Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth.

Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth.

www.newsweek.com

These neurochemical effects set the stage for two serious pitfalls of interrogation under torture, argues O'Mara. The first is that "information presented by the captor to elicit responses during interrogation may inadvertently become part of the suspect's memory, especially since suspects are under extreme stress and are required to tell and retell the same events which may have happened over a period of years." As a result, information produced by the suspect may parrot or embellish suggestion

(visit the link for the full news article)

Torture doesn't work. In addition to creating more and worse terrorists with an even bigger axe to grind, the information it produces is at best unreliable and at worst outright false.

Yet we continue to use "enhanced techniques of extracting information." We don't use the word torture, but we use the methods. At some level, I think it might be a revenge tactic more than an intelligence tool. Torture the dirty Terrorist! It may end up revealing more about the torturer than the torturee.

There is a widely read book, an all-time best seller, that says, "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink, for in doing so you will heap burning coals upon his head." (The Bible, Romans 12:20) That sounds to me like torture, the kind we should be using.

www.newsweek.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 22-9-2009 by Icarus Rising]

It's not torture if our side does it, it's "enhanced interrogation techniques", which is justifiable and perfectly acceptable. However, if the other side does it then it's a gross abuse of human rights, criminal behavior, and a war crime.

Oh god, they're getting to me, I'm starting to believe the hype...has the time come to start a conspiracy against TPTB and take back power into the hands of the people?

Does America today bear more relation to the kind of regime that the constitution was created to protect people from, or the kind of governance of the people by the people that was intended to foster ideals of freedom and justice for all?

The French has some good ideas too, Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite! Anyone got any guillotine oil?

BLA BLA BLA.
You give me a Red Hot Iron Prod and I will have the guy telling you how many guys his sister whored herself out to.
Give a guy a pitcher of kool-aid and all he is going to tell you is that it needs more sugar.

reply to post by Common Good


Fundamental difference in approach here. Did you even read the article, or are you so enamored of red hot pokers you can't see past your own bloodlust?

There's a reason people become terrorists. It is generally in response to an invasion or subjugation by another group with greater force of arms (or more red hot pokers). It is a product of the might makes right philosophy. Which I might add, is a failed philosophy that only leads to MAD. The earth is getting smaller, the threat is getting bigger. Let's all take to eachother with red hot pokers, shall we? DUH!

Originally posted by Common Good
BLA BLA BLA.
You give me a Red Hot Iron Prod and I will have the guy telling you how many guys his sister whored herself out to.
Give a guy a pitcher of kool-aid and all he is going to tell you is that it needs more sugar.

What an asinine, glib response. Did Fox News help you formulate that opinion?

hahahahaha. WOW. ATS has really gotten that stick droven up pretty deep as of lately, tensions are high, people need to get laid.

If you dont understand the meaning behind what I said, than Im sorry.
When was the last time any of you interoggated someone of such a caliber?
Sometimes rough interigations works, sometimes they dont. Just depends on who you are dealing with.

Think about it for a second.
You interrogate a terrorist"nicely". What do you think he is going to tell you? Anyone? NOT A GOD DAMN THING. Maybe you can wait 20 years before he tells you of anything useful, by that time, the damage has already been done.

Now, you interrogate someone with force, maybe they tell you , maybe they dont. Now what happens when they DONT tell the truth? I will tell you what happens, the guys doing the interogations come back and beat em again for lying. It repeats itself until they finally had enough to tell you the truth.

-Edit-



[edit on 22-9-2009 by Common Good]

reply to post by Common Good


That is an opinion not supported by the results nor current scientific knowledge. What you get is more lies and more terrorists. That must be the intent.

scientific knowledge? It doesnt take much science to figure out if you twist someones arm long enough they will eventually give you what you want.

Tell me, how would you extract information from a "terrorist" ?

Please, enlighten me.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the article.

Let us reasses...

The brain allocates memory and perception via an intricate network of chemical association. The article is stating that if something is repeated often enough with a consistent neurotransmitter ratio/physiological state then the experience (verbal communications) becomes the dominant mental attention. So repeated physical duress will recall the stimulii presented (if it is consistently repeated) and will eventually hash it back out.

The process is essentially a self fulfilling prophecy and while it is not an old thought that someone will agree to anything for the cessation of pain, the article is presenting a physiological confirmation.

Though it is always a wise to acknowledge that people are not a static entity and that results will vary...

From Article-

"While we wait for Dick Cheney, the Pentagon, or the CIA to release evidence that "enhanced interrogation techniques" produced useful, truthful intelligence that could not be obtained without torture, neuroscientists are weighing in on how likely torture is to elicit such information—and they are not impressed.

It's become the conventional wisdom that the tortured will say anything to make the torture stop, and that "anything" need not be truthful as long as it is what the torturers want to hear. But years worth of studies in neuroscience, as well as new research, suggest that there are, in addition, fundamental aspects of neurochemistry that increase the chance that information obtained under torture will not be truthful.

The backstory. The inspector general of the CIA last month released a 2004 report on the interrogation of Al Qaeda suspects. As my colleague Mark Hosenballreported, it and other internal documents (which Cheney called on the CIA to release, believing they would back his claim) do not show that torture worked. In fact, The New York Times reported, the documents "do not refer to any specific interrogation methods and do not assess their effectiveness."

Scientists do not pretend to know, in any individual case, whether torture might extract useful information. But as neurobiologist Shane O'Mara of the Trinity College Institute of Neuroscience in Dublin explains in a paper in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciencecalled "Torturing the Brain," "the use of such techniques appears motivated by a folk psychology that is demonstrably incorrect. Solid scientific evidence on how repeated and extreme stress and pain affect memory and executive functions (such as planning or forming intentions) suggests these techniques are unlikely to do anything other than the opposite of that intended by coercive or 'enhanced' interrogation." "

This goes back to what I ORIGINALLY stated.

YES, they may tell a lie when being interrogated(tortured). Although this does not say what happens to a prisoner when they do indeed Lie. They get beat even more.
To me this article is part of the "Anti-Interrogation crowd". Who have NO IDEA how these interogations really work.
Have any of you Ever been locked up and interrogated?
If so, did you lie to them?
And if you did lie to them, or give them a mis truth, what happened to you when they found out?
You got the S*** kicked outof you for lying in the first place.

Another thing wrong with this, is the fact they they are not studying hardened "Terrorist" criminals in the field. Its a Lab study, thats all it is.

reply to post by Common Good


In would win him over to my side with the Gospel! I would take the time to show him the error of his ways, much the same as I am doing with you. You know, your posts make me think you are quite the little terror monger yourself. Don't forget, GHW Bush is probably the biggest drug dealing, gun running terrorist the American public has ever faced.

reply to post by Common Good


think about this for a second, what if the so-called "terrorist" really knows nothing about an operation and was simply protecting his family from foreign troops or was captured by mistake?

what if the "terrorist" is really an innocent civilian who was at the wrong place at the wrong time? You should know, that many "terrorists" who were tortured in guantanamo bay were actually innocent.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by Common Good

 

In would win him over to my side with the Gospel! I would take the time to show him the error of his ways, much the same as I am doing with you. You know, your posts make me think you are quite the little terror monger yourself. Don't forget, GHW Bush is probably the biggest drug dealing, gun running terrorist the American public has ever faced.

You are going to preach to a man who kills for a living>? hahahaha.
What in the hell do you think you are going to teach a man who has seen more than you can possibly imagine?

Terror Monger? Me? hahaha. Hardly. I just know how the world really works. I dont listen to crazy whacked out old women who write articles about thing they have no idea of what they are talking about.

"Dont forget about Bush". Oh god. You gotta be kidding me right?
Is this what this is all about? Bush? Getting Bush on a pole and stringing him up?

If you wanna go after Bush, go after Bush. Not the people who are over their risking their necks for pieces of S*** who dont understand what is outside of their own walls.

reply to post by Common Good


Try using external quotes next time there, chum. Imo, terrorists are even less likely to give accurate info than the average Joe. They know what they are getting into and what will happen if they get caught. They probably even train in torture tolerance techniques. Didn't you when you were becoming a spook?

Torture is counter-productive. If it worked so great, Osama and the rest of his cronies would be incarcerated and the war on whatever would be over. But that's not the point or the aim is it? Come on, you know. The real torture for you must be keeping all these horrible secrets about what a fraud is being perpetrated on the American public by the very people responsible for their protection.

reply to post by Common Good


You must mean you can't recognize the truth when you see it, regardless of the source. You are blinded by your own prejudice and preconceived notions, and when your precious little world view is challenged, you resort to schoolyard insults and bully tactics. You ARE a good little terroist, aren't you?

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by Common Good

 

Try using external quotes next time there, chum. Imo, terrorists are even less likely to give accurate info than the average Joe. They know what they are getting into and what will happen if they get caught. They probably even train in torture tolerance techniques. Didn't you when you were becoming a spook?

Torture is counter-productive. If it worked so great, Osama and the rest of his cronies would be incarcerated and the war on whatever would be over. But that's not the point or the aim is it? Come on, you know. The real torture for you must be keeping all these horrible secrets about what a fraud is being perpetrated on the American public by the very people responsible for their protection.

Did you just callme a spook? lol. Good one


Look at what you just said "They probably even train in torture tolerance techniques".
YES, they do. Now what makes you think that treating them nice is going to do? You think if they were trained for such interrogation tactics "as you say" that they are going tojust GIVE you information just by talking to them? If they arent going to give you information after being tortured repeatadly, then they definately arent just going to hand it over. These people are ready to DIE for their cause. Are you?

Wow, if this logic holds out to be true, this could work amazingly well for the Obama administration.

If the economy continues to worsen causing more pain and stress for more people it is much more likely that more people will believe him.

Interesting find.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by Common Good

 

You must mean you can't recognize the truth when you see it, regardless of the source. You are blinded by your own prejudice and preconceived notions, and when your precious little world view is challenged, you resort to schoolyard insults and bully tactics. You ARE a good little terroist, aren't you?

WOW> You justsounded likean Obama democrat, pulling that racist crap with me.

Thanks for showing your true colors

I said what I think of the situation. I have no time to be arguing with someone that can only back up their words by throwing race around.
Sorry, I wont have it. Have a nice day.

Yeah, well, it can also be used to squeeze out the truth like squeezing a grape.

Most effective with psychological dislocation. Extreme dislocation.

Fast, effective, efficient, and quite accurate.