Questions for 9/11 Debunkers Re: Twin Towers' Destruction.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Yeah, you know calling something proof never actually makes it proof. Unless it speaks for itself. And trying to discredit a witness by saying he changed his story from "big rumble" to "strong boom," especially when English isn't even this guy's first language, speaks for itself. I have no problem discerning what the man experienced from his own words. You're just a peon in denial about what your overlords are doing with their country.

reply to post by bsbray11


Once again with the attacks, is your self esteem that low? Either way, it is proof just because your locked in step believing anything that is portrayed as "evidence" for CD *remember our little conversation? in that other thread. your proving my point and I thank you.* doesn't mean I have to as well. Especially considering you cannot provide any proof the information I provided was false except for an expressed faith in his testimony and a unsubstanciated claim that he "doesn't know English all that well". The excuses you make for yourself is awe inspiring considering your lack.

But, I do realise that is all your going to do. Call anyone who opposes you every name you can think of *and in my case say I was like you despite not knowing me and then change it to I am scum of the Earth* and completely ignore any information provided usually with the flimsiest excuses you yourself would not accept from those that disagree. And this is where you start talking about the people in Iraq and Afghanastan right?

[edit on 3-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


And now the ranting starts. Get over yourself. You have yet to give 1 good reason to doubt anything this one single man has said. And that's without having to resort to post all the other similar testimonies from completely different people.

reply to post by bsbray11


This from insult-a-tron. Good bye......

You're just a peon in denial about what your overlords are doing with their country.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

janitor William Rodriguez reported that he and others felt an explosion below the first sub-level office at 9 AM, after which co-worker Felipe David, who had been in front of a nearby freight elevator, came into the office with severe burns on his face and arms yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"

Rodriguez's account has been corroborated by Jose Sanchez, who was in the workshop on the fourth sub-level. Sanchez said that he and a co-worker heard a big blast that "sounded like a bomb," after which "a huge ball of fire went through the freight elevator."

Engineer Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the sixth sub-basement of the north tower, said that after an explosion he and a co-worker went up to the C level, where there was a small machine shop. "There was nothing there but rubble," said Pecoraro. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press--gone!" They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil." Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, Pecoraro was convinced that a bomb had gone off.

"If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."
- Mark Loizeaux, head of Controlled Demolition, Inc.

In June of 2002, NBC television played segments from tapes recorded on 9/11. One segment contained the following exchange, which involved firefighters in the south tower:

Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've just had another explosion.
Official: Battalion 3 to dispatch, we've had additional explosion.
Dispatcher: Received battalion command. Additional explosion.

Firefighter Louie Cacchioli, after entering the north tower lobby and seeing elevator doors completely blown out and people being hit with debris, asked himself, "how could this be happening so quickly if a plane hit way above"? After he reached the 24th floor, he and another fireman "heard this huge explosion that sounded like a bomb [and] knocked off the lights and stalled the elevator." After they pried themselves out of the elevator, "another huge explosion like the first one hits. This one hits about two minutes later . . . [and] I'm thinking, "Oh. My God, these bastards put bombs in here like they did in 1993!"

Multiple explosions were also reported by Teresa Veliz, who worked for a software development company in the north tower. She was on the 47th floor, she reported, when suddenly "the whole building shook. . . . [Shortly thereafter] the building shook again, this time even more violently." Then, while Veliz was making her way downstairs and outside: "There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. . . . There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."

Steve Evans, a New York-based correspondent for the BBC, said: "I was at the base of the second tower . . . that was hit. . . . There was an explosion. . . . The base of the building shook. . . . [T]hen there was a series of explosions."

Sue Keane, an officer in the New Jersey Fire Police Department who was previously a sergeant in the U.S. Army, said in her account of the onset of the collapse of the south tower: "[I]t sounded like bombs going off. That's when the explosions happened. . . . I knew something was going to happen. . . . It started to get dark, then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion." Then, discussing her experiences during the collapse of the north tower, she said: "[There was] another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs. . . . I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me. . . . There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street."

[edit on 2-10-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Wall Street Journal reporter John Bussey, describing his observation of the collapse of the south tower from the ninth floor of the WSJ office building, said: "I . . . looked up out of the office window to see what seemed like perfectly synchronized explosions coming from each floor. . . . One after the other, from top to bottom, with a fraction of a second between, the floors blew to pieces."

Another Wall Street Journal reporter said that after seeing what appeared to be "individual floors, one after the other exploding outward," he thought: "'My God, they're going to bring the building down.' And they, whoever they are, HAD SET CHARGES. . . . I saw the explosions."

A similar perception was reported by Beth Fertig of WNYC Radio, who said: "It just descended like a timed explosion--like when they are deliberately bringing a building down. . . . It was coming down so perfectly that in one part of my brain I was thinking, 'They got everyone out, and they're bringing the building down because they have to.'"

A more graphic testimony to this perception was provided on the film made by the Naudet brothers. In a clip from that film, one can watch two firemen describing their experiences to other firemen.

Fireman 1: "We made it outside, we made it about a block . . . ."

Fireman 2: "We made it at least two blocks and we started running." He makes explosive sounds and then uses a chopping hand motion to emphasize his next point: "Floor by floor it started popping out . . . ."

Fireman 1: "It was as if they had detonated--as if they were planning to take down a building, boom boom boom boom boom . . . ."

Fireman 2: "All the way down. I was watching it and running. And then you just saw this cloud of # chasing you down."

Now from the oral histories

Several FDNY members reported that they heard an explosion just before the south tower collapsed. For example, Battalion Chief John Sudnik said that while he and others were working at the command post, "we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down."

Firefighter Timothy Julian said: "First I thought it was an explosion. I thought maybe there was a bomb on the plane, but delayed type of thing, you know secondary device. . . . I just heard like an explosion and then a cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down."

Emergency medical technician Michael Ober said: "[W]e heard a rumble, some twisting metal, we looked up in the air, and . . . it looked to me just like an explosion. It didn't look like the building was coming down, it looked like just one floor had blown completely outside of it. . . . I didn't think they were coming down. I just froze and stood there looking at it."22 Ober's testimony suggests that he heard and saw the explosion before he saw any sign that the building was coming down.

This point is made even more clearly by Chief Frank Cruthers, who said: "There was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse."

Shaking Ground before the Collapse

As we saw earlier, some people in the towers reported that there were powerful explosions in the basements. Such explosions would likely have caused the ground to shake.

Such shaking was reported by medical technician Lonnie Penn, who said that just before the collapse of the south tower: "I felt the ground shake, I turned around and ran for my life. I made it as far as the Financial Center when the collapse happened."

According to the official account, the vibrations that people felt were produced by material from the collapsing towers hitting the ground. Penn's account, however, indicates that the shaking must have occurred several seconds before the collapse.

Shaking prior to the collapse of the north tower was described by fire patrolman Paul Curran. He was standing near it, he said, when "all of a sudden the ground just started shaking. It felt like a train was running under my feet. . . . The next thing we know, we look up and the tower is collapsing."

Lieutenant Bradley Mann of the fire department, one of the people to witness both collapses, described shaking prior to each of them. "Shortly before the first tower came down," he said, "I remember feeling the ground shaking. I heard a terrible noise, and then debris just started flying everywhere. People started running." Then, after they had returned to the area, he said, "we basically had the same thing: The ground shook again, and we heard another terrible noise and the next thing we knew the second tower was coming down."

Multiple Explosions

The oral histories contain numerous testimonies with reports of more than one explosion. Paramedic Kevin Darnowski, for example, said: "I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down."

Gregg Brady, an emergency medical technician, reported the same thing about the north tower, saying: "I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now."

Somewhat more explosions were reported by firefighter Thomas Turilli, who said, referring to the south tower, that "it almost sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight."

Even more explosions were reported by Craig Carlsen, who said that while he and other firefighters were looking up at the towers, they "heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down."

Collapse Beginning below the Strike Zone and Fire

According to the official account, the "pancaking" of the floors began when the floors above the strike zone, where the supports were weakened by the impact of the airplanes and the resulting fires, fell on the floors below. Some witnesses reported, however, that the collapse of the south tower began lower than the floors that were struck by the airliner and hence lower than the fires.

Timothy Burke reported that while he was watching flames coming out of the south tower, "the building popped, lower than the fire." He later heard a rumor that "the aviation fuel fell into the pit, and whatever floor it fell on heated up really bad, and that's why it popped at that floor." At the time, however, he said, "I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion."

This same twofold observation was made by firefighter Edward Cachia, who said: "As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit. . . . [W]e originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down."

Flashes: Another common feature of controlled demolitions is that people who are properly situated may see flashes when the explosives go off. Assistant Commissioner Stephen Gregory said: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . Lieutenant Evangelista . . . asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw."

Flashes were reported in the north tower by Captain Karin Deshore, who said: "Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash."

Demolition Rings: At this point, Deshore's account moved to another standard phenomenon seen by those who watch controlled demolitions: explosion rings, in which a series of explosions runs rapidly around a building. Deshore's next words were: "Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building."

An explosion ring (or belt) was also described by firefighter Richard Banaciski. Speaking of the south tower, he said: "[T]here was just an explosion. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions."

A description of what appeared to be a ring of explosions was also given by Deputy Commissioner Thomas Fitzpatrick, who said: "We looked up at the [south tower] . . . . All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up . . . . It looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. . . . My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV."

There are a lot more where those came from (the Oral Histories), but it will take a while to find them all.

In the interim, I invite people to watch this film, which contains many of the TV "on the scene" reports from that day, which, interestingly, were not played again thereafter.

9/11 Revisted, were explosives used?

Google Video Link

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Not exactly sure why I am bothering given the past amount of wonderfully lovely deflection and character assassination. Guess I am a masochist.
1st one: As I pointed out that story has changed and not to mention stretching out the timeline to even higher impossibilities.
2nd one: Beginning the question fallacy. Also, the collapse was initiated from the top down.
2rd, 3rd, 5th ones: Know I'm going to get a rant for this. But, source please? I am not discounting them I simply want more information.
4th one: Convinced that it was does not constitute proof. Especially when we are speaking about panicing people in an extreme situation.
6th one: Sounds like a bomb. Also I can think of something else that can cause that effect.
7th one: Source please? And how come there is not video evidence of this? At each floor as he said?
The rest: Remember the material I presented about the slippy slope that was memory?

And go for rant about how stupid evil bad I am now.

Here's a link to the entire oral histories from 503 witnesses

graphics8.nytimes.com...

It is interesting as well the story about how this information was surpressed and then eventually released to the public.

And although I've posted this before, I think it's time to take another close look at this

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
And go for rant about how stupid evil bad I am now.

Dude, we don't care that much about you. But for what you post here, you are not very convincing. I have no doubt you think you can explain everything that sounds "like" a bomb, or else say everyone's memory was bad. It's very easy and simple-minded to do. But you aren't solving anything or convincing anybody. You don't really know what was making those noises, you just pretend you do, or can make your equivalent of a biased educated guess. So the case for further investigation into these things goes on until something is actually settled either way.

South Tower Pre-collapse ground shake - still more proof of explosions

video.google.com...#

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I take it I will not be getting the sources cited I asked for?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

I don't work for you. I gave you the link - do your own research!

Here's a video with various testimonies:




Ah, and here's a part two with even more video testimonies:




All the explosions that occurred on the lower floors, lobby/mezzanine area, and basement are interesting to hear about especially. A news reporter says his subway train filled with smoke. One lady says she literally thought the subway had exploded below her, or that subway trains had collided, and says she heard a "pounding" sound coming from below her. Remember reports on TV that police/FBI were convinced another truck/van/car bomb had gone off in the parking garage level? And Mike Pecoraro's testimony of a huge basement explosion that caused white smoke to fill basement levels.

What craziness that all these people hallucinated memories of the same things that never happened!

[edit on 2-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Um, you are the one making the claim. Thusly it behooves you to prove your claim. *cue rant about how the government needs to prove it's self not you despite that is not what we are talking about or something simular* But, ok. I will do some reading through a rather large repository seeing as to how you don't want to take the time to thoroughly prove your case.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
*cue rant about how the government needs to prove it's self not you despite that is not what we are talking about or something simular*

So when was it any of our legal responsibilities to investigate the WTC collapses using forensic evidence? Congress passed legislation assigning agencies to handle the investigation. The report was subsequently written for us, the public. We judge it. These are our unaddressed questions.

It should also be noted, that this event. Is exactly what would happen had the floors damaged gave away and fell onto the undamaged one below it. With the floor momentarily holding the wait til giving way. Initiating a progressive collapse.

This point is made even more clearly by Chief Frank Cruthers, who said: "There was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse."

Also Timothy Julian at one points states he was sure for a little after that it was a bomb. I wonder what changed his mind?

reply to post by Truth_Seeker_82


Absolutely no evidence of a cruise missile or any other airframe hitting the Pentagon on 9-11-2001. There is no evidence of a cruise missile launch from an aircraft, surface ship, or submarine on 9-11-2001. There are no reports of a cruise missile circling over Virginia.

A cruise missile could not possibly have knocked down the 5 widely spaced light poles with its stubby wings. So knowing that, why would the 9-11 perps stage the downed light poles just in case the cruise missile was caught on video or camera?

They would have to pretend that al Qaeda was provided a cruise missile or similar airframe by the Russians or Iranians or Chinese, and how would its stubby wings knock down 5 light poles?

They still would have had to pack in some jet fuel for jet fuel fires burning for days if it was a cruise missile. A cruise missile could not have caused the wide damage area which was too narrow for a 757 with a 124 ft wingspan.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b3b989d8a6a5.jpg[/atsimg]

A cruise missile would have endured the same risks as any air frame attempting to hit the Pentagon 1st floor.

Crashing and burning before reaching its target.

Missing its target completely and having to go around for a 2nd attempt.

Missing its target and destroying a much larger portion of the Pentagon which was not reinforced and killing high ranking officials.

Crashing on the lawn in full view of everybody in the world.

A Navy Captain refusing to go along with the treason and refusing to launch a cruise missile.

Leaving recognizable cruise missile parts all over the lawn before the FBI or Secret Service could get to them and lose them.

Nope. No cruise missiles and no aircraft hit the Pentagon on 9-11-2001.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/63b7387179af.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by bsbray11
Here's a video with various testimonies:

Ah, and here's a part two with even more video testimonies:

All the explosions that occurred on the lower floors, lobby/mezzanine area, and basement are interesting to hear about especially. A news reporter says his subway train filled with smoke. One lady says she literally thought the subway had exploded below her, or that subway trains had collided, and says she heard a "pounding" sound coming from below her. Remember reports on TV that police/FBI were convinced another truck/van/car bomb had gone off in the parking garage level? And Mike Pecoraro's testimony of a huge basement explosion that caused white smoke to fill basement levels.

What craziness that all these people hallucinated memories of the same things that never happened!

[edit on 2-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Very interesting..

Thanks for posting that. This is just SUCH an important issue, and it's so important, historically, that we come to see it for what it really was, so that it can serve something of value, for the sake fo the victims themselves.