Tired of military bashing...

Originally posted by curme
As for the media interviewing troops, I remember getting classes on how to talk to the media. Don't reveal military details (obviously) and don't say anything bad. Don't give an impression that your morale is low. The enemy can use for their own gain. I'm not saying that soldiers being interviewed are not telling the truth, they may really have high morale. I'm just saying media interviews may not be accurate because of how soldeirs are taught to deal with the media.

Absolutely. That is the same thing I was taught, although the Marines are usually the least likely to a) be interviewed or b) talk to the media.

They arent forced to. It's America. If you want to go to war you go to war. If you dont you dont. It's their choice. Remeber that's why people are saying bad things about them. They choose to do this. They arent forced to. And that is one stupid choice.

So what - you would rather nobody joins the military, so no one makes the choice of "going to war"? Yeah, THAT would be GREAT, wouldn't it?

These men and women joined for differing reasons, to be sure, and I am sure that they realized when they joined that they may be sent to fight, but as for it being a choice? No. It's not their PERSONAL choice to do what they're doing. they were SENT there, and they are doing the best job they can do. If they join the military, and decide NOT to go where they are sent, it's called DESERTION. THAT they cannot do.





[Edited on 16-5-2004 by natas]

Originally posted by curme

I just came back from my second tour and have had nothing but kind words and thank you's from people who see me in uniform, but this community supports us.

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand that part. Your second tour where? In what branch do you serve? I know you are on active duty and your whereabouts are very sensitive, but what is your job? Communications? Artillery? Fuel Handler? I'm getting ready to join the Air Force myself. I had 4 years as a sailor, 6 in the Army. I'm planning for retirement in the Air Force. Probably at least one more tour in Iraq, but I hear that the Air Force is a lot better to it's troops than anyone else!

The only thing I will tell you is that I am Air Force. Any other information is my business, and no amount of cajoling will change that. My personal privacy, as well as OPSEC and COMSEC, are paramount to me. Suffice to say I will not see a third tour, as I am slated to retire soon.

However, if I read the majority of your posts right, I highly recommend you do not join any service again. If I had a troop who spoke about his commander in chief as you do, and beat down the mission and morale as you have here, I would do my best to boot you. By your actions here, you do not seem like you have what it takes to be a military member.

Originally posted by intrepid
Quote bt AR, "Again, the media is what it is. They are crass, obnoxious, pushy, and get in the way at every turn. I've hauled a bunch of them around, and they all suck. They only want to know the bad stuff, and they never print the good. Again, it doesn't sell. If somebody prints something bad, they only way to get the next scoop is to make it worse then the previous. Example, there is a fantastic story about one of our guys here who does more for the community in a week than most folk do all their lives. He's won three different awards in the last two years and is up for a national one, and not a single paper, radio or TV station has done a word on him. Why? He's military, and we are all bad now. That's what sells papers."

Sorry pal, but I have a finely tuned bull # detector, and it's going off right now. I don't think you are millitary at all. A little good press is needed, don't you think that the gov. would support that? Personally I think you are full of # .

You can think whatever you want, makes no difference to me. I've been in the AF for over 20 years, am preparing for retirement, and am proud of my service. Do you think that the fact that some moron on a message board questions my service means a tinkers dink to me?

Wrong-o, Douch-bag....

Originally posted by AD5673

Whether you like the reasons they are there or not, let's not bash the men and women who put their lives on the line every day. A FEW have done stupid things, but the majority (how many are over there? Over 100,000, correct?) have done nothing wrong and are just missing wives, kids and parents back home.

They arent forced to. It's America. If you want to go to war you go to war. If you dont you dont. It's their choice. Remeber that's why people are saying bad things about them. They choose to do this. They arent forced to. And that is one stupid choice.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by AD5673]

You're and idiot....

However, if I read the majority of your posts right, I highly recommend you do not join any service again. If I had a troop who spoke about his commander in chief as you do, and beat down the mission and morale as you have here, I would do my best to boot you. By your actions here, you do not seem like you have what it takes to be a military member.

Well, just for the record, I never talked that way in front of the soldiers, or at least, I really tried not to. But when the soldiers left and it was just us NCOs, you better believe I let my opinions known! I don't care who you are, if your doing wrong, I'm going to tell you. Everyone has different leadership styles, but I think that makes a great military member.

"Since I am still on active duty, I will not disclose where I am, nor can I disclose where and when I was in theatre."

If so, what's with all the cloak and dagger? By the rest of your post I infer that you are back, therefore what harm to mention where you are now? Why bother with that first sentance at all? Just say you were there.

Originally posted by intrepid
"Since I am still on active duty, I will not disclose where I am, nor can I disclose where and when I was in theatre."

If so, what's with all the cloak and dagger? By the rest of your post I infer that you are back, therefore what harm to mention where you are now? Why bother with that first sentance at all? Just say you were there.

Because you are not and have never been in the military, you have no idea what OPSEC and COMSEC are. OPSEC is Operations Security. Because of what I do and where i did it, I can not and will not disclose the information you ask for. End of story. If you don't like it, tough shiite, that's the way the ball bounces.

COMSEC is Communications Security, which is what I would be in violation of if I were to disclose any of said information here. Since disclosure of any tidbits of information can be combined with other tidbits that are disclosed, "talking around" information is also a bad thing. My still being on active duty has nothing to do with releasing information. There are things that I will not be able to talk about for the rest of my life, and I take the charge of that information very seriously. There is no "cloak and dagger", except in your mind. Had you ever been in government service with a security clearance, you would understand, and would not be asking. You'll notice that curme, who has military service under his belt, asked only once. That is because he understands that I will not divulge any information. As for my stateside location, well, that's just my personal preference. You don't need to know, so I'll not be telling you. Period.

You won't get the information, so you may as well stop asking. If this explanation isn't good enough for you, that's your problem, not mine.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

We know that the people are glad we are there, building schools and hospitals, getting the water flowing, giving them electricity, and allowing them freedoms many have never know before.

Now I know why we don't/can't have affordable medical care in this country...because we're too busy providing for everyone else and their brothers. Nice. I have to wonder if these services will provided to the iraqi people for free or they will remain essentially useless (as they are here a lot of times) simply because people can't afford to use them. What's the use of building hospitals ect. if the people can't #ing afford them in the first place ???

How about getting back to the "charity begins at home" philosophy ? I'm sure our countries poor would appreciate it.

Originally posted by natas
Why don't you try to post something intelligent about the topic? Oh, that's right - you're probably just some immature punk kid that tries to get a rise out of folks.

I'll be sure to ignore you in the future. Thanks for acting like a 12 year old.

He is. I've personally been assaulted by his economy with the english language in another thread which was shut down in large part because he couldn't argue constructively and wasted thread space abusing everyone he disagreed with.

Originally posted by RedOctober90

I don't bash the military, I just believe that if they are sent in to invade a foreign country they will have to accept the consequences.

I agree. The idea that as long as you are following orders you are doing no wrong and hence avoid having any responsibility for your actions just doesn't hold water with me. People can be pretty stupid sometimes but I don't believe they are SO stupid as to not know when they are doing something their inner self tells them is very wrong.

I don't buy this arguement from military soldiers any more then I buy it from police officers, traffic wardens, or bank tellers. If YOU know it's wrong and YOU do it anyway, the blame is on YOU, as well as the person that ordered you to do it.

Originally posted by natas

So what - you would rather nobody joins the military, so no one makes the choice of "going to war"? Yeah, THAT would be GREAT, wouldn't it?

Actually I think it would be, yes. Then maybe those who want the wars in the first place would have to get up off their fat asses do the fighting themselves instead of forcing mostly poor citizens to do their dirty work.

Affirmative Reaction,

I don't think it's fair of you to start being verbally abusive just because somebody happens to disagree with you. Intrepid isn't alone in his opinion in case you haven't noticed. There are lots of people who are in basic agreement. Myself included.



[Edited on 16-5-2004 by KayEm]

Originally posted by curme

Well, just for the record, I never talked that way in front of the soldiers, or at least, I really tried not to. But when the soldiers left and it was just us NCOs, you better believe I let my opinions known! I don't care who you are, if your doing wrong, I'm going to tell you. Everyone has different leadership styles, but I think that makes a great military member.

You miss my point. It doesn't matter what the soldiers under your control see, it matters that because you have such strong anti-Bush, anti-war feelings, you may not obey the "lawful orders of those appointed above you". Remember that from your oath of enlistment? It makes no difference if you think the order is something you agree with or not. If it is a lawful order, you have no choice to obey. Were you under my command and I knew of your beliefs, I could not and would not trust you to do what you were told to do. I'm sure you know that that gets fellow soldiers killed.

Without a military, we would be defenseless against any attack. Mexico could invade us and put us under.

My point was more to say that we need a strong military to keep other countries from stepping all over us and our friends. War mongerers should pay a steep price for starting things unnecessarily - I agree with you there. Our men and women over there (the vast majority, anyway) deserve respect and admiration for trying to rebuild from the ashes, and for trying to keep the peace (or battle against insurgents that keep attacking).

Originally posted by KayEm
Now I know why we don't/can't have affordable medical care in this country...because we're too busy providing for everyone else and their brothers. Nice. I have to wonder if these services will provided to the iraqi people for free or they will remain essentially useless (as they are here a lot of times) simply because people can't afford to use them. What's the use of building hospitals ect. if the people can't #ing afford them in the first place ???

How about getting back to the "charity begins at home" philosophy ? I'm sure our countries poor would appreciate it.

the reason we don't have affordable health care in this country is because of morons who sue doctors for exorbitant amounts of money over a hangnail, driving malpractice insurance premiums through the roof. Other than that, we live in a global society, and have always helped our fellow man. That's what makes us better than the terrorist bastards that killed 3,000 innocent men, women and children on 9/11.

I agree. The idea that as long as you are following orders you are doing no wrong and hence avoid having any responsibility for your actions just doesn't hold water with me. People can be pretty stupid sometimes but I don't believe they are SO stupid as to not know when they are doing something their inner self tells them is very wrong.

I don't buy this argument from military soldiers any more then I buy it from police officers, traffic wardens, or bank tellers. If YOU know it's wrong and YOU do it anyway, the blame is on YOU, as well as the person that ordered you to do it.

Another stupid argument that has no truth to it at all. "Because I was following orders" has never and will never be a defense for committing crimes. It wasn't an allowable defense at Nuremberg, and it still isn't today. Try again.





Actually I think it would be, yes. Then maybe those who want the wars in the first place would have to get up off their fat asses do the fighting themselves instead of forcing mostly poor citizens to do their dirty work.

Now that's REALLY freaking stupid. No defenses for our nation, so just let the terrorists come right in and take over. Have you graduated from grade school yet???

Affirmative Reaction,

I don't think it's fair of you to start being verbally abusive just because somebody happens to disagree with you. Intrepid isn't alone in his opinion in case you haven't noticed. There are lots of people who are in basic agreement. Myself included.

You better go back and read again, Bucko. Intrepid was the one who became abusive with me, and questioned my military service. But since you agree with him, you'll totally ignore that fact. Fortunately, all anyone need do is go back and read the post on the first page. Of course, if you can't read, you can go ask your Mommy to read it for you...


[Edited on 16-5-2004 by KayEm]

I like reading your responses. You say what you feel, and have the means to back it up. Glad you're on our side...

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

the reason we don't have affordable health care in this country is because of morons who sue doctors for exorbitant amounts of money over a hangnail, driving malpractice insurance premiums through the roof. Other than that, we live in a global society, and have always helped our fellow man. That's what makes us better than the terrorist bastards that killed 3,000 innocent men, women and children on 9/11.

I don't happen to think it makes us a particularly better country when we can't even take care of our own poor FIRST before we go handing it out everywhere else.

Another stupid argument that has no truth to it at all. "Because I was following orders" has never and will never be a defense for committing crimes. It wasn't an allowable defense at Nuremberg, and it still isn't today. Try again.

Read my post again before rushing off to your keyboard to abuse me. Earth to Affirmative, Helllooooo !!!! I agreed with you ! :bash:

Now that's REALLY freaking stupid. No defenses for our nation, so just let the terrorists come right in and take over. Have you graduated from grade school yet???

Yes, probably while you were still sucking at mommies tit. Is this your way of dealing with those who disagree with your stance on issues, Aff ? If it is, then please choose the ignore option for my posts in the future if you don't like what I have to say, because I prefer the free-flow of differing opinions rather then name-calling when I don't agree with them.

You better go back and read again, Bucko. Intrepid was the one who became abusive with me, and questioned my military service. But since you agree with him, you'll totally ignore that fact. Fortunately, all anyone need do is go back and read the post on the first page. Of course, if you can't read, you can go ask your Mommy to read it for you...

Excuse me for a moment .....

Bwaaaaahaaaaahahahaaaaaa !!!!!!!!

There. That's better. I haven't heard the word 'Bucko' used since the last time I watched Happy Days and it just struck me as hilariously funny to be referred to as such.

Aff, as it so happens I HAVE read this entire post and I haven't seen anything Intrepid has said to you that could be construed as verbally abusive. In fact, I've read a ton of his posts on this site and can honestly say that I've always found him to be fair and honest. You on the other hand are another story. You may have been here longer then me and have more posts, but the very first time I see one of your posts and reply to it, you jump in with instant abuse and derogatory name calling ? I don't like to respond in kind, but hey, I can play with the best of 'em. To respond to your inquiry, yes, I can read. Quite well, I might add. Need I say that I've probably been reading probably LONG before you were sucking at mommies tit.

Here's a thought. Why don't we agree to disagree on this issue then we can BOTH quit with the derogatory "mommie" remarks ?

Originally posted by natas
I like reading your responses. You say what you feel, and have the means to back it up. Glad you're on our side...

Thank you.
We in the military are not all mindless automatons who follow our leaders blindly into battle, raping and pillaging as we go. As a matter of fact, those military members who are guilty of abusing the prisoners in Iraq (sorry, it's not torture...not even close. Ask the Iraqi's if it's tourure...they'll just laugh at you...) represent only about 10 out of 100,000 individuals in Iraq. Pretty low percentage, eh? don't get me wrong. they are guilty, and should and will be punished, no doubt about that. But anyone who thinks was is easy, or that it's fun, is a total moron. In addition, those that think we should not have a strong military are usually the anarchists who are just looking for an easier way of getting themselves in power. Either that, or they just have no idea what the real world is all about. comes in cycles every few years. Big 'ole vicious circle....

Okay, maybe it was a little harsh, but do you see the point about the defense? With no military, we are a sitting duck. To agree with such a statement shows that perhaps you hadn't considered that notion.

I like AR's responses - they show that he truly cares about our country and our military. Yes, he does get a little heated, but I really think it has more to do with a close connection to our boys and girls over there than anything personal against you.

AR, yes I called you out, because you sounded so convoluted. My 2nd post, if you would reread it, made the point that all you had to do was say you were there. The questions were rhetorical. As for the military, my father was navy, grandfather army, and I work for the govenment, having to take an oath of secrecy. I have nothing but respect for those that serve. If what you said is true, then I guess you were just being over-dramatic. So if you want to continue on the offensive I will only assume that my prior thoughts had merit.

Originally posted by natas
Okay, maybe it was a little harsh, but do you see the point about the defense? With no military, we are a sitting duck. To agree with such a statement shows that perhaps you hadn't considered that notion.

I like AR's responses - they show that he truly cares about our country and our military. Yes, he does get a little heated, but I really think it has more to do with a close connection to our boys and girls over there than anything personal against you.

Natas, don't misunderstand me. I understand passion. I even admire it greatly even when I don't agree with the issue.

But what I don't agree with are derogatory comments. Isn't it possible to passionately express your viewpoints and debate them without trying to make the other posters look bad ?

Originally posted by KayEm

Read my post again before rushing off to your keyboard to abuse me. Earth to Affirmative, Helllooooo !!!! I agreed with you ! :bash:

Then you should make your post clearer. You said you didn't buy it as an excuse, as if it was going to be allowed. Sorry, but if you meant the same as I, then you need to learn to express yourself better...

Yes, probably while you were still sucking at mommies tit. Is this your way of dealing with those who disagree with your stance on issues, Aff ? If it is, then please choose the ignore option for my posts in the future if you don't like what I have to say, because I prefer the free-flow of differing opinions rather then name-calling when I don't agree with them.

Free flow of ideas? HAAAAAA!!! Give me a BREAK!!! The only thing you did was bash me for my reply to your little buddy. Give it a rest...



Aff, as it so happens I HAVE read this entire post and I haven't seen anything Intrepid has said to you that could be construed as verbally abusive. In fact, I've read a ton of his posts on this site and can honestly say that I've always found him to be fair and honest. You on the other hand are another story. You may have been here longer then me and have more posts, but the very first time I see one of your posts and reply to it, you jump in with instant abuse and derogatory name calling ? I don't like to respond in kind, but hey, I can play with the best of 'em. To respond to your inquiry, yes, I can read. Quite well, I might add. Need I say that I've probably been reading probably LONG before you were sucking at mommies tit.

Here's a thought. Why don't we agree to disagree on this issue then we can BOTH quit with the derogatory "mommie" remarks ?

Well, I think you have proved to everyone here that you can't read, so go get mommy to read what Intrepid actually said to me...he said:

Sorry pal, but I have a finely tuned bull (c) detector, and it's going off right now. I don't think you are millitary at all. A little good press is needed, don't you think that the gov. would support that? Personally I think you are full of (c) .

Additionally, your posts to me have been nothing short of abusive, so quit calling the kettle black, eh? Besides, this IS the Mudpit, so if you can�t handle the banter, get out. Now, if you want to keep floating your crappola down the river, you go right ahead, but it might be a little less embarrassing if you said something that was a little harder to prove as a total load of buffalo biscuits...

Originally posted by intrepid
AR, yes I called you out, because you sounded so convoluted. My 2nd post, if you would reread it, made the point that all you had to do was say you were there. The questions were rhetorical. As for the military, my father was navy, grandfather army, and I work for the govenment, having to take an oath of secrecy. I have nothing but respect for those that serve. If what you said is true, then I guess you were just being over-dramatic. So if you want to continue on the offensive I will only assume that my prior thoughts had merit.

There is no "offense" here, I simply allowed you to think what ever you will. It makes no difference to me, as I know my record.

My dislike of the press derives directly from my personal experiences with them, as they are exactly what I said. Pushy, obtrusive, demanding, never listen to directions, and get in the way at every turn, sometimes at their own peril. I have had to get physical with more than one cameraman who came close to getting himself killed, or one of those under my direction. Let it suffice to say that when they are with me as I am doing my job, they are in a very dangerous situation that can turn ugly at the drop of a hat.

My feelings have nothing to do with what the government may or may not feel....