was advocating may sound socialist to some people but with the overwhelming takeover and looting of the US treasury something is going to have to be done. We don't have enough money to continue down the current path. I hear a lot of bashing about single payer insurance to multiple other issues but what choices do we really have right now?

My point is change can suck but it doesn't have to be scary and sinister. We can still have a bit of socialism and still feel like free people. The main issue is the ones in office who draft our free social democracy are still the ones with the progressive capitalist mentality who want to control the masses and horde wealth. Because of this reality, it's very likely any social change with our current leaders will continue to consolidate power to the few corporate elite..


[edit on 14-10-2009 by libertytoall]

This is typical Marxist thinking.
It allows the powers that are to manipulate you right out of your future and freedom.
Show us where socialism has worked in the Western world.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

It allows the powers that are to manipulate you right out of your future and freedom.
Show us where socialism has worked in the Western world.

Socialism has worked in Sweden, Finland and Norway. These countries have some of the best standards of living in the entire world.

reply to post by corrector


It goes back to the propaganda that came around the same time as what we call the red scare. People believed that capitalism was some sort of god approved system.. It's complicated..

As for you walking out at night safe from being shot? Yeah, I do that too. Pretty regularly. So I don't see your point in that.

Originally posted by really

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

It allows the powers that are to manipulate you right out of your future and freedom.
Show us where socialism has worked in the Western world.

Socialism has worked in Sweden, Finland and Norway.

These countries have some negatives here really, how are your eyes and teeth? I'll just do sweeden a little first.
There are many --I chose a few.
Bare in mind also that the populations of the countries you mention have little to no multi-culturism.

www.lewrockwell.com...
Sweden and the Myth of Benevolent
by David Dieteman

Second, it must be noted that the touted stories of Swedish socialism, if not generally false, omit important facts.

With respect to claim that Swedish socialism shows the "success" of socialism, as O’Rourke notes, free trade reigned in Sweden from roughly 1846 until the Social Democrats were elected in 1932. After 1932, Sweden was helped by its neutrality in World War Two. Unlike Germany, Sweden’s major cities were not bombed flat. The Social Democrats, then, had a great deal of wealth produced by capitalism and undamaged by war to share as political spoils.

Worst of all, the Swedes have not always acted benevolently, as reported on page A1 of the August 29, 1997, Washington Post,

From 1934 to 1974, 62,000 Swedes were sterilized as part of a national program grounded in the science of racial biology and carried out by officials who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state...In some cases, couples judged to be inferior parents were sterilized, as were their children when they became teenagers.
Socialism
One woman, aged 72 at the time of the Post article, was sterilized "because she couldn’t read a blackboard because she did not have eyeglasses and was deemed to be retarded."

The Irish Times of August 30, 1997, meanwhile, reports that "90 per cent of [those sterilizied] were women," and that "the practice, which predated and outlived Nazi Germany, started as an attempt to weed out perceived genetic weaknesses, mental or physical defectsand ended as a method of social control." According to Professor Gunnar Broberg, "Young girls were told they would be set free from [mental] homes and prisons ‘if we are allowed to make you calmer.’"

Sweden also "forced hundreds of ‘mentally deficient’ Swedes to let their teeth rot after being force-fed candy in dental experiments."
me of the best standards of living in the entire world.

reply to post by libertytoall


This is not true. What you are talking about is pure Marxist thinking.
People were duped into your way of thinking back in Germany WW 1
Also in Russia with the Bolsheviks.
I dare you to explain the repercussions of that thinking.
Marxists are just again on the move.
The people who established America came here to escape those tyrants.
The bad guys have just caught up to take what the Americans have created.
It is all a rigged game and you and I are just the pawns.
It is not about choice.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

These countries have some negatives here really, how are your eyes and teeth? I'll just do sweeden a little first.

Much of what you say has little to do with standard of living. As for my eyes and teeth, you do know of the tuskegee experiment?

www.tuskegee.edu...

How about eugenics?
www.cbsnews.com...

Both of these are American atrocities against its own people. Not to mention putting Native Americans on reservations.
Find me a country and I'll show you skeleton in the closet. My post was a response to you asking someone to show us where socialism has worked in the world. I've shown you where it has.

reply to post by really


So you think the bad things about America justify the bad things about Socialism. Hum, two wrongs make a right for you. Hummmm