1940 Nazi Germany=2009 Israel(photos)

I understand how delicate this matter is.

You are in fact discussing more than the OP.

If the OP was the focus and you stopped attempting to cast each other in the light of one side or another, you might actually turn this into a constructive analysis. Right know it's becoming more and more of a personality clash.

Historical comparisons of events need not contain comments directed at the personalities discussing them.

Please refrain from name-calling.

Respectfully,

Maxmars

reply to post by NoamC


Those pictures are not scary huh? Would you find a picture of a Palestinian soldier pointing his rifle at your little boy scary?

Originally posted by stevegmu
I am man enough to admit my biases against the hateful religion of Islam its devout followers.

Peace be upon you. Hey that sounds pretty cool. I wonder if it will catch on?

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


Western ignorance. This from a supposed "document archivist?"

Nothing like painting with a wide brush, pushed by an erroneous, narrow-minded twit who just doesn't like Jews, Israel, or those who would disagree with you on the topic.

Excuse yourself all you want.

I'm not impressed.

The Israelis should know that the threat by the Palestinians to press charges
for war crimes at the International Court in The Hague is without substance,
because Israel, after signing the treaty, never ratified it, probably due to US
pressure, who themselves had withdrawn their signature to protect American
service men abroad from prosecution for war crimes. The US threatened a
number of states with cancellation of US military aid to not ratify the ICC-treaty.
In the "American Service Members´Protection Act" they even threaten to
use military force to free any American in THE HAGUE held accountable for
such crimes.
So, without ratification no Israeli soldier can be tried in the Netherlands.

Only individuals, no countries, can be indicted.

Iran has signed, but not ratified. If they were, in case of attack, to ratify the
treaty, all soldiers committting war crimes on Iranian soil could be indicted
at the ICC.

reply to post by Maxmars


//Stepping on soapbox
Heh, not to tout a high horse here but at least there is about 2 pages of useful dialogue and discussion, then it seems after you make a nice comment about how we need to focus on the discussion people just can't let things go and need to attack!
//Stepping down from said soapbox

As the moderator said, can we please focus on the discussion, I know I sidetracked a bit, but really almost all is relevant for this topic because of the large nature of it.

Maybe a pretty please with cherries on tops with chocolate sprinkles?

One of the worst and most misleading things is a photograph.

Aside from the technology that allows manipulations, a photograph is a point perspective, taken in milliseconds, narrow in scope of view, without narrative, without time, location, conditions, or chronological perspective.

Where a photograph is placed, within any context or comparison, related or not, will dictate presumption through manipulation, and leave open to any interpretation unless selected for skewed perspective.

A photograph shows a bloody dead child on the ground with a soldier nearby, rifle in hand, looking down on it.

What does this mean? Why is the child bloody? Why is the soldier standing there with the rifle in his hand? What's he looking at?

Did the soldier kill the child? Did the soldier discover the child? If the soldier hadn't been in the area, would the child still be alive?

If the soldier had arrived sooner, would the child still be alive? Did the soldier have anything to do with the death of the child, intentionally, or unintentionally?

Did the soldier kill the child by accident?

It could be that during a firefight between forces, a child ran across between the forces, and got caught in the crossfire. But then which side killed him?

It could be that the child ran in front of a car, was run over, and a nearby patrolling soldier was the only one caught from the angle the photograph was taken from.

It could be that a group of Muj were using women and children as shields, and this unfortunate child was killed during the engagement.

It could be that a car ran into an IED which exploded, and the child was thrown clear.

Or, it could be that the child's father, who by order of the village chiefs, was given the choice to sacrifice one son, or he and his whole family would be killed, since he had done some work for the Americans.

His choice. One son, or his entire family.

This actually happened.

The photograph visually demonstrates a fact. One armed soldier, one dead, bloody child.

At that time, at that moment, from that angle.

Yet there is no truth to be found within this fact.

Perceptions.

Placements.

Twisted comparisons.

Just to make a twisted point.

I'd be ashamed.



[edit on 8-10-2009 by dooper]

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by Maxmars

 

As the moderator said, can we please focus on the discussion...

You will note that Max IS a moderator.

To reiterate, any further personal attacks will be dealt with by post removal and post bans.

BTW, the Palestinian authorities have neither signed, nor ratified the treaty.
Do they fulfill the statutes of a state to adhere to the treaty ?
As far as I know eventual war crimes of the Israelis in Palestine cannot be
prosecuted.
So, the whole thing is a bluff.

When HITLER started exterminating the Jews, he was asked, if he did not fear
history. He answered: who talks now (20 years later) about the 1.5 million Armenians mass-murdered by the Turks ?

reply to post by dooper


Very astute observation about the scope of the photograph. Hence, in say an art gallery, photos rarely have descriptions about the context of the photograph. Usually its a description about what is seen in the photo.

But when used to try and make a connection to Nazi Germany and what they did to not only Jewish people, but also many others (political enemies, gays, etc.) it leads to a deceiving and at best skewed viewing of the situation.

Not sure if it was you, that made the comment, even in passing that one should compare the camps on internment of the Japanese Americans during WWII to Nazi German camps. If we gather photos of both, I am sure we can find visual parallels but not contextual parallels.

Just if people can see that there is a difference between a visual context and the real context is yet to be seen.

Here is the latest press release from Amnesty International on Goldstone Report

2 October 2009

As the Human Rights Council closes this week’s discussions on the Goldstone report, Amnesty International calls for the UN Secretary-General to refer the report to the UN Security Council without delay.

This week the UN Human Rights Council met in Geneva to discuss the findings and recommendations of the report of Judge Richard Goldstone’s Fact-Finding Mission into violations of international law that occurred during the conflict in Gaza and southern Israel between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009.

Amnesty International expresses regret that, by taking a decision today to defer a vote on the Goldstone report until March 2010, the Human Rights Council has failed to take immediate steps to implement the report recommendations. It is concerned that this deferral indicates a lack of political will to deal robustly with issues of accountability for violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law in Gaza and southern Israel.

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: UN must act now on Goldstone report


This press release is from Amnesty Intl' after the ruling was delayed:

2 July 2009

Israeli forces killed hundreds of unarmed Palestinian civilians and destroyed thousands of homes in Gaza in attacks which breached the laws of war, Amnesty International concluded in a new report published on Thursday. Operation 'Cast Lead': 22 days of death and destruction, is the first comprehensive report to be published on the conflict, which took place earlier this year.

"Israel's failure to properly investigate its forces' conduct in Gaza, including war crimes, and its continuing refusal to cooperate with the UN international independent fact-finding mission headed by Richard Goldstone, is evidence of its intention to avoid public scrutiny and accountability," said Donatella Rovera, who headed a field research mission to Gaza and southern Israel during and after the conflict.

"The international community, led by the UN Security Council, must use all its leverage to ensure that Israel cooperates fully with the Goldstone inquiry, which now offers the best means to establish the truth."

Impunity for war crimes in Gaza and southern Israel a recipe for further civilian suffering

and this is from last month by Amnesty Intl'

All relevant UN bodies must act promptly and in coordination to implement the recommendations of the UN-mandated Goldstone report on violations of international law committed in Gaza and southern Israel in late December and January, Amnesty International said today.

“The UN Human Rights Council should endorse the report and its recommendations and request the UN Secretary-General to refer it to the UN Security Council,” said Donatella Rovera, who headed Amnesty International’s investigation into the conflict in Israel and Gaza.

“The UN Security Council and other UN bodies must now take the steps necessary to ensure that the victims receive the justice and reparation that is their due and that perpetrators don’t get away with murder.”

Israel-Gaza: Implementation of UN Fact finding mission recommendations crucial for justice

Originally posted by PlagueHeart
i think we Americans should mind are own god #ing dam business we as a nation can go five #ing min.s with out sticking noise in to peoples #

Please remember that not everyone in the ATS community agrees with you. That means that the force of your words are misplaced - and you're just going to evoke a similar response with no contribution to the issue of the OP.

If I might presume to give you some advice, explaining your position works better than letting loose a stream of profanities...

Neither side's government, the Israelis or the Palestinians, have my support or my sympathy. Both sides have, hundreds of times over, shown themselves to be nothing more than a pack of murderous, genocidal, hate-filled scumbags. I dare you to look at those images of burned and murdered children and tell me it's just.

Both sides are dealing with a difficult situation that neither of them wants. It has been that way for 60 years. It is not going to change and long as people keep killing each other and indoctrinating hatred in each new generation.

It's the people who live in that part of the world and have to bury their children, bury their families, live in refugee camps, live with daily degradations of the soul...these are the people who deserve sympathy. They deserve compassion and help.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by sanchoearlyjones

 

You do know those camps in the pics are most likely not in Israel, correct? Are you also aware of Pallywood? That's the 'Hollywood' of the Palestinians, where they stage attacks against each other and mutilate bodies, in order to blame Israel.

You're serious?
Its never been mentioned that this is Jew hate and you're introducing that position now. That is skillful sick.
How about a highjacked religion in a theocratic terrorist taken land.
The hate that must be sustained to keep this alive is taught so well and the propoganda so large and repeated on all fronts its inescapable.
Wow, just wow... I read your words again and Pallywood? seriously Pallywood?
Too funny!

To the original OP thanks for the post!

For stevegmu

your statement "Why are you scared to admit you are bigoted against Israel and Jews?" suggest that no one starting from an impartial neutral point of view could ever come to agree that the actions of Israel against the civilians in this last Gaza surge were disgusting and barbaric. That only those with a pre-existing bias against Israel and/or Jews might disapprove. Are you for real?
There are many people, including American Jews who you count on for support, who KNOW they are not anti-semitic yet still want to know why you use white phosphorus against civilians. Why your government and military, not to be confused with JEWS, are acting like Nazis. They come here and read this hoping for explanations and the best you can do is the tired worn-out cry of anti-semitic or self-hating Jews. Since they know they themselves are not Jew-haters that explanation is meaningless. What do you think they ask themselves when they see you have no other explanation to offer? Perhaps that you have no explanation period? That Israel's actions cannot be excused?
If the IJDF cannot do better than this then you have no hope. The Christians lost millions of followers to atheism because they became worn our with the 'God moves in mysterious ways' answer to their questions. How long before your supporters grow tired of the anti-semitic mantra?
As is, you sound like spoiled children caught hitting your little brother and crying 'he hit me first'. You are losing credibility, support, and sympathy. You know, come to think of it, you are probably hurting the Zionist movement, damaging its image, chasing off its backers. Yeah, forget what I said. Keep up the good work.

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow
As is, you sound like spoiled children caught hitting your little brother and crying 'he hit me first'. You are losing credibility, support, and sympathy.

Brilliantly put, it could not be more easily stated. Nicely done.

reply to post by Retseh


we did not bomb them or commit half of the acts that the israelis have done against the people in gaza, we had no blockades of their countries, we did not drop white phosphorus on them, and we did not teach our children to hate

Your suggestion that the only way any on this forum might help to improve the situation would be by convincing holocaust survivors suggest a severe lack of imagination on your part.
Assume not a single survivor comes to this site to see anything written, yet the photos and information here might reach how many other non-survivors and encourages them to stop supporting the Zionist war or to withdraw funds and/or investments from Israel? The Soviet Union fell apart when the price of maintaining it's military in so many foreign lands became too great. How long will Israel remain the leading military power without American dollars backing them? Convincing Americans not to vote for leaders who will provide military aid to Israel is much more important than converting elderly Holocaust survivors.
Making Americans understand that this aid is the primary reason for being on the Muslim hate list is also important. When your six-year-old daughter is blown to bits by a missile it is hard for the father to see a major difference between the Israel pilot who fired the missile and the American government which provided both the missile and the plane/helicopter it was fired from.
Then, after having buried two or three children killed in this way, should you join some anti-American group it will be claimed your motive is you 'hate our freedom'. Your dead children, killed with American supplied weapons and labeled 'collateral damage', will not even be worthy of mention.
As bad as Nazis? I say worse. I have never seen a picture of a Nazi with some small child's head resting by his foot. But then, I've never seen a picture of Arab terrorist using children as human shields. Have you? Could you please provide a source so we see this ourselves and stop thinking of this as merely propaganda?
Question: Why isn't Iran allowed to think a nuclear Israel is the greatest threat to their safety?
Question: Why is it wrong for Iran to refuse to allow the U.N. to examine their atomic weapons program but acceptable for Israel?
Question: Why, when Iraq refused to follow the demands of the U.N. was this used to point our how evil Saddam was but suddenly when the U.N. criticizes Israel it suddenly becomes (of course, what else?) anti-semitic?
It is reaching the point people are being forced into hip-boots when trying to deal with the claims of the pro-Israeli groups. Even if this keeps their feet dry the stink is still starting to reach their noses. Your facade is crumbling. The sudden surge in comparisons to the Nazis can be explained by the simple fact your propaganda is not holding back the obvious truths. I believe a recent poll has shown most people in the world consider Israel, not Iran, not North Korea, but Israel, the greatest hindrance to world peace. Nuff said.

This is just sad, at least let the children go, there is no need to bring them into this, they dont understand whats going on, yet they are the ones that are left to grow up (if they get to that age) and carry this on, thats no life for any human being. Imagine if that was your child..................



S+F for the post OP, this kinda stuff no matter how hard it is too look at needs to be brought forward and for people to realy understand what is happening out there in the REAL world.