Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth.

reply to post by Common Good


You see the word prejudice, and you immediately think racism? That's on you, bud, not on me. If you want a way out of the discussion, just move on. Oh no! I just wrote move on! I must be a liberal agitator!

reply to post by dooper


You mean drugs, right? It brings to mind the whole staring into the abyss thing. If we stoop to such methods, we make ourselves no better than those we fight. We lose the moral high ground. Then we are subject to the same, if not greater judgment. I think we see that occuring now. The Old Testament is replete with examples of Israel and Judah relying on the sword and temporal alliances to safeguard their nation against the threat of invasion. In every instance they are defeated, overcome, and carried off.

We know what is right and what is wrong. It is written in our hearts and on our minds. Expediency must not be allowed to pre-empt ethics and morality.

Dooper, I have all the respect in the world for you and your service to this country, as well as your contribution to these boards. I shudder to think what you have been through. I pray that your immortal soul is protected by the love of Christ.

Not sure I can accept this one article carrying any more weight on the issue than the many people who have been water boarded and concluded that it works very well.

It sounds to me like your trying to imply that this one study invalidates centuries of historical evidence to the contrary.

I guess to me that seems like quite a stretch.

reply to post by mhc_70


Waterboarding works very well in that the subject will say ANYTHING to make it stop. Not necessarily the truth. Centuries of evidence to the contrary? Are you including the coerced confessions of the Inquisition as statistical evidence that torture elicits truth? Now, that is reaching.

The problem is that the moment we torture a single innocent person we become no better than a terrorist, and I would wager more than one of the people captured was innocent. If we allow ourselves to justify something like that, then we don't deserve to be saved by the information we get from them.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by mhc_70

 

Waterboarding works very well in that the subject will say ANYTHING to make it stop. Not necessarily the truth. Centuries of evidence to the contrary? Are you including the coerced confessions of the Inquisition as statistical evidence that torture elicits truth? Now, that is reaching.

It took KSM less than 2 minutes of waterboarding to spill the beans, much of which the CIA reported saved lives.

There is no need to include coerced confessions, the fact that this barbaric procedure, or any type of physical torture, has existed for so long is proof enough of its effectiveness.

reply to post by mhc_70


All it is is proof of man's inhumanity to his fellow man and his careless disregard for the rest of God's creation.

KSM is a patsy. 9/11 was perpetrated by fascist remnants of Operation Paperclip ensconced in the MIC and the GOP.

[edit on 23-9-2009 by Icarus Rising]

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by mhc_70

 

All it is is proof of man's inhumanity to his fellow man and his careless disregard for the rest of God's creation.

Maybe so, but John McCain would disagree.

KSM is a patsy. 9/11 was perpetrated by fascist remants of Operation Paperclip ensconced in the MIC and the GOP.

KSM was a top al queada operative, the effectiveness of waterboarding made him a patsy.

Article is nothing but re itterations of Past Research dateing decades back. There will never be any solid facts of "Real" information gathered from any subjects after a 48hr period of torture. Infact The degration of the information recieved within 48hr time frame is horrendous.

A few days of torture and the subject will cliam anything you want them to say. If you want them to admit they where alive and well dureing pearl harbor and they generaled the initial attack. They will positively do so.

To add, I have nothing against this tactic if used per factual basis. Hence within that time frame at maximum.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Bldrvgr]

reply to post by mhc_70


Didn't McCain give a false confession under torture from his North Vietnamese captors?

Is it not a rather fantastic historical irony that the torture techniques that the North Vietnamese used against McCain that forced him to offer a videotaped false confession ... are now the techniques the Bush administration is using to gain "intelligence" about terror networks.

How is it possible to know that everything John McCain once said on videotape for the enemy was false, because it was coerced, and yet assert that everything we torture out of terror suspects using exactly the same techniques, is true?

source

KSM is a nobody, a rabbit trail. He's the Atta passport of the war on whatever. A top level propaganda tool.

reply to post by Bldrvgr


The bottom line is torture is barbaric and has no place in a civilized society. On top of that, it doesn't work. Pragmatic hair-splitting about the time frame in which torture methods can be used to obtain useful information notwithstanding.

If you want real confessions, just have a few rounds of tequila with the person.

There are reasons why torture is forbidden in the Geneva Conventions. They were intended to raise civilization to a higher level and exert the moral authority of the U.S. in the world.

We are all outraged when an American prisoner is horribly tortured by his captors, but it's okay if we are doing it.

The fact that torture elicits only what the torturer wants to hear has been known for centuries. The Spanish Inquisition is a case in point.

What useful information have we gotten from torture since 9/11? I'd like to have that information.

reply to post by Icarus Rising


Icarus, you're very generous, and very kind.

No, I'm not referring to drugs. I'm thinking more in terms of fears and cultural abominations.

We all have fears. Most of us share many fears, and then we have our own fears that make us almost panic. I have a friend who's a mountain of a man, no fear of anything - but spiders. They will make him run.

I've seen some horrible, mangling torture. I even took a chance and offered an alternative that wouldn't leave them permanently maimed.

If your enemy fears something culturally, what will you use?

If your enemy has a religious abomination, what will you threaten him with?

It works. I studied my enemies, found out what they feared culturally and religiously, and trust me, it worked like a champ.

When it means keeping my men alive, then I have little hesitation in using whatever it takes to protect them.

The end result is saving lives. On both sides.

reply to post by dooper


I appreciate the psychological angle, taking a person's fears and turning them against him. It is much more subtle than the red hot poker. It may be more manipulation than outright torture. Do you believe it still inflicts lasting damage on the psyche, or does it just exploit existing weaknesses?