I am a German

Yep, I don't think we should ever help a country that asks for our help again unless it is in our interest. Considering all some of these countries and people do is bitch about us.

Originally posted by nyeff

Control the water ( Iraq means land of water, or some such translation), control the world oil market's ( sell cheap...hurt Russia, sell expensive ...hurt Japan, EU) and cause a humanitarian crisis.....this is righteous?

Geez BT you really believe all this wild speculation don't you.They said the same think thing during the Gulf War.Yet none of this has come to pass.

Of course I do, I'm much more educated on the subject than you care to be!

Let's put or 'speculations' side by side, noting the fact that the World's Fossil fuels have about 30-50 years at current levels and that water is becoming scarce:

nyeff:

1) This is an altruistic venture by the US to stop a tyrant
2) We are not looking to profit by these actions
3) We will install democracy
4) We will control the resources for the Iraqi people

Bout Time:

1) US/UK oil interests will control the World's #2 Oil producer, effectively gutting OPEC
2) The excile government being put together in Washington has already stated that when the US installs them, the US will be first and foremost at the trough....to the exclusion of what Count Dracula ( Rumsfeld) calls old Europe
3) We will be entrenched in Iraq forever; democracy won't take hold if it's not won by the people through Civil War. A military government, run by the US, will be the only thing capable of keeping order. We've been in Korea for nearly 60 years....you think we'll be out of Iraq in two?
4) Water in the desert is power. Oil, as is anything with a finite supply, is power. You can't be naive enough to think we'll walk away from control of both!?!? Look at a map and Check where the Tigris flows...then check to see how close it is to out sattelite country..Israel.

Sure it is nice and convenient that we'll be 'first at the trough' etc. It's just that you have a pessimistic view on things, thinking our motives are the worst, while others like me think the opposite. You think that is the main motive while the liberation, protection of our country stuff is just a front. While I think the opposite, that the main motives are the ones they are giving, while all of those things you mention are real nice to have, and a nice incentive. Heck we are helping that country, why should anyone else be first at the trough?

Of course I do, I'm much more educated on the subject than you care to be!

I'm sorry BT,but I don't consider speculation to be educated.

Are we going to remove Saddam... Yes..
Yes the US will profit.But not to the extent you think.If we just took all the oil and undermine OPEC that would cause another war.I think we would rather have the Middle East stable.
I think the Iraqi government will control its resources not the US.Again for stability.
How are the Iraqis going to fight a civil war?About the only weapons they have are stones.Saddam always has and will kill any who oppose him.Talk about a massacre.

Shady:
Regardless of politics, The US has been a capitalistic power since the country began and that's what drives our politics & action on the global stage, regardless of who is president. The only difference is that Bush is not trying to pretend otherwise, current lipservice aside.

nyeff:
we take out Iraq, then Syria & Iran as has been spoken of. The largest military power in the region is Israel. We're the largest global military power multiple times over the next 25 on the list. England will be on our hip the whole way. So tell me......who is going to 'War' with that!?!
Iraq could have had regime change through Civil War, against a much stronger Saddam, if Bush the 1st didn't back out of supporting the Kurds & Shiite factions at the last moment, leaving them to be slaughtered.
A rebel force this time would have full backing. Republican fantasy peddlers talk about the Iraqi people laying down their arms and cheering a US invasion. BullShyte! Someone takes it to your door, you fight till one of you stops breathing. But, if you cripple his infrastructure and give arms, ordnance & support....Iraqis will join THAT parade in a heart beat & no one will stand with Saddam. Everyone that's a second banana to Saddam stays only because there is no better game in town; they'll all improve there lot and be running the show. What's Saddam going to offer them, " fight with me to the last in a bunker"?

Posted by Bout Time
Iraq could have had regime change through Civil War, against a much stronger Saddam, if Bush the 1st didn't back out of supporting the Kurds & Shiite factions at the last moment, leaving them to be slaughtered.
A rebel force this time would have full backing. Republican fantasy peddlers talk about the Iraqi people laying down their arms and cheering a US invasion. BullShyte! Someone takes it to your door, you fight till one of you stops breathing. But, if you cripple his infrastructure and give arms, ordnance & support....Iraqis will join THAT parade in a heart beat & no one will stand with Saddam.

Bush snr in my opinion did make a mistake in not supporting the uprisings in the North or the South. Why Gen Swcharzkopf allowed armed Iraqi attack choppers in the no-fly zones ( which made the difference between victory and defeat ) is a mystery. Or maybe not, there were no leaders who could guarantee the integrity of the Iraqi state. If support had been given to the Kurd's in the north, then more than likely they would have tried to have form their own state. This would have left Iran the dominant military power in the Persian Gulf. The Iranians were ( and still are ) fearful of Saddam and what he's capable of doing.

And as far as killing ten's of thousands of civilians, this could very well be far from the truth, due to the various non-lethal technologies ( ie. BLU-114 Blackout Bomb, EMP weapons etc ) which would be employed.

As far as Iraqi's welcoming the conquering heroes.....maybe. The peoples in the north and the south of Iraq have long been opressed by Saddam. A US led invasion offers them hope ( and pretty much guarantees them ) for a better life. The Iraqi's in the central part of the country maybe a tougher nut to crack. But as in the first Gulf War, the Iraqi's are all talk before battle, but when they taste US firepower their resolve vanishes. This would be all the more terrifying to these male Iraqi civilians who want to fight, especially as they would have never had a taste of a modern battlefield.

[Edited on 20-2-2003 by mad scientist]

Originally posted by observer
Also it peeves some people that the German's cast a facade of pacifism but they are willing to sell weapons to the highest bidder.

I thought USA was doing the same. We at Spain are still touchy about that Korean ship our Armada stopped on command of USA intel for covertly carrying missiles, only to see that ship depart unharmed after USA forces inspected it *because the missile shipments was to be delivered to a 'friendly' country* (Sudanese if I don't remember wrong).

Originally posted by MakodFilu
I thought USA was doing the same. We at Spain are still touchy about that Korean ship our Armada stopped on command of USA intel for covertly carrying missiles, only to see that ship depart unharmed after USA forces inspected it *because the missile shipments was to be delivered to a 'friendly' country* (Sudanese if I don't remember wrong).

Why is Spain touchy ? It's better to be safe than sorry, especially in the climate we're living in.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
And I feel the same about them. To heck with their opinion as we are the primary target, not them. They, on the other hand, will be found out to have commercial reason not to want Iraq attacked. I'll bet you evidence will be found in Iraq that will shed bad light on our former allies. But, when more attacks come against the U.S., it won't be any skin off the noses found in Berlin or Paris. Therefore, I don't give two hoots in Hades what they think. If I were king of this nation, though, I'd remember their attitude toward this situation and when they needed a hand again....

You will find evidence of any thing you want, or if not, blame them anyway.

Yeah, Saddam is a dictator, so was Pinochet. Yeah, Iraq is armed, as *any* other country. You were searching for real proofs about Iraq. You didn't find one. Still you will attack anyway.

No, really: I don't think you have the rights now. You are going to war because you *wanted* that war. Period.

I don't buy you are going to make of Iraq a democracy. USA plan is putting a puppet government under USA government: A great democracy I see.

Months ago there wasn't as many Saddam followers as you made possible these days. Iraq was barely a threat before declaring war against them. Now, calling upon self-defense, there are a lot of people willing to die for Saddam, people that months ago were not willing to.

Quien siembra vientos, cosecha tempestades.

[Edited on 2003-2-21 by MakodFilu]

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by MakodFilu
I thought USA was doing the same. We at Spain are still touchy about that Korean ship our Armada stopped on command of USA intel for covertly carrying missiles, only to see that ship depart unharmed after USA forces inspected it *because the missile shipments was to be delivered to a 'friendly' country* (Sudanese if I don't remember wrong).

Why is Spain touchy ? It's better to be safe than sorry, especially in the climate we're living in.

We are touchy because USA forces let them leave. USA risked the lives of our troops, for nothing.

Wrong, Mako, there is proof, and there is plenty of reason to kill Hussein and remove that threat. Thing is, you aren't the target and you aren't at risk. That is why I couldn't care less about your opinion, or France's or Germany's, or anybody else's. Pay attention, we hadn't declared war on anybody before 11 September but there are still alot of dead people. Your logic is flawed and your position is moot. Regardless, we will do what is necessary with or without other nations, even without those nations that we have stood with or for in the past. At the end of the day, only the moronic will not think that the cause was just. At the end of the day, the entire world will be a better and safer place, not that I care. At the end of the day, the Iraqi people will be better off, not that it effects me. At the end of the day, my family and friends will be safer and that does concern me.

Posted by Thomas Crowne:
"At the end of the day, the entire world will be a better and safer place, not that I care. At the end of the day, the Iraqi people will be better off, not that it effects me. At the end of the day, my family and friends will be safer and that does concern me."

I really don't understand how the world and the US people will be safer with Saddam Hussein out of power.
I agree he's a tyrant, but simple logic will tell you that ousting him and killing muslims will just create more terrorist groups such as Al-Queada.

Our own US government has admitted that attacking Iraq increases the threat of terrorist attacks on US soil.

Even 30 years down the road, the increase of terrorist attacks will still be high. So, what's the point of this war?

I think if the US truly wants to stop terrorism, we should spend the billions of dollars a day on this current military buildup on education, rather than military spending.

If you are somewhat educated, you will see that fighting terrorism with war, will only create more terrorists.

But, what do I know? I'm just a meaningless, uneducated citizen.

Bout time number one, the number two slots in relation to oil is Russia, which can produce as much oil as the Saudis (check your facts). As far as water is concerned the only real issue with that is free trade. And the lowering of tariffs, taxes and all the other issues which are caused by bad relations. Do you seriously believe that Arab nations would provide property to the US for launching an attack if the felt it was not in their best interests?

You want to claim the US is totally responsible for what is happening on the other side of the planet? That's baloney and you now why. Because the other side of the planet has been doing business with each other, much longer than the US has ever existed. This is not about formalities this is about realities. And in reality those in power in the Eastern Hemisphere have been doing business which each other for thousands of years.

This is about them, their point of view. What went wrong? They interfered with our day to day lives (9/11). And you know what, caring about how its going to change the way they lead their lives is not a priority

If all those weapons came from the US, Saddam would be presenting at least half of them, but they are not from the US. And as a result Mr. Hussein who has had to purchase technology from Germany and recources from France is dancing his last dance.

You know who comes next, Columbia and you know why? Because that is what is going on Bout Time. You see Bout time the game is over. And the priorities do not relate to a 5-year plan, they go much further.

What the German government cannot admit is that before the walls fell, organized crime in East Germany was a part of the government (formally). If they admit that, then they will have to engage in substantial changes. In relation to who they claim to deserve trust.


The only reason Russia could not produce as much oil as Saudi Arabia is because of the power of the Russian Mob, that authority is no longer an issue. And the evidence is clear by virtue of North Koreas request that an oil pipeline be built between Russia and North Korea.

Do you know who is playing the role of whore of Babylon in this conflict? I will tell you this is not the United States.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne...[ranting suppressed]...At the end of the day, the entire world will be a better and safer place, not that I care. At the end of the day, the Iraqi people will be better off, not that it effects me. At the end of the day, my family and friends will be safer and that does concern me.

(...don't get me started about that 'Iraqi people will be better with an USA military government').

At the end of the day you will find the war you are going to fight to prevent terrorims will give them wings. Terrorism was a problem, indeed, but now it's even worst because the flawed exterior diplomacy of USA. Even if you win that war, you will loose in the medium/ long term.

Go straight for war, it doesn't matter if you win or loose or whatever. The damage is already done.

At the end of the day... well, it will be the End of Days, cause terrorism will go boom without control.

Please, don't think you are the only place treated. We in Canary Islands are under risk of 'friendly' Marocco invasion. Anti-christianism is uprising there. Please, *stop* this madness... now!

Originally posted by Toltec
...
If all those weapons came from the US, Saddam would be presenting at least half of them, but they are not from the US. And as a result Mr. Hussein who has had to purchase technology from Germany and recources from France is dancing his last dance.

Weapons? What weapons? Purchased with what money? With the money Irak is commanded to pay as indemnizations to Kuwait? With the petroleum Irak needs to interchange for food?

Oh, yeah, they sure purchased weapons, but to wich extent? To the extent to completely replace the 80% weapons destroyed during the Gulf War? (not to forget after the war, 90% of remaining weaponry was destroyed as well).

Cheap chemichal weapons? Almost *any* country in the world has chemichal weapons capacity.

Wake up, guys. Looking for foreign conspiracies and you are blind to see the ones being forged in your own country.

Excuse me MakodFilu but those weapons were purchased long before the Kuwaiti conflict. If memory serves that occured in 1992. The wall fell in Germany
in 1984? Perhaps if you would stop making excuses for yourself you would actually get some work done.

Originally posted by Toltec
Excuse me MakodFilu but those weapons were purchased long before the Kuwaiti conflict. If memory serves that occured in 1992. The wall fell in Germany
in 1984? Perhaps if you would stop making excuses for yourself you would actually get some work done.

The Wall fell in 1989, Kuwait invasion was in 1990, Gulf war in 1991.

If you were thinking before posting you will realize even USA was selling weapons to Irak back in 1984.

[Edited on 2003-2-22 by MakodFilu]

Actually my father died in 1985 he was alive an well when the wall fell (in germany) lying about it does not help either

it's called the Tag der Deutschen Einheit. The wall came down November of 89'.

[Edited on 22-2-2003 by Grommer]

You Yanks make me sick!


Bush is a megalomaniac and the American people, well most, are sheep being lead to the slaughter.

Because other countries don't want to fight or get involved in an unjust war you condemn them and label them with being part of the "AXIS OF EVIL" you will even do your best to hurt them.

You want to go to war, a holy war with 1/3 of the world's population, for what? Oil and the supremacy of the world seems to me to be the main reason, all under the disguise of fighting against world terrorism.
All we have to do is look back at America's history to see weather you are a nation worthy of this honour.
You tell us that Iraq helped to fund Al- Quieda. You funded and protected the IRA for decades (for which allot of us Brits hate you for) and you condemned Britain about it human rights violations in regards to IRA prisoners.
You helped to put most of these so-called evil dictators into power.
You sell them arms, you sell them the technology to build chemical and biological weapons.
You developed and used chemical weapons in a theatre of war (Vietnam, Agent Orange) even killing your own men on the ground and has still left the jungle dead and birth disorders are still in common place.
You build and sell weapons of mass destruction of which a large part of your economy is funded from. You are the only nation to use nuclear weapons on another country (Japan).
You have ethnically cleansed your country from its native people.
You gain your country independence with terror.
Your human rights records stink.
Your CIA in the interest of the American people has funded more terrorist organisations the Iraq and Afghanistan put together.
You use the same gas that you condemned the Germans for using to kill large numbers of people in Death camps of WWII, and they were not just Jews that died, yet you use this gas to gas your own people when you execute them.
You fund the Israelis and sell them arms so they can murder and repress innocent Palestinian people
I could go on but I want to keep this post as short as possible.
You are not worthy of this honour. So tell us, the rest of the World, why we should help you with the war against Iraq. The term died under friendly fire was termed just for you Americans, Britain had sustained more deaths from the US in the form of friendly fire during 'Dessert Storm' then from the Iraqis themselves so is it no wonder no one wants to fight along side you. I hope Bush and his WAR MACHINE really gets their arses kick like you did with the Vietnam War.
Bush and the American government are the AXIS OF EVIL and they will get us all killed.