Could you wish an ETERNITY of hell on someone?

Originally posted by Donnie Darko

Originally posted by calstorm
Thats the thing, as Christians we are supposed to be trying to keep everyone from going to hell. We aren't supposed to wish that for even the worst sinner.

isn't it kinda trying to love a god that can be that wrathful though?

What makes you think that God is actually full of wrath? That could have been a lie from the moment of its conception (and I imagine that the idea of a wrathful and vengeful God was conceived within the minds of ignorant and non educated people...not God.)

Keep in mind that the bible was written by people who thought that every time it rained that God was releasing some sort of plague. THE GODS MUST BE ANGRY!!!

Anyway, that's just a thought and I claim no absolutes.

I would choose to send my ex wife for lying to me. After being divorced and struggling financially to support myself and pay child support I find out when the child I raised and made sooo many life and job choices for, wasn't mine.Yeah... she can go to hell..

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy
I would choose to send my ex wife for lying to me. After being divorced and struggling financially to support myself and pay child support I find out when the child I raised and made sooo many life and job choices for, wasn't mine.Yeah... she can go to hell..

AWK-WARD!

I would point out that with our Creator all things are possible. This also means that our interpretation of the will of the Creator is likely flawed due to our narrow perspective within our perception of space time.

The Creator's will can be done without our being able to understand it or to communicate that effectively through the written media such as the Bible. I say this because if you realize these things would would also likely understand that the mind of the Creator would not be detached from the consciousness of the person suffering for all eternity.

Why would the Creator subject not only the poor flawed creatures that he made to such torment for all eternity but himself for all time as well through that attachment to those suffering creatures.

I think this notion is a non sense one that is born of a primitive understanding of the true nature of the divine will.

For the Creator to condemn his own flawed creations to an eternal life of suffering would be absurd self abuse as he would also suffer with that creature forever since he is the source of that creation.

Can you see the logical flaw with this notion?

Remember also that to a human consciousness we could experience eternal damnation in what in real time is only a few moments but the effect on our conscious mind would be profound. I think that the prophets that related this notion to their fellow men experienced that eternal suffering in a vision that was given to them as a warning. This notion gained strength because the person who related the story could see the vision very clearly and it was such a powerful experience that he was able to describe this horror in graphic detail that was believed by others and passed on.

The fact is I have experienced this kind of a vision myself. It was like living forever in a place of torment but in fact the experience only lasted a few hours. When my consciousness returned to normal space time I felt as I had just come back from just such an eternal place of torment. I could remember thousands of years of suffering but after a time the vision faded and I realized that it was something that was given to me as a lesson.




[edit on 3-10-2009 by wayouttheredude]

I feel that the whole concept of Hell is one of the many, many proofs that God is a myth. There is no way that a God who is all-loving could ever condemn someone to that type of cruelty. Even Hitler wasn't that sadistic; as much of a ruthless tyrant as he was, he didn't even try to keep people in a perpetual state of torture.

Hell is nothing more than a tool (imaginary place) used by organised religion to control the masses through fear and condemn them to an eternity in hell unless they conform. It's the oldest trick in the book.

Responding OP. I think you would think different if you have seen some of the great evils that has happen here on earth. There has been a number of thing that if you have seen you might think different. There are some people so evil, and bad in the heart leaving them to exist anyway cannot help men exist. There is a reason God's coming to judge. There is a reason that God's coming to prove himself. And there is a reason why some will chose not to call on God.

Make no mistake God and Christ are coming and its not far away.

Originally posted by kindred
Hell is nothing more than a tool (imaginary place) used by organised religion to control the masses through fear and condemn them to an eternity in hell unless they conform. It's the oldest trick in the book.

Agreed.

There are 2 possible origins for that word that I have found. One I can verify and the other I can't.

The one I can't verify is that "hell" was an old english word that meant "to cover or conceal", or "a pit". That definition is found here. But maybe someone has more info on this.

THe other one is the Norse "Hel". It is both the "god" and the realm of the underworld. Here .

One thing is for sure and not open to argument, and that is that "hell" is not a valid translation of any word in scripture. Period.

What better way to control the ignorant than to threaten them with eternal torture in real fire if they didn't toe the line. And what I find really ironic is that these people cannot even agree on what that line is.



[edit on 5-10-2009 by PSUSA]

[edit on 5-10-2009 by PSUSA]

People tend to wish themselves to hell (personally anyone who kills are harms kids needs a permanent vacation pass there forever) anyone disagree?

[edit on 10/5/09 by Ophiuchus 13]

I don't think thinking in absolutes frees ourselves.

It's better to cut your own arm then to harm a kid with it,
if that person is in the freedom of control. of choice.

But one who is not in control is life teaching you something about life...
if there were monsters, we better learn from their mistakes.

there is ignorance, and there is insanity... 2 different things.

Many people avoid dirty words, so they become deeds..
you can only help the insane by seeing them,
not by ignoring them.


(before you react, read it, i don't give a 'go' for insanity,
preaching people to hell is not going to cure them,
they will avoid to see their own insanity, and
avoid healing it in time before insanity really comes out from them )

a person can only try to stop insanity,
life in total can really stop it.

thinking in absolutes is not going to take away
the devil. because accusing, that is his job to do.

(from a human perspective, i would clearly feel hate towards persons
who don't do everything in their minds to avoid being monsters,
but we allow insanity to grow because we see persons as evil,
so much that they run away from their own selves, and become
monsters by ignorance)

[edit on 5-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

The New Testament mentions permanent death for the wicked in several statements. In Matthew 7:13-14 in exhorting His disciples to choose the way that leads to life. Jesus stated that the end of those who do not choose life is "destruction." Paul also stated that the wicked will die. In Romans 6:20-21 he talks about those who were slaves of sin and says that for them "the end of those things is death." Romans 6:23 plainly says "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This proves that the punishment of the wicked is death, not a life of eternal suffering. It also proves that we do not already posess eternal life. It is something God chooses to give us. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul states that "God alon has immortality." In Galatians 6:8 Paul states "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." This tells us that sinners will eventually reap destruction and the obediant will recieve eternal life. In Philippians 3:18-19 Paul speaks of those who are "enemies of the cross of Christ." and how their end is "destruction," and not eternal torment after death. In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul says the wicked will come to a complete end: "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord..."

So, does man have an immortal soul? The Bible declares that man is temporary, of the dust of the earth. Immortality is only achieved through a resurrection from God. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 shows that immortality is only achieved at the resurrection, not at the end of one's physical life.

In Matthew 25:30 it reads: 'And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

This verse references to Psalms 112:10 so let's see what that says:
"The wicked will see it and be grieved; He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked shall perish.

Now word association shows that "gnashing of teeth" occurs followed by "melting away" and the "desire of the wicked... perish."

So you see, hellfire is a 2nd death.... not everlasting torment. All verses with hellfire mentioned or the punishment of wicked people refers to them all perishing or being destroyed... not sufferring eternally.

Originally posted by Locoman8

So you see, hellfire is a 2nd death.... not everlasting torment. All verses with hellfire mentioned or the punishment of wicked people refers to them all perishing or being destroyed... not sufferring eternally.

Great input for THE who dont even know of the SECOND DEATH THE NON BELIEVERS MUST FACE.

"A stranger coming into Christendom would certainly deduce from the literature of the day that there are two great powers struggling for supremacy, one good, and one evil, and that the evil was not only uppermost at present, but would eternally prevail over the good. Only a feeble fraction would be saved from the clutches of the evil one." (1)

Most Christians believe that those who give their life to Christ will spend eternity in heaven and in the new earth, but those who DON'T know Christ will be destined either to permanent annihilation or a burning hell of some duration, either forever or at least for a time. (Some think the "time" will be "as long as each individual deserves ---since God is "just!")

Some say it's really a "loving act" for God to burn up His children because they wouldn't want to be in heaven anyway! It's interesting how we human beings would think it a heinous monstrous crime if a neighbor burned up his children, but when God does it, somehow it's classified as a "loving act." Many explain that God burning up His children is God's "strange act." But God says He's NOT like us. His ways are HIGHER than our ways.

Human beings destroy their enemies. If God destroys His enemies, then He's just like us!! And if He's just like us, we're ALL in trouble!!

However, there are some who believe that God is far too loving to destroy any of His children so as a result they believe that God will save everyone, whether they accept Jesus and allow Him to change their life - or EVEN if they DON'T! That theology is known as "Universalism."

Of course, if a person is "saved" WITHOUT his life being changed, then heaven and the new earth will be exactly the same as this earth is now. There will be violence, sin and degradation, because nothing will have changed. And furthermore, God will NOT suddenly and arbitrarily change a person's life, against his will, to make him like Jesus.

So the dilemma arises regarding our picture of God. If God is truly loving, how could He burn up His children? Or how could He even permanently annihilate them? But if He is "just" as we have been taught, then how could He do anything else?

To elucidate this dilemma, let's first ask some common sense questions in order to clearly establish the problem we are addressing because God instructs us to "Come now and let us REASON together." Isaiah 1:18 So He wants us to use our mind. In addition, we will, of course, also "Search the scriptures" to find the Biblical answer to our dilemma.

Questions:


1) Could your children ever do anything bad enough that you would KILL them for it? And would you BURN them to death? I doubt it!!

Where do we get this love that we have for our children? From God, of course. But no human parent in his or her right mind would burn up their childen for making a mistake or even for commiting a horrible crime. So ---are WE more loving than God?

We are taught that God is a loving and kind God. But we are also taught that He will burn us up, or permanently annihilate us, if we DON'T love Him. In essence God is saying "Love me ---and everything will be fine. But if you DON'T love me, I'll have to kill you, and I'll do it in the most horribly painful way possible. I have no other choice since you've broken my law!" In simple terms, God's really saying "Love me --- or I'll kill you!"

But it is IMPOSSIBLE to truly love someone if you are afraid of them! We can't REALLY love God if we are just worried about what He'll do to us if we DON'T love Him! The Bible tells us, "It is the GOODNESS of God that LEADS US TO REPENTANCE." (Romans 2:4) NOT THE FEAR OF GOING TO HELL. That fear only makes us into a REBEL!

Jesus died on the cross to show us that NO MATTER WHAT we, His children, did to Him, --- including beating Him, spitting in His face, mocking Him, jamming a crown of thorns on his head, ridiculing Him, driving spikes through His hands and feet and MURDERING HIM ----- He would NEVER, NEVER hurt us! In fact He said of those torturing Him "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing."

Yet most Christians believe that, even though Jesus said "Forgive them" while He was on the cross, those people will "get theirs" later. They will go to hell and be eternally destroyed for what they did. But isn't that "two-faced" of Jesus? He says one thing on the cross, but plans to do the opposite later! I thought we have been taught that He is "the same yesterday, today and forever!"

Jesus said "Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you." He wants US to do that - But I guess that doesn't work for God, because He's going to BURN ALL His enemies to DEATH!

2) Jesus died with the sins of the world on Him - a "surrogate sinner." If He died a "sinner" and the penalty for sin is death FOREVER -- then why isn't Jesus still dead????? How could He pay the "price" for us and satisy the "penalty" for sin, if He was only dead for a short time, rather than forever?

3) In the parable of the lost sheep, how long did the shepherd search for the lost sheep? Until Probation closed? Until the sheep died from exposure to the elements? Until the shepherd got tired of searching, or until he wanted to move on to do something else? Of course not.
Answer: He searched until HE FOUND IT!

In the parable of the lost coin, how long did the woman search for the lost coin??
Answer: Until SHE FOUND IT!

Both the sheep and the coin were found. Why do we have two such similar parables? Answer: The sheep KNEW it was lost, and was subsequently found. But the coin was found when it DIDN'T even know it was lost!

God has said "I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you." Heb. 13:5 But yet we're told that God's going to eventually destroy about 75% of ALL the people in the world!!!! If that's not forsaking us, then what is?

Luke 19:10 Jesus said "For the Son of Man is come to seek and TO SAVE that which was lost." (And since everyone has no choice but to be born a sinner, then everyone is included in the term"lost" !) And Jesus said He came to SAVE them, NOT just to "offer" salvation to them -- but TO SAVE them!!!

John 12:47 Jesus said "For I came not to judge the world, but TO SAVE IT." (the WHOLE world)

Romans 8:38,39 For I am persuaded that NEITHER DEATH, nor life nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATURE (including Satan) CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD!" So that means that Death - INCLUDING the SECOND death CANNOT separate us from God!!

Eccl. 3:11 "He has made EVERYTHING beautiful IN ITS TIME."

Rev. 21:5 "Behold, I make ALL THINGS new."

One last question: This WHOLE plan of salvation is NOT really about us, even though we're always worrying "Am I saved? - Am I lost?" That's terribly self-centered. NO, the WHOLE plan of salvation is about the CHARACTER OF GOD! God has put His own character on trial before the universe. Satan is the Adversary, accusing day and night.

God knows the heart of every person. But the other beings in the universe, including the good and evil angels, CANNOT read your heart.

If YOU say you love God, God knows whether that is really true. But the other beings don't know that for sure, because they can't read your heart. Satan will say that YOU say you love God ONLY because you DON'T want to burn in hell, or be permanently annihilated. Even though God may know differently, HOW WILL HE EVER PROVE IT TO THE OTHER BEINGS IN THE UNIVERSE?

The answer is: He WON'T be able to prove you love Him ONLY because you want to be with Him, and not because you just don't want to burn to death or be annihilated UNLESS ther

Honestly i think anyone who wishes HELL FOR ETERNITY on anyone, is very counter productive.

If your going to follow Christ's teachings...he said love and help your fellow man NO MATTER WHAT.
if they harm you
if they wrong you

for someone to say i wish hell on you for eternity...is really ignorant, and in fact shows the EVIL IN YOURSELF...rather than the evil in THEM...

My point?
if your a person of god and love, you would wish for them to LEARN from there mistakes, and join you in peace and happiness...
not be a d**k and toss them in flames forever lol

The word "hell" in the bible is actually a combination of 4 different words. 1 in hebrew and 3 in greek.

Sheol.... The hebrew word for death or grave is translated "hell" in most bibles.

Hades.... The greek counterpart to Sheol. It is the grave.

Tartarus..... Used once in 2 Peter 2:4 to explain the confinement or imprisonment of fallen angels (demons) during Christ's 1000 year reign on earth.

Gehenna.... Greek for "Valley of Hinnom" which was south of Jerusalem and was used as the city dump. It was caught on fire to burn up the refuse, dead animal carcasses and the corpses of prisoners who were not worthy of a proper burial. Hence, no one was burning alive.... They were dead. This is symbolic of the "lake of fire" known as the "second death."

No eternal suffering... but there is eternal "non-existence". Read Malachi chapter 4. It's a good example of what happens in hellfire. The sinners will become the ashes beneath our feet. It's not hard to find these facts if people will stop listening to their "fire and brimstone" preachers and read the bible.

Originally posted by Locoman8
No eternal suffering... but there is eternal "non-existence". Read Malachi chapter 4. It's a good example of what happens in hellfire. The sinners will become the ashes beneath our feet. It's not hard to find these facts if people will stop listening to their "fire and brimstone" preachers and read the bible.

How do you reconcile that with Revelation 20:10:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
A lot of people who consider themselves Christians have no problem with God sending non-believers and sinners to eternal suffering. This has always bothered me immensely, that God sends anyone to Hell, I can't think of a crime that deserves infinite punishment, and many Christians believe even not believing is a crime worthy of eternal Hell.

Perverted thinking almost always results in perverted conclusions.

God does not send non-believers and sinners to eternal suffering. God believes in free will. You are allowed to reject God and his blessings. However, you can't reject God and his blessings and expect something pleasant.

reply to post by CharlesMartel


Uh huh.

So what you just said is that our "free will" trumps Gods' will.

Is God sovereign or not?

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
A lot of people who consider themselves Christians have no problem with God sending non-believers and sinners to eternal suffering. This has always bothered me immensely, that God sends anyone to Hell, I can't think of a crime that deserves infinite punishment, and many Christians believe even not believing is a crime worthy of eternal Hell.

Does anyone else see the paradox here?

Athiests, or non-Christians as a whole, complain about Christians who attempt to teach them about salvation. Yet this op is saying we wish sinners to hell? Which is it? Is evangelizing the same as wishing someone to hell? How much sense does that make?

And, here is the real irony that I cannot get straight: IF you people don't believe in Christ or the fact that belief of Him will save you from hell, WHY are you concerned that anyone even COULD wish you to hell? No Christ, no hell, right?

I know that's a lot of questions, I also know there won't be one straight answer to any of them.

Athiests are like dogs chasing their tails. You'll never catch it like that.

Oh, and one other little small detail. Humans can't wish or send anyone to hell. Only God can do that. But not to worry, if God doesn't exist. Right?



[edit on 6-10-2009 by Bombeni]