"Free Polanski" = Liberals gone crazy

reply to post by Aeons


Having to live in culturally backward Europe would be punishment for me!

The inhumanity of it all!

Oh much suffering must this poor unfortunate man undergo before some measure of decency and pity is granted?

Originally posted by kosmicjack

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Moral Relativism is not a weakness of the right, its a weakness of the left.

Wrong. It's a weakness of extremism in general

[edit on 30/9/2009 by kosmicjack]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Thats not moral relativism, thats moral absolutism, which is another problem altogether.

Moral absolutism says "X is right, Y is wrong, period!!!"

Moral relativism says "Nothing is inherently right or wrong"

Both stances are problematic and responsible for a great amount of stupidity.

IMO You are faltering on the "relativism" thing...

I agree with Kosmi...moral relativism is not a "Liberal" or "Conservative" Phenomena despite the typical rhetoric.

Conservatives are fierce proponents of traditional rights and freedom and wary of over-reaching government....and yet....

When perceived "Liberals" were protesting the 1st and 2nd Iraq wars the "Conservatives" were front and center and very quick to claim that particular "freedom" of speech as "encouraging the terrorists" and being "anti-American"...

Yet...now suddenly they are all about freedom of speech and defending the "rights" of protesters...even to bring firearms to political events...

The Dixie Chicks nearly being run out of the music industry for knocking Bush during a concert..."Unpatriotic"..."Endangering our troops, by encouraging the enemy"...

Joe Wilson, the very man who shouted "Liar" during the Presidential address to Congress?...He tried to pass a bill in NC demanding the Dixie Chicks Apologize...A BILL for cripes sake...but when he wants to shout names AT THE PRESIDENT during an internationally televised speech....where is the conservative rhetoric "respecting the office" and "encouraging our enemies" "endangering our troops?

Suddenly the same conservatives who disdained "Liberal" dissent and perceived "disrespect" of the presidential office are shamelessly likening the POTUS to hitler????

Isn't the repeated argument of "we plan on treating Obama just as the Liberals treated Bush" just one great rhetorical cist of moral relativism?

I could go on...but you get the point...

Lengthy excerpt, but the article helped crystalize my thoughts on the matter and how I feel about great artists who do unforgiveable things.

Michael Jackson, John Phillips (Mama's and the Papa's Founder), Phil Spector, Polanski...is it difficult to enjoy their "Genius" in light of their actions?

www.npr.org...

....the Year Of The Fan's Discomfort.

The latest example, of course, is Sunday's arrest of Roman Polanski, which once again puts the director's past front and center in the public imagination. Before that, former teen star Mackenzie Phillips went on Oprah and told the world that her father, Mamas and the Papas leader John Phillips, had sex with her when she was 19. Earlier in the summer, meanwhile, iconic record producer Phil Spector earned a sentence of 19 years to life -- for murder.

And in each instance, there's a thorny question lurking behind the news reports: "How can I listen to his music, or watch his movies, in light of this?"

Difficult questions, after the jump.

Each of the above-mentioned men has contributed immensely to his field: Polanski is one of the great film directors, Spector arguably rock 'n' roll's greatest producer, and Phillips pere the shepherd not only of one of the great groups of the '60s folk-rock explosion but also of the Monterey Pop Festival, which helped turn Jimi Hendrix and the Who into superstars.

Chinatown doesn't cease to be one of the best films of the 1970s just because its director pleads guilty to a heinous crime. Honor him for his artistry, and then make him stand trial to face the legal ramifications of his actions. Both are no less than what he deserves.[/b]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Lillydale
No, I have read your posts but I have yet to see your credentials.

My credentials?

End of discussion with you, its not worth my precious time.

I know, it really sucks when someone calls you out on your BS doesn't it? I ask for credentials because you cite your own posts as if they hold water in proving other things you say. Just because you posted stuff, does not make that correct. You are grasping at straws and particularly wrong.

For one thing, you are assuming that you know the intent behind every child rape. You know why they do it on the left and why they do it on the right and it is for two different reasons.

Let me follow your logic here. The left will justify it because they see childrape as something akin to shades of gray. Am I close yet?

Righties will justify childrape because they know it is just plain wrong.

Feeding a 13 year old girl drugs, champagne, and then having unconstitutional sex with her is just plain wrong. Are trying to justify the right and demonize the left for the same crime?

Originally posted by pavil
Hmmm..... why is it that there are no conservative actors, directors, movie honcho's that are supporting Polanski then? They are actors, thus they must support him, no? I don't think your arguement holds water, quite frankly. Those that support him in Hollywood are those of a liberal/left bent, not just because they are "Hollywood" too.

Hmmmmm, good point. There are no football players on that list either, what does that tell you? Hollywood is going to defend the man. Hollywood also happens to be vastly more left than the rest of the country. I went over this already. Like I said, when it was Mark Foley only politicians stuck up for him. They also happened to all be Republican but lets not split hairs. Hollywood supports this man. Hollywood is made up of lefties. There are lefties all over the country. Only Hollywood is defending him, not the left.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by pavil

 

Yes my friend when the girl wilfully and deliberately lies about her age and probably every other fact relating to the case it is unfortunate indeed.

What dangled webs we weave when we first practice to deceive!

You probably led a pretty sheltered life at 13, I didn't, and age is no indication of innocense or lack of desire or intent.

The girl wasn't kidnapped that's for certain.

I think Tracy Lourdes is a good example. At 15 she had a fake ID and lied her butt off to work in the porn industry and her coworkers almost unanimously said they never once doubted her age by the way she carried herself, performed, and looked.

On the other hand...this girl was brought to Polanski's house by her mother. The girl did not steal an ID and hop a bus. She trusted her mom to keep her safe. She trusted this man not to drug her. Sadly, she was twice wrong. Good point though.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Typical. Those who prey on children seem to, more often than not, view themselves as having some elevated awareness. And they always paint those of us who don't want them having sex with children as being intolerant puritans, who blindly follow authority. Give it a rest. You're an open book. A disgusting, open book. I'm sure you've been practicing that spiel for a while, in case Chris Hansen ever asked you to pull up a chair. I wonder, if we were to link this thread to all your anti-government threads, if all the good old boys starring them would turn on you. Like when Bruno started making out with that guy at the cage fighting match. Anyway, i'm sick of your broken record defense of this child rapist. No need for another long winded diatribe. I know your position, it's very clear.

reply to post by maybereal11

Michael Jackson, John Phillips (Mama's and the Papa's Founder), Phil Spector, Polanski...is it difficult to enjoy their "Genius" in light of their actions?

It is amazing who we think of as geniuses these days,

What of, Beethoven, Bach, Longfellow, Michelangelo? Poe?


I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.
Edgar Allan Poe

And let us above all else ner to forget, William of Ockham.

Yes, well apparently one cannot be talented, or smart or a good leader without stoking the fire of ingenuity with bodies of other people.

I shall leave you all with this sad yet true story.

One day in 1981 I was walking down Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood, Los Angeles California when not 20 paces in front of me a man made a mad dash across the street from the far curb to my side of the sidewalk and began to quickly walk away from me in the same general direction I was.

Within split seconds an hysterical woman emerged from a building at the other side of the street from whence the man had come and began yelling “Rape, rape, that man raped me, somebody stop him, stop him” as she pointed to the man who had darted across the street.

Another passer by coming from the opposite direction of me heard her pleas and bravely grabbed the man who immediately began resisting and protesting “No it’s not like that let me go”. The woman kept standing on the other side of the street screaming stop him, hold him he raped me, so loud in fact within seconds two cars driving down the street stopped on either side of the street and the drivers of those cars hopped out to join the other man and boxing him in. He still kept protesting and saying “No it’s not true, let me go, let me go” and tried to break free of them. Within a few more seconds one of the men had wrestled him to the ground and one of the others reached down and began punching him while the other two men began to kick him. The woman who had accused him stood sobbing and shaking her head on the other side of the street. Within moments several more people passing by stopped and inquired not sure whether to rescue the man or not and were told “He raped that woman over there” and they too began kicking and punching the man.

I tried 3 times to wade in and stop it telling people “Look we don’t know, he’s innocent until proven guilty in a court of law stop hitting and kicking him he’s not going anywhere”. Three times the growing crowd rebuffed me and then finally threatened me by saying “Look man either join us give this _________what he deserves, or butt out or you are going to join him on the ground”. It was a violent and ugly mob of about a dozen or more people at this point.

By the time the West Hollywood Sheriffs showed up two minutes later the man had already been beaten to death as the various members of the crowd got their last kicks and punches in as the lone Sheriff’s Deputy waded in to the crowd and caused it to disperse.

A few people lingered and told the Deputy “He’s a rapist trying to flea” the Deputy replied “Well he’s a dead rapist right now and not going anywhere that’s for sure”, the woman came over and then shared the ugly and shocking truth.

The man was no rapist at all but the woman’s husband and she confessed she had only cried rape because he was fleeing their home to buy crack coc aine with the family’s grocery money and all she could think of in her desperation to stop him was to “Cry Rape”. That she did, and her husband lay dead before at her feet for the effort courtesy of an ugly unthinking mob acting out mob rule and vengeance.

Would a woman cry rape for other reasons than being raped? They surely would and do.

As the lone voice of reason that day I tried to save a man’s life from being taken from him on the merits of what might have been and turned out to be an entirely baseless accusation. As importantly I tried to save 15 lost and unthinking souls from having to forever after live with the fact that they were all guilty and culpable of an even worse crime called murder.

All Skyfloating has done is to evoke that same unthinking mob mentality here in this thread, to play just like that woman did that fateful day on the deeply instilled emotions of others.

For that’s all the reactions of the mob were, was emotional ones, they were not based in logic or rational thought just an angry need to prematurely dispense blind justice.

Skyfloating is no dummy in fact he is a brilliant man and I will not speculate as to what his motives were for appealing for mob justice in this case, in this venue, but it is simply an appeal for angry emotionally driven mob justice and while one reasonable and extenuating point after another has been put forth by me on this thread just like that emotional and deadly mob that day the notion of these things will not be allowed to supersede the very same type of primitive emotional responses that they decry in the crime itself.

Some one has to speak to reason and compassion and consideration and against the dangers of mob justice for most of you responding in this thread are advocating mob justice of a far more excessive degree than even the Law of the Land allows or calls for.

Some one has to speak to mob rule, and some one has to speak to Justice being carried out based on the facts and the true harm and the true dangers that the crime represents and against mob rule.

The consequences of not doing so can and do turn innocent men into dead men and otherwise good men into murderers.

ATS’s motto is denying ignorance and not promoting it. I suggest you all take a good look in the mirror and try to be honest for once.

Justice itself true justice has already been served in this case for the victim by the victim's own admission.

The justice that you now want is mob justice for your selves.

I rest my case.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I was four, four years old,

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Good point about the ineffectiveness of mob justice. Unfortunately, every time someone rapes or molests or kills, the first instinct of people online is to react in a violent manner ("I would kill that nut", "I'd castrate them", "I'd pour acid on them") and that's nothing but irrational and proves that we live in a society that ENCOURAGES such reactions.

reply to post by 27jd


My friend you take ignorance to a new level! If you can't focus on the case and the argument you probably are not doing yourself or anyone any favors by partaking in it.

This is about whether real justice has been served or not, whether real justice and resitution has been made to the victim.

There is no denying that because as a mature woman in her 40's she has clearly stated she feels it has.

All you are in fact is advocating an ugly form of vengeful mob rule and justice and if anyone should be sickened friend it is I.

I though just feel sorry for you because I am human and have compassion and love for everyone.

All I am advocating for is that everyone think for themselves and not as a programed mob.

I know that's a lot to ask for intellectually from some people and morally from some people, but I do it all the same.

There is a karmic wheel in life friend, you might one day want to better consider what you ask for because you just might get it.

You have a nice day.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


BS. That's all i have to say to that story. BS.

And you can stop referring to me as friend, nothing could be further from reality. Except maybe your BS story.



[edit on 30-9-2009 by 27jd]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by maybereal11

 

Michael Jackson, John Phillips (Mama's and the Papa's Founder), Phil Spector, Polanski...is it difficult to enjoy their "Genius" in light of their actions?

It is amazing who we think of as geniuses these days,

What of, Beethoven, Bach, Longfellow, Michelangelo? Poe?

I was thinking contemporary "Genius" and not neccessarily speaking of personal opinion, but rather public.

Historically and in my personal opinion your examples more than qualify as well.

Only, being convicted by a court of law and then fleeing isn't being beaten on the street without any trial.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


This is not an advocacy for child rape or sex with children as another poster pointed out Tracy Lords did in fact begin performing in porno movies at 15 with a fake ID because she wanted to.

No one that Tracy lied to appreciated the fact that she did because they all became guilty of Statuatory Rape and Kiddie Porn because of her lies.

This case has ellements that are far different than an abduction a kidnapping and a forced act of pedophillia on a helpless minor who doesn't want to be involved as someone who identifies themselves as a minor who doesn't want to be involved.

This case is a case as all cases are based on what happened then and there not to you, not to me, not what we imagine or want to believe in our minds.

When Justice works in that fashion it is no justice at all.

Not for anyone including the victims or the people.

I am sorry that you suffered those things but it is an apple to oranges type of situation StormDancer.

Had this been a predatory and knowing act of child abuse and rape I would be all for the maxium allowable penalty allowed by the law and I have stated that earlier in the thread.

The point is to we dispense justice and consider what justice is on emotion or logic and fact and the particular circumstances?

Everyone is advocating for justice based on emotion and not examining the particular circumstances or factoring them in, and I feel that is wrong.

I am both man enough to speak to the truth, and man enough to not care what lengths others might go to in regards to me because they find the truth to mature for their emotions.

Thanks.

reply to post by 27jd


That's a true story my friend, I would have no reason to make up such an occurence.

You are my friend, you just have a hard time being a friend to yourself is all.

I don't hold it against you though.

I know the truth is a difficult thing for people to bear.

The truth shall set you free though, no need to fear it, you can handle it friend.

Justice has already been served in this case as far as the victim is concerned and if she is satisfied so am I.

reply to post by maybereal11



I was just trying to lighten the mood.


Proto, I am trying to digest all that you have posted, I'm thinking, and that can be dangerous.

[edit on 113030p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I post what I post as always to get people to think and respond instead of reacting.

The Powers that Be in fact don't believe most people are capable of thought, true intelligent and rational thought and that's why they always couch their manipulations in emotional appeals.

People are not uniform (not yet anyway) circumstances are not uniform, crimes are not uniform, and as such Justice should not be uniform but tailored specifically to the precise people and circumstances involved otherwise it's not justice at all Stormdancer.