Faith is a method of blinding oneself

reply to post by Alpha Arietis

Faith in God is no different. It doesn't require blind submission. The proof is presented. It's there for anyone to see.

Faith in a deity and faith in a person are two very different things even though one may like to equate them. Most of the time it's not really even a subjectively experienced deity but a character of a book said to be real and to be believed on faith.

Faith in a religious sense is the more truer sense, belief without evidence. For people, another meaning applies; trust, virtually interchangeable in this context with faith.


reply to post by Centurionx

Who says I'm pretending?

do you claim to know any ecumenical truths or not?

also, I did'nt have time to read that wall of text just yet, I was too busy readin' the bible lol. And briefly, what does that video say? Organized religion blows? Yeah I get it, there are only about 93 billion threads.

Not as such. I'll put the description up.

Man's Flaw states the case that religion is a creation
of man and not God. I am undecided as to whether
there is a God or not, however it is painfully clear
that all religions are simply the manifestation of
humanities weakness, flaws and fears. I would be
happy for religious people to believe whatever helps
them to get through their days, however religion,
since its inception has made detrimental encroachments
on all avenues of life. It is beyond me how people
can still believe in it (or more accurately, want to
believe in it).

Topics Covered in "Man's Flaw" part 1 and 2:
Relgion, God, anger, hate, racism, fear, greed, doubt,
execution, peace, war, death, september 11th, 9/11,
the Crusades, killing, logic, faith, belief, radical,fundamentalism, suicide bombing, evolution,
the big bang, hell, heaven, reward, torture, the
bible, jesus, the koran, the quran, torah, prayer,
natural disaster, atheism, theism, deism, deist, God's Flaw exorcism, barainwashing, children, morality, iraq war,
indoctrination, priests, kin psychology, neptune,
moses, obatala,hindu, muslim, islam, guru gobind
singh, buddhism, aed, garden of eden, original sin,
freyatol, egyptian gods, slavery, amaterasu, venus,
zeus, africa, poverty.

reply to post by radarloveguy

I am sure you are softening a little bit ,
did you say , "as if the CREATOR of all things".......?

That was on the assumption that one existed. Take a look again and consider the meaning.

"as if the creator of all things needs our money or our servitude and submission."


reply to post by Doc Velocity

But what I see immediately is that the OP is confusing Faith with Religion.
Big No No

In the context of what I'm saying, they are the same thing. Faith is central to religion because they don't have anything else to make a case with.

Faith is not the same as belief, either.

It is actually, but a special type of belief, one without evidence. Look it up in a dictionary.

[edit on 4-10-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
Faith in a religious sense is the more truer sense, belief without evidence.

How do you know? Is that the way that religious people define faith? Belief without evidence. Personally I think there is a little more to it. I think it is more like a "hunch" based on a lot of circumstantial evidence and also trust in those who have come and gone before.

Not as such. I'll put the description up.

Man's Flaw states the case that religion is a creation
of man and not God. I am undecided as to whether
there is a God or not, however it is painfully clear
that all religions are simply the manifestation of
humanities weakness, flaws and fears.

As is virtually everything else invented by man. We didn't tame the horse or invent the automobile because we were such swift and tireless runners ourselves.

I would be
happy for religious people to believe whatever helps
them to get through their days, however religion,
since its inception has made detrimental encroachments
on all avenues of life. It is beyond me how people
can still believe in it (or more accurately, want to
believe in it).

You could say the same thing about numerous of man's "advancements".

I'm wondering why religion is being singled out here as opposed to say, industrial monopolies or floridated water or "all of the above". One could say that "politics" has made detrimental encroachments on all avenues of life or that "television" has.

If you did then thoughtful people would say that you were being imprecise, or that you weren't a very deep thinker, or maybe that you had a hidden agenda, some little hobby horse, that was behind your overly simplified description of religion and its effects.

Faith is central to religion because they don't have anything else to make a case with.

What about all those manifestations and personal conversations with God that one reads about in the Bible? Are you saying that those aren't real incidents or are you saying that you have a "hunch" that they aren't true, that you are taking it on faith that they didn't happen.

It is actually, but a special type of belief, one without evidence. Look it up in a dictionary.

Religion and the reasons for it's existence are a lot deeper than you think.

Personally, I don't think religion was invented.

It started being done first, almost unconsciously, then started being recognized and then ritualized, standardized, monetized, degraded, despised, misrepresented, exploited, abandoned and trivialized.

All the while, of course, still being practiced in authentic ways by the truly religious and even by atheists.

I started to try to find out what real religion was in my mid twenties and continued to deepen my understanding from then on. I'm sixty now and have uncovered a lot. I know there is much more to learn and I intend to do it.

You might be interested in William Barrett's "Irrational Man", or William James's "Varieties of Religious Experience". "Man's Flaw" is not the final word on religion.

[edit on 5-10-2009 by ipsedixit]

What is humanity without faith and hope?

These qualities have got a lot of people through otherwise unbearable situations. Nelson Mandela is a great example. And the bird man of Alcatraz. There are many examples.

Humans are the only animals able to believe in something, and to hope for something - this sets us apart.

I believe that faith and hope, which are inseparable, are to be treasured.

Pope John XXIII, the Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Swami Vivikananda. These people have all been great spiritual activists and cheer leaders for humanity, even down to the lowest of humanity. Their activities have benefitted millions. Many a local pastor benefits a few dozen. Many an uncontroversial imam carefully guides his local faithful in righteous and merciful ways. There is a lot to religion.

The truly religious glow. They are at peace with others but most importantly with themselves, with what they are in the world. They aren't troubled by existence. They are alive to its nuances and float along in awareness of them, alert for more and deeper realizations.

The happy heart is like a cork that always pops to the top of any experience. The comprehensively happy heart is the gift of religion.

reply to post by Welfhard

Faith is a method of blinding oneself

I unapologetically have disdain for religious thought.

You seem to confuse faith and religion. One can have faith without religion. Faith certainly doesn't blind me. It helps me open my eyes and see things for what they are. I have strong faith in God. I don't need religion to muck it up.

Religion sucks...on this we are in agreement. Religion is political. It has always been a means to control people.

It's funny. I took the day off today and just got home from running some errands. When I got home there were two old ladies ringing my doorbell. (I did notice a strange car on the street). Turns out they were JWs. I was polite and took their literature as I like to read all kinds of religious propaganda. They asked if they could come in and I said no. They asked if they could back another time and I said I didn't think so.

There were two more coming from my neighbor's house across the street when these two were leaving my yard. They all got into their car and headed to next neighborhood I imagine. God bless them and their need to recruit. To share the "word" as it were.

Originally posted by Welfhard
In the context of what I'm saying, [Faith and Religion] are the same thing. Faith is central to religion because they don't have anything else to make a case with.

I disagree. What is central to all religions is the hope of a reward in the afterlife. Obviously, religions know and teach very little about Faith, or else there'd be billions of "faithful" people in the world.

The sad fact is that there are not billions nor even millions of Faithful in the world. My own guess is that the truly Faithful may number in the low thousands, if that many.

Rather, there are billions of hopeful people in the world, people who follow theistic precepts, people who hope they are going to heaven or wherever, but these people are not Faithful.

If we were all truly Faithful, the world would be a completely different place.

Originally posted by Welfhard
[Faith is the same as belief], but a special type of belief, one without evidence. Look it up in a dictionary.

I know what the dictionary says about Faith, and the dictionary is sorely lacking in accuracy. That's why the dictionary isn't The Bible.

Well, I suppose a dictionary is a bible to some people, particularly those who accept Man's paltry accumulation of transient knowledge as the only Truth.

— Doc Velocity

Faith is not like flying an airplane, turning off all its electronics(even the engine if you wish) in bad weather and expecting to land it safely.... That's stupidity.

Faith is when you've exhausted all options but you still chose to move forward, never thinking of losing hope, never giving up...

Omgoodness. another one of these threads. It never ends.


first let me respond to Psychops.



How do you manage to have inner peace knowing that so many others are destitute, abused, starving, persecuted, oppressed in this world? Do you live a fantasy in your head?


Because we are here to be happy. God has given me nothing but peace, yes I feel bad for souls suffering, but I don't go around in self guilt for things I can only do so much about..

If everybody adopts emo mentality like your statement does it do s*** for anybody or make progress?

We gotta keep alittle bit of happiness in us in the midst of many bad things or atleast calmness.



And now to the second person to reply to the OP, I think.


" It helps people "


It's not only that, that's alittle irrelevant. We believe an actual God created the Earth. He put the penis and vagina together and all the complex organs and things in the earth.

This is what we believe. Many saints seen god face to face after he died.

and so for the Op to say stupid stuff like.

" it's needless today '

is BS... No it's not needless to us. Get it through your head.

Athiest always talk stuff about tolerance YET, they can't refrain from making threads like this and saying we need to be more tolarent to athiest.

why can't you leave religous people alone? There has to be some hidden insecurity in their souls of his reality.


Listen OP, that science you talk about, making progress, will wipe our Earth out soon. idol Minds created nukes.

The prophets talked about nukes years before cars were invented, infact the bible seems to mention it too.


This is the progress we all so desire. No. Science will destroy Earth. God knew it, and that's why he talked about it in revelations and saints throughout the ages.

He knew the 20th century would be full of idol minds, and they create inventions that destroy earth.


You are in chapter 13 of the apocolypse right now, of that same bible you think is false and irrelevant.

That micro chip technology is here right now waiting to be unleashed on mandkind, the ultimate control.

That is not progress, this is called NWO agenda preparing antichrist and global communism.

and like I keep saying every other thread like this. You remove religion which antichrist will try and do, and you have communism, and the same thing, nationg against nation, and the world ending.


and this is the thing. Readers reading this, you must not lose the faith. You know God created our bodies. And you know Christ tuaght the truth.

The OP might be sincere in his belief, but this falling away and denial of God has been predicted in the last age.

so you can expect tons of threads like this.

so on that note.

bye OP!!!!!

love the Halo video game picture.



[edit on 8-10-2009 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 8-10-2009 by JesusisTruth]

I would be
happy for religious people to believe whatever helps
them to get through their days, however religion,
since its inception has made detrimental encroachments
on all avenues of life. It is beyond me how people
can still believe in it (or more accurately, want to
believe in it). (OP)



Whatever gets them through the day? What kind of generalization is that? How can people take your ignorant but seriously with statements like that?

We get through the day like everybody else does. Some non believers take weed and drugs and pain pills to get through the day, yet am i suppose to think that all athiest are supposed to get through the day just because they don't believe in God?

No. it's an irrelevant statement. God just makes the soul more happy and dependant on him because we love him.

It's like living in the presence of a father we believe in, not just some sky drug that gets us throgh the day.



Man's Flaw states the case that religion is a creation
of man and not God. I am undecided as to whether
there is a God or not, however it is painfully clear
that all religions are simply the manifestation of
humanities weakness, flaws and fears.

(OP)


No. That's not true considering hypocrites exist in all aspects of life, they infiltrate themselves into Gods church too.

Or they could be the creation of a revealed truth to a man who came in the flesh to visit his people. See you said it is painfully clear, but that's not a fact. That's your fact, not ours.

True religion which is the bible in my belief teaches against fear. there is a passage against fear itself.



Faith is not only the blinders that keep us from seeing, it's also the yoke over our shoulders that keep religious leaders in wealth as if the creator of all things needs our money or our servitude and submission. Faith has a certain legacy of anti-intellectualism teaching followers to disagree not because of merit but because whatever the different idea is simply different. There is no progression in faith.
(OP)


Oh really, so you speak for the what billions of religious people who chose God and call them blind? You call us blind, we call you blind, let God decide whos blind and who's not.

and as for God needing money. haha LOL, just about every saint in our church was dirt poor, and so were many of the Popes. And the bible teaches the exact opposite, and God NEVER said he needs our money.

I know a sacrastine in our church, I know for a FACT where the money goes. it goes to homeless shelters and to fix repairs on the roofsa and stuff whch cost thousands of dollars.

He handles the money.

God never said donate money to me or else. ever. Souls freeley give their money to shelters and repairs, and if the soul steals the money they will pay a huge price.

So you're saying all people who collect collection plates are doing evil with the money? that's just not true. I know of many saints life stories who created shelters and gathered money yet they kept zero. It's called an acual heart.

so it's more generalization.




so again, it's more statements from a bias mindset. But one thing I am glad of is that you keep the possibilty of God alive in your mind, so kudos to that ..


[edit on 8-10-2009 by JesusisTruth]

Religion sucks...on this we are in agreement. Religion is political. It has always been a means to control people.

Excitable boy


It doesn't suck to me. Every belief in a God is a religion. So you believe in God ex boy, you believe in religion. What is religion anyways?

everybody has rules. Athiest have rules. Communist have rules. GOD has rules. So we are all follwing something and guide to living.

everybody in a sense imo is religious to their certain doctrine.

and so to say it sucks, is just not accurate considering true religion teaches freedom from control. It's your opinion.


You guys say control, contro, control, but everybody is controlled. Communist are controlled, athiest are, maybee by lust or whatever, but control happens to everybody.


What God is, is an end to that control. Which I believe is in our religion, which is nothing more than a belief in Jesus.

Because God put justice in our hearts, so that source, there has to be a source who will make a just judgement one day and make all things right.

If it's in us it's in the source who is a loving God. He put that justice that hates control in our hearts.

that's what grace is. a movememnt in the soul of love and understanding.


and everybody says I believe in God yet not religion..

yea but at what point does God come share himself with his people? It's an unknown God.

how many idol inventions can be made out of a God that doesn't reveal anything about himself or rules to his people?

My parents taught me rules and lessons, what kind of God just is without being made known?

This is what I mean about a revealed truth.


peace ex boy.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by JesusisTruth]

reply to post by JesusisTruth

It doesn't suck to me. Every belief in a God is a religion. So you believe in God ex boy, you believe in religion. What is religion anyways?

everybody has rules. Athiest have rules. Communist have rules. GOD has rules. So we are all follwing something and guide to living.

A belief in God is not a religion. There is no religion of one. I believe in God. I don't believe in religion. What is religion? Crap...

God has rules? I don't really think so. He made us human and expects us to be human...period. We, as humans, made up the rules as we went along and those in power change them as they feel the need (and create them as they feel the need).

If God has a rule..it is one: Live



Now....JIT, feel free to entertain us with another Novella or three.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


Lastly, I need to comment on this:

everybody has rules. Athiest have rules. Communist have rules. GOD has rules

In this statement, you are putting God on the same level as humans. God is way beyond rules friend. Rules...EVERY rule ever created, was created by a human or group of humans.

Peace to you as well friend.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy

If God has a rule..it is one: Live

Far too incomplete - even if we're just talking of living...

God's rule about life:

- If you keep it, you'll lose it
- Lose it for my sake and you'll have it for eternity.

The 2nd rule about life is not always about getting martyred or something. It could also mean say for example, sacrificing your time, your talents, and resources to benefit others who need help. It could also mean boldly fighting for what is right and just.

ahnggk...

Those are your rules...not God's. Or they are rules created by men that you choose to follow.

To each his or her own....

reply to post by ipsedixit

How do you know? Is that the way that religious people define faith? Belief without evidence. Personally I think there is a little more to it. I think it is more like a "hunch" based on a lot of circumstantial evidence and also trust in those who have come and gone before.

Well if it's based on a hunch, it must be true.

Fact of the matter is that after getting as many evangelicals knocking on my door, for all the things that they disagree with, one thing is universal amongst these people.

"Why do you believe in God?"
"Because the bible says so."
"Why do you believe the Bible?"
"Because god says so."

This is one part of the faith feed-back-loop. The other is when we pray and hear what we believe to be god (Why we would even assume that it is god is beyond me.) that apparent god reinforces what they expect, whether it be "GOD HATES FAGS!" or "Take in the poor" or even "Death to the Jews."

Faith is the arrogant presumption of god, leading to so many claiming that they know god and his mind/heart, personally.

As is virtually everything else invented by man. We didn't tame the horse or invent the automobile because we were such swift and tireless runners ourselves.

But other creations of man do not pretend to be divine. And other facets of man, like science, actually contributes something to society.

I'm wondering why religion is being singled out here as opposed to say

Because this thread is about faith and it's nature. I could make another thread about industrial monopolies, but I don't know anything about them, no first hand experience like religion.

What about all those manifestations and personal conversations with God that one reads about in the Bible? Are you saying that those aren't real incidents or are you saying that you have a "hunch" that they aren't true, that you are taking it on faith that they didn't happen.

It's not on my shoulders to prove that these things didn't happen but of proponents to prove they did. What's more is that I'm not talking specifically about the Bible. Claimed conversations are common to all religions and the same problem emerges where they all contradict each other. "Faith" that these things did in fact happen is not enough, and certainly isn't reason to believe they did.

Religion and the reasons for it's existence are a lot deeper than you think.

Personally, I don't think religion was invented.

Not consciously. The origins of religion and faith is an anthropological story starting off with a few keen observations about the relationships between life and the environment. These relationships were characterised vividly and myths around the representative characters emerged to explain the relationships. But not of it was visible, no one saw Zeus throw lightning bolts, so people took it on faith. In later religions, writings emerged that were taught as fact by the priests and monks and told to be taken on faith.

No document written by human authors should be presumed to be divine. Many claim to be, yet people select which accounts to take on faith, biased towards the religions of our parents and home.

[edit on 9-10-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by spellbound

What is humanity without faith and hope?

Peaceful.

These qualities have got a lot of people through otherwise unbearable situations. Nelson Mandela is a great example. And the bird man of Alcatraz. There are many examples.

Humans are the only animals able to believe in something, and to hope for something - this sets us apart.

I believe that faith and hope, which are inseparable, are to be treasured.

I believe the search for truth and fact to be treasured. Hope and faith are not marks of truth, I had faith and hope in Santa Claus once.


reply to post by Doc Velocity

I disagree. What is central to all religions is the hope of a reward in the afterlife.

Hope in the afterlife is reasonable, oblivion is after all a very daunting idea. I do hope that a god exists, a nice and good god, but hope is not enough to believe as if my wishes were true. That rejection of reality is where hope becomes faith religious thought.

f we were all truly Faithful, the world would be a completely different place.

We'd probably still be hunter-gatherers living around the world like modern tribal peoples. What do you think it is that separates us with these humans? They don't have society, they have community, they do not advance over time. They look at the world and lay their religion over top and do not challenge their views.

They do not have the curiosity and drive to understand the universe regardless of how vastly different it maybe from the current beliefs. Scientific inquiry runs very counter to the truly faithful mind.

I know what the dictionary says about Faith, and the dictionary is sorely lacking in accuracy. That's why the dictionary isn't The Bible.

The bible isn't a book of accuracy either, that's why it's not an historic document.

Well, I suppose a dictionary is a bible to some people, particularly those who accept Man's paltry accumulation of transient knowledge as the only Truth.

Not a truth, but a book of facts, linguistic information. There is only one truth, and man does not know it, and I do not pretend to know it. Instead we try to further our understanding of things.


reply to post by JesusisTruth

Oh really, so you speak for the what billions of religious people who chose God and call them blind? You call us blind, we call you blind, let God decide whos blind and who's not.

Which god? I've never met one.

and as for God needing money. haha LOL, just about every saint in our church was dirt poor, and so were many of the Popes. And the bible teaches the exact opposite, and God NEVER said he needs our money.

No, I quite agree. However, that doesn't stop church leaders from doing the collections religiously (so to speak). If find it truly laughable that people treat religion as a business, because in the end, that's all that it is.

I know a sacrastine in our church, I know for a FACT where the money goes. it goes to homeless shelters and to fix repairs on the roofsa and stuff whch cost thousands of dollars.

He handles the money.

I don't need to donate to a church to be charitable and I don't need to contribute to that middleman when his roof needs fixed.

God never said donate money to me or else. ever. Souls freeley give their money to shelters and repairs, and if the soul steals the money they will pay a huge price.

Maybe, but I would like $100 dollars please.

So you're saying all people who collect collection plates are doing evil with the money?

No, just that it's not needed. And when it's not needed, and people live of it, it's pretty clear why religion right back into classical civilisation, people who were in charge of the church got a fairly cushy life.

so again, it's more statements from a bias mindset. But one thing I am glad of is that you keep the possibilty of God alive in your mind, so kudos to that ..

I can't honestly discount the possibility, so if there is a god and it cares about people, I'm waiting for it to show itself. None of this useless human proxy BS.

I will have my faith. It is hard-earned. My life has been a journey through being unloved as a child to being completely ostracized by my family to marrying into an equally though differently disfunctional family in a xenophobic country on another continent. But somehow I have a wonderful relationship with my magnificent children, I have good friends that I can trust my life with (and vice-versa) and I am able to smile with my heart. I love humanity, flawed though we are. Still, we are perfectly flawed and so adorably flawed/perfect that I love each and every soul here on this gorgeous planet.

I love all things in a way I wish you could begin to understand. Your fear prevents you from understanding. The first steps forward start with courage and love. Follow your heart.

I will have my faith.

Originally posted by Welfhard
I unapologetically have disdain for religious thought.

Thousands of years ago, humans were genuinely looking for understanding. Humans had developed a sense of reason and were puzzled when they applied it to existence of their very finite diskworld. They believed that everything has a reason, perhaps even a purpose, so what was the reason of life? Why did generation after generation pass with no progress being made beyond reproduction?

I unapologetically have disdain for religious thought.

May I ask, do you believe that religiously?

So “reason” was “developed”?

How is it so that they “knew” they had “existence” if their “existence” was prior to their “reason”?

In other words your world view claims there is no God, that religion is most likely man made to satisfy mans needs for “why?” Yet with God removed you wish to now believe that man evolved and then developed “reason” and one day suddenly realized….”Hey, I’m alive!” Being then an empiricist you must please explain how is it that evolved man had the ability to “observe” prior to even having knowledge that he existed? Can you explain or do you know how man evolved reasoning skills? Or have you come to reason that perhaps you may be wrong and need to rethink some things?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
ahnggk...

Those are your rules...not God's. Or they are rules created by men that you choose to follow.

To each his or her own....

I would like to address all of your posts in this thread.

Thank-you for showing that there are still some who can think with common sense. I agree with everything you have said, and if others would actually look at what you said, there can be no disagreement.

Well done..

reply to post by Welfhard

Not a truth, but a book of facts, linguistic information. There is only one truth, and man does not know it, and I do not pretend to know it. Instead we try to further our understanding of things.

You see what happens when world views are not thought out....things like this are stated.

First your signature states that if you claim absolute truth you're wrong.....which is a self refuting statement. Is that statement absolutely true?

Secondly you then claim "There is only one truth" and then claim "man does not know it, and I do not pretend to know it" yet YOU in fact DO claim to know it or else you would not KNOW "There is only one truth"

Again a self refuting statement, hence your world view may then fall into skepticism but then you have to ask how skeptical are you of it?

To claim that Truth is NOT absolute one would have to then be absolutely sure of it, correct? Well that again is self refuting for to deny that Truth exists is to confirm it.

Now we may have many truths.....such as "It's true to me that vanilla ice cream is the best!" Yet this truth is subjective because others may believe that it's not. If I called though a bowl of ice cream "shaving cream" I would be absolutely wrong, even if I believed it to be so. Reality tells us that ice cream is not shaving cream.