Faith is a method of blinding oneself

I unapologetically have disdain for religious thought.



Thousands of years ago, humans were genuinely looking for understanding. Humans had developed a sense of reason and were puzzled when they applied it to existence of their very finite diskworld. They believed that everything has a reason, perhaps even a purpose, so what was the reason of life? Why did generation after generation pass with no progress being made beyond reproduction?

Why?

All around the world, certain ecumenical 'views' arose to fill that need for an answer, all of them were unique to the people that gave rise to them but universally none sufficed. People disagreed and more religions or subdivisions appeared. Dogma soon followed. These imaginative and curious people created stories inspired by vivid dreams, meditation, life experience, embellished oral traditions and drugs. How, from nothing, a deity or deities sculpted the world. These stories were taught to subsequent generations and believed as fact without any real evidence. Faith began.

I unapologetically have disdain for faith.

People now would adopt the belief of their people and told to believe with conviction that regardless of it's criticisms or inherent flaws generating certain contempt for other people who held other, equally devoid of substance beliefs. What started off as a search for understanding, became a force to divide people purely because of the retarding nature of faith, central to the religion.

People may have wondered why, in the past, that nothing was done over the generations beyond reproduction, and now people were prevented from even pondering about it.

Religion is as such a product of human weakness, pride, cult mentality and narcissism that the elders in religion will utilise to stay in power. Faith is not only the blinders that keep us from seeing, it's also the yoke over our shoulders that keep religious leaders in wealth as if the creator of all things needs our money or our servitude and submission. Faith has a certain legacy of anti-intellectualism teaching followers to disagree not because of merit but because whatever the different idea is simply different. There is no progression in faith.

You could take this as a certain atheistic prayer if you like, but not to some distance concept of the all powerful but to your humanity and reason.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by Welfhard]

Why you hitting so hard on religion, it helps alot no matter what you think. I know with what people did to me, its helped me alot.

No one can understand god, but we can have a spiritual life and that inner peace, no matter what religion. Whats wrong with trying to find some truths there.

reply to post by andy1033

No one can understand god, but we can have a spiritual life and that inner peace, no matter what religion. Whats wrong with trying to find some truths there.

Conviction that these beliefs are truths.

Originally posted by Welfhard
I unapologetically have disdain for religious thought.

You made this statement a couple of times in your opening post.

I don't have a problem with it.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want.

I do have a problem with you not allowing others to believe in what they choose to.

Nobody forces you to choose a religion over what you believe in, so, you should respect others to make their own decisions, and or choices.

reply to post by Blanca Rose

I do have a problem with you not allowing others to believe in what they choose to.

That's not what I said. People can believe what they like, but pretending they know some esoteric absolute truth is hardly reasonable.

What's more is that not all beliefs are equal, when some induce extremism, indoctrination and the justification of inhumanity and religious wars. We don't need such thinking.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


I left religion some years ago, telling myself that if there was a real God out there He/She likely hated religion and the division it brings. The other thing I saw was the lack of self-reliance religion seemed to teach with all these priests and ancient books saying "don't trust simple scientific observation, don't even trust your own eyes, only trust in God". I still wonder today how Christians manage to trust so blindly in a God that abandons them on a daily basis, in a being which shows its existence not at all. A God who let's children starve and die of cancer while letting the rich grow richer and more wicked and yet they shrug it off and say "thy will be done".

Honestly though my hate for religion wavered, while it does cause a lot of negative things we cannot deny the psychological power that faith has. Would the human imagination ever have stretched forth to the heavens if we'd believed nothing of interest was up there? No, we believed our gods were up there and so our hearts were captured with wonder and imagination. Cold science cannot do it alone and while it'd be nice to be rid of some of the more tyrannical and bloody side-effects of religion I don't think we should dispose of, or hate, faith.

Originally posted by Welfhard
Faith has a certain legacy of anti-intellectualism teaching followers to disagree not because of merit but because whatever the different idea is simply different. There is no progression in faith.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by Welfhard]

Actually the early Catholic church made many progressions in sciences, art, communication etc. We actually have the Catholic Church to thank for the music of today. The Church standardized musical notation helped create the tritary chords we use today and many other things. In medieval times Monks were scholars and scientists they usually devoted time to studying certain things like astronomy and other sciences. It's only later in the churches history (renaissance) does it seem to halt some of the progression of science.

Also before the crusades architecture was very simple in Europe, after the crusades the people involved brought back ancient knowledge of things like architecture. It was a terrible time and cause for war but it did have it's benefits.

The Egyptians, Sumerians, Greeks, Romans, Europeans all created wonderful things and had faith at the same time. The Pyramids, the Pantheon, the Vatican all of these great buildings and works of art have been created for mans faith.

Does faith have it's downturns? Oh sure, you got the jihads, the crusaders, and what not. But it also has had it's benefits.

Now I'm not a religious person, but I have no problem with faith. I carry faith within myself..I guess you could call it self reliance, but without faith in one's self, I believe it impossible to overcome adversity.

Just my 2-cents

Originally posted by andy1033
Why you hitting so hard on religion, it helps alot no matter what you think.

It helps? Does it pacify your mind with fantasy because you are too lazy to think for yourself and research? Is life easier just to accept some standard answers and go with the mainstream. Have you ever wondered about religious things you have been taught that do not seem logical? Are you too afraid to question the doctrines because you will be cast out and ostracised? That is the way most religions operate.

Originally posted by andy1033
No one can understand god, but we can have a spiritual life and that inner peace, no matter what religion. Whats wrong with trying to find some truths there.

Yes, you can understand "god" if you ask the right questions and aren't too afraid to look for the answers. God is no more than a compilation of deities that require blood ritual sacrifices, and if you didn't have a cow, you might have to give your children.

How do you manage to have inner peace knowing that so many others are destitute, abused, starving, persecuted, oppressed in this world? Do you live a fantasy in your head?

What is wrong with trying to find some truths there? Because there is no truth there. They have twisted and warped every story and they tell you their interpretation of things...just like centuries ago when people were not allowed to read for themselves and only the priest could tell them what the "holy scrolls" said. They deliberately kept people dumbed down and controlled...and fed them what they wanted the people to know. The sheep were very easy to manipulate back then.

Today, the religions still do basically the same thing. It's called psych-ops.
How many times have you heard the story about the "lamb and the lion will lay down together and eat straw"? Guess what! The scriptures actually say "wolf and the lamb"...but all illustrations show a lion instead. This is how easily psych-ops penetrates the brain. This is one of the ways they use to confuse the brain. Images and words sometimes do not mesh. What you see and what you hear are conflicting. No wonder they are called MAGIcians.

Well, faith comes in many forms as the world is not logical or reasonable at all, but is rather understood through a dual perception: that from within and that outside of you, both of which are formed by the society itself. Some people have absolute faith in whatever Science discovers and says, now I am not bad-mouthing science, but being critical of those who accept anything science says without any personal research on the subject matter. Take for instance, the missing link. Many scientists were actually skeptical of the whole thing as I was because it seemed so gimmicky and so unlike what a true scientific discovery is, but I digress.

Faith in matters of religion and spirituality. Atheism is a faith in the absolute denial of any possibility that there could be a deity. There is no certainty and no evidence that you can point to that specifically disproves deities, or the spiritual world. And that is the contradiction - that atheists who wave their intellect is in the air decidedly say they need no evidence to even deny the possibility of the unknown. On the other hand, there is no certainty as to whether there is or are deities. And these come with several contradictions. So you have faith in one or the other and faith is not based on reason, but irrationality. It is irrational to believe either way but you do anyway.

"The retarding nature of faith." That is pure stupidity and goes against your endorsement of intellectualism because you have not really considered all possibilities. And it is obvious you have not studied anything of the sort. You are simply saying faith is a blindfold but you do not understand that that blindfolds comes in many instances. What about faith in love? Faith that your partner will always be there for you, stand up for you. Faith is the blindfold we all put on our eyes in some form or another.


"Religion as a weakness" - again, you are presuming without any real research outside of the negative aspects you want to point out. Religion is very healthy for some people who need spiritual guidance or spirituality to help them emotionally and mentally. The institutions of religion may be evil but who is to say the academic institutions aren't? Did you know that whenever Monsanto wants to get something by that is dangerous to humans - they pay off the scientists and universities in order to get positive back up of their products? And you are putting your faith in those universities as a belief in their honorable duty to their integrity but nope, almost any academia can be bought but I digress.

Religion is no different than any other form in society that cultivate our beliefs and how we see the world. Look at the U.S. government, for instance, it is pro-Israel so any real news about the Islamic world, you may have to go to an alternative, legitimate source. Not only that but guess what? The Palestinians and the Jews actually do get along, despite their differences. It is the Israeli government and the "terrorist" groups that keep them divided. My point is that you criticize religion but not any other aspects of society that keeps people divided.

"Faith has a legacy of anti-intellectualism" You might want to tell that to the Muslims who were responsible for translating the Greek and Roman texts and keeping them when they were neglected by the Europe, and also the many other things that we have to be grateful for the Islamic world brought to us such as hospitals, consistently bathing (Europeans did not bathe that often), etc. You have done no factual research on religion on your own and not what you have been told. This is simply a rant. And it is precisely you contradicting yourself in that you criticize faith and promote intellectualism but without understanding fully what you are criticizing, you are being hypocritical.

And you say that religion keep its leader wealthy. Of course, religion at that level is a product to be sold, but so anything else at that national level. Do we not live in a society that tells us to buy, buy, buy, to consume and not to save, but to save by buying? Anyway, bad religious leaders do not mean the people themselves below are not truthful or decent or honestly believe in their faith.

Lastly, by even denying faith and denouncing religion and spirituality as "retarding" you are actually putting faith in that you are right because you have no certainty nor proof. Nice rant though.

Like so many others I've seen here, you are making a statement based on an untruth.

While it is true that there are many people that choose not to examine what they are told and prove it correct to themselves, there are those within religion that love a challenge and enjoy defending their beliefs.

I am one of these people. I believe in God, am a Christian but have many ideas about Creation, spirituality and the universe that would shock my church peers. Are my ideas true? Perhaps, perhaps not but they help me understand the more confusing things in the universe.

Can people who believe in science be the same way? Yes!

I tell you this. Anyone that believes what is told for them without searching for their own truth is a fool. Whether it is a matter of faith or science.

I have proved for myself that God exists. Have you proved He doesn't or do you just scoff at the people that believe in God and call them fools?

Just as not haven any helps you to walk str8 into the flames REMEMBER YOU WILL FEEL THE BURN BEFORE YOU EVEN SEE IT FOR THIS SMH.

This is a very similar thread to what i have been posting.


I'm not going to get too involved in this one, but what I think is key in the thread and all threads in this section of ATS is definitions of what we are talking about.


There's spiritual, faith, and religion. none of which should be confused as the same, although they connect.

Religion is man made which leads it very open to debate. Faith is what and how much you believe in something, but it does not mean you are closes to other truths and spirituality is the root of religion. For me it encompasses the soul, being honest with oneself and upholding a personal set of morals and values.

reply to post by asmall89

Does faith have it's downturns? Oh sure, you got the jihads, the crusaders, and what not. But it also has had it's benefits.

Do the ends justify the means?

We are at a cross roads in history now where science and faith are becoming heated with there disagreements, the two are not easy to reconcile. Now we are learning that we simply don't need a faith to be peaceful and happy and certainly not to advance ourselves. The baggage of faith is needless now.

all a faithful 1 such as myself can say is YOU ALL SHALL SEE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU CALL SCIENCE IS THE FAILURE CAUSED FROM EATING FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE FIRST AND NOT THE TREE OF LIFE FIRST. You were supposed to eat from the TREE OF LIFE FIRST TO INSURE LONGEVITY IN PASSING DOWN CLEAR FIRM KNOWLEDGE INSTEAD OF RELYING ON BOOKS FROM AFAR WRITTEN BY SOME UNKNOWN WRITERS WHO COULD ADD AND SUBTRACT FROM THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE.



[edit on 10/1/09 by Ophiuchus 13]

There's a common misconception at play here about the very definition of the word "faith". Most equate it to "blind faith" which is it's own thing altogether.

Faith is not blind. Faith does not require you to surrender belief without proof.

Faith is a decision making protocol that is utilized when a lack of immediate data is present. Yet it's foundation is a broader pool of knowledge that precedes the decision making moment.

Example: I'm standing at the top of a burning building. My only escape is to leap to the ground below, yet I can't see through the smoke what awaits me. My brother has called me on a cell phone to assure me that a safe landing awaits. This is where faith comes into play. Do I trust my brother? I don't have the immediate data to safely reason out this dilemma for myself. I must put my faith in my brother's word. The evidence that my brother's word is true lies in our history together. He's proven himself trustworthy in the past, therefore my faith in him is unshakable, solid, and far from being "blind". At this point it is faith that compels me to act. And saves my life.

Faith is a higher function than reason.

Faith in God is no different. It doesn't require blind submission. The proof is presented. It's there for anyone to see.

That's a whole other thread, though.

reply to post by Alpha Arietis


Well said.

Blind faith is foolish, absurd and usually does nobody much any good.

Faith is a necessity for the progression of humanity. Without faith, intuition would be nonexistent. Without intuition, not much progression would be had.

but pretending they know some esoteric absolute truth is hardly reasonable.

Who says I'm pretending?

edit: also, I did'nt have time to read that wall of text just yet, I was too busy readin' the bible lol. And briefly, what does that video say? Organized religion blows? Yeah I get it, there are only about 93 billion threads.

[edit on 4-10-2009 by Centurionx]

Welfhard , YO , just dropped in to "chew the fat"

I am sure you are softening a little bit ,
did you say , "as if the CREATOR of all things".......?


contemporary religions' probably do disappoint GOD a bit
but I'm sure HE has a plan to restore some sanity to this world.


otherwise ... we're pretty much gonna follow "the program"

Entertaining. The OP is entertaining, I am bemused by it. I didn't watch the YouTube links so much as I listened to them, and I'm wondering what is with this soundtrack? This mecha-industrial background music is supposed to be conveying what atmosphere, what emotion? I dunno, it sounds stressful.

But what I see immediately is that the OP is confusing Faith with Religion.

Big No No

Faith is not the same as belief, either. Beliefs frequently change with the acquisition of new data. Just listen to the politicians who start every sentence with an authoritative "I believe..." followed by a bunch of mumbo jumbo bullshít. Next week they'll do a complete about-face and "believe" something else. This sort of ambiguity has cheapened the word "belief," so it really doesn't mean anything anymore. So let's not confuse belief with Faith.

Faith is not religion, okay? Faith exists in everyone, it predates religion. Even an atheist can have faith. I know, because I was an atheist for damned near a third of my life, and I finally gave up atheism as the dead-end, staring-at-your-navel minority cult that it is.

Faith is a state of mind. Faith is knowing without having to be convinced. It is a transcendental certainty. Faith never acknowledges the possibility of failure, so it cannot be attacked and needn't be defended. Faith is the ultimate but seldom-attained objective of all serious religions.

So, based on that definition of Faith, you might say, "There are damn few truly Faithful theists out there," and you'd be right. I've been alive 48 years, have lived with and around Christians my whole life, and I think I can count the number of truly Faithful Christians that I've ever known on the fingers of one hand. They're an extremely rare breed, but if you ever met one you'd know it.

— Doc Velocity