Harder To Believe In - God or Aliens?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You believe you are a machine that self-assembed from dust; I know I am a soul beyond time.

A machine, of sorts, yes. I don't think I believe in "souls". Everything you think you know and feel comes directly from the brain.

You believe you are limited by your body, your brain and your social class; I know I am limitless and all encompassing.

Did I say that? You shouldn't try to tell me what I believe. Anyone is only limited by their own drive and/or ambition. But yes, in certain scenarios, physical limitations do exist. Let's see you fly.

You believe you will cease to exist; I know I am eternal.

Again, you're entirely wrong. I said everything is energy, and energy never dies, but merely transforms. That's not to be confused with a "soul".

You believe you inhabit the universe, which is in itself, lifeless; I know I am a part of the universe, and it's life is a part of me.

COMPLETELY WRONG!!!! I believe life isn't defined only by humans. Who's to say a rock isn't somehow alive, just because we can't communicate with it? I'm also quite sure the universe is teaming with life.

You believe what you reside in is reality; I know it's all an illusion of consciousness

I don't believe reality exists. All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, life is only a dream and we are the imaginations of ourselves.

You believe there is no greater purpose to life; I know I am here to attain happiness, become a centre of positivity, and to emanate positivity to others.

I believe your purpose doesn't have to be everyone elses' purpose, but everyone wants to be happy. There doesn't have to be a specific purpose to everything, IMO.

You believe you know; I know that I know nothing, so I keep searching.

You got this completely backwards. Look up the definition of agnostic.
I am a skeptic, but never claim to know if there's a god or not. I don't believe there is, though. Agnostics believe anything is possible, yet they remain skeptical. In other words, I won't commit to something that can't be proven, nor will I claim to know. I do have theories, though. Everyone does.

Who believes in himself? Certainly not you, you are a self-assembled machine, that resides in a lifeless universe, with no sense of purpose or meaning, no thrist for knowledge, leading a monotonous life of a few nanoseconds in the universe, and a prinsoner of brain, society and circumstances, and will malfunction and cease to exist forever. There is little difference between you and a vaccum cleaner. That is how much you believe in yourself. That is how much you value yourself.

No one believes in me more than I do. You know absolutely nothing about me. That much is entirely clear. I have enough confidence and strength for an army.

No you don't, machines don't control their lives, they function on parameters defined by their programmers. As you don't believe you have a mind, there is not much individuality, and there is no control over your own thoughts, which have been locked into rigid thought patterns that has shut down other parts of your brain, like your imagination, and your ability to dream. You're talking like a mindless automonton. Have fun in the Borg.

I'm far from mindless. I think more than most people. I'm analytical by nature, and a natural puzzle solver/troubleshooter. I haven't been programmed as much as you have. I think for myself, analyze my own thoughts, and everyone elses', too. You, on the other hand, believe in god blindly because someone told you he exists.

I do exactly the same, I deal with the "next random event" with the coolness of my mind, except because I believe in myself, and because I have the ability to imagine and dream, I am able to see much further than a single "event" In fact I am able to see the event before it happens.

So, now you're psychic, eh? Gimme a f'ing break!

Oh, and not all believers in god, are christian. See, you were not very much in control of yourself then, you automatically made the assumption, because some Christians pray and ask for forgiveness, then all we believers must all do(close minded thinking, proof for yourself, that will invariabley will not be proof, because a sausage machine, can only do one thing - churn out sausages. Well, sorry to break it to you, but I do not ask for forgiveness; I forgive. I do not pray to God to solve my problems; I help myself. In doing so, it is God who is helping me and it is God who is forgiving.

Why do you need god, if you can help yourself? According to your bible, you must ask forgiveness, or go to hell, isn't it?

It is your mind that creates your reality.

Yes, it sure is. Unfortunately, it's your mind that also creates delusion.

I am happy, peaceful, forgiving, loving, creative, imaginative, wise, and I know about God. You are cynical, pessimestic, critical, sad, lonely, cold, judgemental, angry, unimaginative and ignorant, and you do not believe in God. One of those is positive. Do you want me to tell you which one?

Who said I'm not happy? And I'm surely not unimaginative. Don't even go there. I create music, I play guitar, I write. I only judge those who judge others, as you're doing to me, without knowing $hit about me. I'm not lonely, or unloved. I have good friends and family. Critical? Yes, I definitely am that. Angry? Only when some a$$ insults me by assuming he knows me and tells me a bunch of BS that's not even close to true. You know nothing.



[edit on 28-10-2004 by Damned]

i say there are many things wrong with religion. Like the belief that we are special and created by a god and we are the only of our kind, so doesn't this make religious people more insecure and in need of a ego boost. Plus does any have solid evidence of a god eisting. Indigo CHild so far the only good evidence ive heard from you was that i just do know he/she exists. And indigo watches dont evolve becuase they have no lving components unlike a single celled organism(which we evolveded from, unlike the theory we were always this way" Adam and Eve thoery). Like Eiffel said science is accutually prooveable and although theories can be changed with new knowledge it all can be proven through experiments or other methods. There is no way to prove the existance of god or religion because from my view it is all a creation of mans mind. I think it was created to explain what we couldn't like why it rained and why there were diseases. Lucid Lunacy how does science halt our civilazation. religion has caused many deaths, The holocaust, the crusades, the salem witch trials, or the list goes on for ever. religion has stopped people from making great scientific achievements to protect its own way of thought.

indigo you think you know wverything it seems. you know what makes me happy, whats good and bad, whats true and fake. you constantly say that most people who dont believe in god are angry unhappy people, that are mindless machines, with no values. Which you are wrong about. COMPLETELY WRONG!!! YOU JUST NEED TO LEAVE!!!

riley,

I would appreciate you do not fragment my posts like that and take them out of context. If you are going to quote something, quote the passage it is in, otherwise, don't.

Anyway it appears we have come to an impasse, where your views have become as religious as that, that you reject. As I said before, atheism is often caused by problems in life, and your rejection of religion is in fact a psychological projection of your own religious beliefs of evolution and science.

Like a microbe perhaps? You need to be a little clearer in what you mean.. would a single celled microbe have a conciousness? I doubt it.. it doesn't have a brain for thinking or self awareness it would evolve one as it evolves.

A lesser complex system, like an organism with no life. Life is vastly more complex than mechanical watch.

A faith in something was always there - CREATION

How does my theory fall flat on it's face? A watch isn't an organism.

The theory of evolution states that matter aggregates to form an organic molecule by complete blind chance. If matter can do so then surely it could aggregate to form something less complex. It all ends there for you, once you can prove it, I'll believe you.

Now you can argue that there are natural laws that dictate how matter aggregates. In other words you are suggesting there is something beyond the universe that has always existed that knows what's it's doing. The very concept of "knows" implies consciousness. It all ends there for you again.

At the end of the day your faith is in something that is self-manifested, and then by chance, it manifests life. As you said, there is no need for "god" In the same way I don't see the need of saying, that something that knows, knows without knowing.

A faith in the body of knowledge of others - BIBLE

There IS some understanding.. there are people who study the brain.

There are theories, and there are theories for everything. In the end, it is which theories you subscribe too, or beleive in. My knowings are not theories; they are truths. Common sense, which really is not all that common at all.

Again.. I do not believe in god. and am not interested in gaining anything from it.

You said how does God benefit you. I told you none said he was there to benefit you. Not everything revolves around you.

The faith that evolution brings order out of chaos and assembles matter to form more sophisticated organisms - THE JOURNEY OF THE SOUL

So does everyone get a cupie doll for this? What is achieved by trying to reach god?

What is achieved by evolution? the growth and the potential to become something more complex and better. The language of life is not so mechanical, here what is achieved is the growth of ones soul and learning from experiences to strive for perfection. That is what we are here to do in life; to self-actualize(Maslow's Pyramid) The actualization of the soul is to reunite with it's source - God.

The Faith In Right and Wrong

As I've already said- I have a conscience.. and all actions have consequences. We are social animals.. we have the capability for empathy installed in our brains.. it's why we cringe if we see a stranger get hurt.. and I have enough faith in myself to know that my moral judgement isn't detromental.. besides which the ethics in doctrine have alot to be desired.. and you can teach ethics if need be without relgion.. and I haven't seen

Where did your empathy come from? You are getting closer to what we spiritualists believe now. Can you build an emotional body through the process of random aggregation of matter? Nope. Yet, you believe so, don't you. It is your faith. Yet, it is not logical, as evolution randomly generating empathy, there is no need for it.

Security against what?

Security against your own subconscious fears of the unknown. A common human weakness.

The need to feel special and the faith in universal energy HUMAN CENTRALISM AND LIFE FORCE

I deny a superior conciousness. I accept that all things put out energy.. 'life force' [debatable thought that may be] may be an energy that grew with the onset of life.

If evolution generated you out of blind chance, then why can't it design something superior out of blind chance? Why the double standards now?

Science is wonderful it gave us technology - GOD IS GREAT, HE CREATED EARTH FOR MAN, I PRAY TO HIM]

You do own a computer RIIIGHT?! I think science is wonderful.. and it's always been the survival of the fittist.. and ethics have always been relative.

Absolutely hilarious. So, because science gives me toys, I should worship it? Sorry, I am a bit too grown up for that. Have you very conveniantly forgotten that in our scientific pursuit, we are poisoning the planet, poisoning our race, exhausting the world's resources and developing weapons of mass destruction and using them to destroy everything. Religion did not do that.

Funny that.. clergy men had the same idea when they slaughtered pagens and burned witches.. they were trying to show the naive little heathens how to live sinless lives.. of course they knew best because they were the ones speaking for god. Religion is a mediator between a believer and a god.. if we are all equal to god and share a strong connection we shouldn't need to be TOLD what it is saying.. we'd hear it anyway wouldn't we? Or are believers meant to get it all on heresay?

Well, then these clergy men were not following what they preached. So how do we hold the teachings accountable? If I give you a saw to go cut some wood, so we can light a fire for some homeless people out in the cold, and you go out and use it as a weapon against someone, then do I blame myself, the saw, or you? If humans are killing, slaughtering and hurting others, there is nothing to blame, but themselves. They are still doing it today in the name of science.

Judo christian religions are relevant because they have the run of the world and are a threat/

What does that have anything to do with God? You confuse religion with god. Religion is a man-made tool to understand God.

Scientific Fundementalism - RELIGIOUS FUNDEMENTALISM

A chemical reaction in optimum conditions which caused the spontaneus appearence of a single celled organism.. wonderful and amazing as it is it didn't need god either.

How does this differ from a religious man telling you god made us in 7 days. You both are regurgitating what others have said, man-made concepts. A few centuries ago, you would have been telling me the Earth is flat with the same convinction. Science is not an end; it a means to an end.

At the end of the day, you claim logic, when in fact it is you who are claiming that something came out of nothing, it came with it's own predefined laws of creation, and then this something evolved life out of nothing, and then gave us consciousness and an emotional body and empathy and the ability to imagine. This all happend by absolute chance. You fail yourself with your own logic.

Here is a task for you, put on a blind-fold, get a pack of playing cards, go into a room, and throw them with a great force. Now go around the room, gathering the cards, while building a house of 50 cards. If you can't even do that, yet you are conscious and possess the ability to perceive your universe, how do you expect something that is not conscious, to construct something as sophisticated as an eye by blind chance.

I know right - thousands monkeys at a thousand typewriters in millions of years of time would produce the complete works of shakespeare. Really? Look at this

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WN;GEJO4EWIRWN;FJPFAFAEFMPAEGFAEJOGASEIHGSESEGKPSRGSGAJEFKPwfmlgjioptewjipejo[afwjo[SFWJOU90T43WU9T4WNRGN;RGSJH9SBJO
[XFDM;OXBFJOPSFJOHGNOSRHUJ9SRFU9-RYJOT4EMLRWJIOPAWIHRNSTREOPRJ9REAKJ[SGEJP[SGESEUPSEJOSRTGJOSRTGSRJOGSEJ0[GFSEJ0[SREGJORGJOU0-JO[RGJRDHKTEI0TWURWJAGEJ OSGDNOSGFDSHFJPSHRJ0YEJ0YTGEJO[GEJO[SGDJOTEJOTU
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[t4wjt0t4wi0gjt4wnnosgnisgfdhiftnbedpefo303mgfdmvdxvcml;\adneihrrn;qdnvdkfvfvknstekjbafw[skc,mvcpeiwncpf sepgfnef vdope fgfb efpgfngjv vcpg bpefnb-rg vdpenrgpfdg vpsenhrd bfd ogkngjopaf-FWNOGFW

If I carried on doing that for the rest of my life, I would not even produce the lyrics to "hit me baby one more time" let alone the complete works of shakespeare. In my case, the clear difference being I am not a monkey, and I know what typing is.

The chance of an army of monkeys producing the complete works of shakespeare is so vanishangly small, that according to the laws of probability, it would be impossible. Yet the probability of matter assembling to form life, is infinitely smaller. If it's impossible for a more simple event, why would it be possible for a complex event?

So in the end, what atheism ultimately is, is what it accuses religion of - Illogical, unfounded, and fidelistic. As consciousness is a known phenomena of the universe, and as we know intelligent design is needed to design complex structures, it becomes logical to accept intelligent design as our source, which is objectively verifiable by the very fact that we exist and there is existence. However, atheists have to rely on the existence of an unproven phenomena, yet that disproves itself in their everyday life.

So there you go, the burden of proof lies with you. Now go and build that house of cards for me


[edit on 27-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Science is not God and God is not science. Science is science, which observes the natural world by coming up with new theories on how it works, and testing these theories. So no, 2000 years from now science wont be unreasonable, but its founded on reason. If you could provide me with some examples of experiments and theories people have tested on God I would be glad to hear them, since you keep on talking about them. There are plenty of "theories" on "God", but they are worthless because you cant test them. Im sure there is a pink elephant standing right behind you right now, but everytime you turn to look he hides!!! I swear!!!!!! Do you see where this is going? Much like God. I dont see what questions you want me to answer, all I see is dodges which avoid what im really talking about.

Yes I see where this is going. You are close-minded. All you are doing is repeating yourself. You are not answering my questions, so I am to assume you cannot keep up with me intellectually. If this is not so then review my posts...and actually read them this time.

but they are worthless because you cant test them.

First off you are focused on the tight description of the dogmatic, christian God. You have not opened your ears to the description Indigo_Child and myself have given. Secondly, that's simply a ridiculous statement. Partly because it makes no sense based on the description we gave, and partly because it's so blatantly close-minded.

I have already answered your questions. You have not answered mine. Answer at least some of mine with a shred of insightfulness and I will explain my position in further detail.

I havnet embraced any other deity-religions, because they are all man-made concepts, and they all place limits and constructs on how a person should and shouldnt act/think.

An atheist has placed a limitation on his mind by determining there is not a God without proof. Just as you would argue we have placed a limitation on our mind to believe in God without proof.

Oh another thing. Reason came before science. The ability to observe and learn from it is part of human nature, and is not some recent invention of the scientific method.



[edit on 103131p://29u36 by Lucid Lunacy]

Indigo Child: Evolution states absolutely nothing about what we came from, it only dicusses how new species form from random mutations over a given period of time. Abiogenisis dicusses that. And the only thing thats random about evolution is mutations, nature takes care of the rest, and nature, certainly isnt random. You can believe in yourself without believing in God. People dont need a belief in God to lead productive lifes, and they also dont need God to see the goodness of some of humanity, and the possiblities that humanity has to grow and mature. And leading productive, happy lifes, wont nessesarily lead people to God. Im happy that you're happy. It doesnt affect my life so I dont care either way, regardless of your worldview. I think the thing were caught up on is our definition of God. For example, there is plenty of things we dont currently understand, where the universe came from, etc. I call this unknown. I think you want to call this God. Which is fine, it may well be. I just prefer to call it unknown.

Lucid lunacy: I dont see the point in dicussing any of this any further, its obviously going in circles. No matter how you want to spin it, you cant study God. Because you're essentially studying something outside of your preception and ability to study. If God exists, it will always be unknown, and prefer to call unknown things just that: unknown. It's like looking at a painting and seeing everything clearly except for the face, theres a hole where the face should be. You cant study the whats inside the hole, only what you can see around it.

I just prefer to call it unknown.
You acknowledge it is an unknown. You acknowledge the unknown exists. You prefer to call this unknown and we are calling this God.

Can you objectively prove this belief that you have? The belief there is an unknown. Can you objectively test this uknown that you have acknowledged exists? In all your posts you have emphasized total importance in being able to objectively prove it. So do so. If you can't, your case doesn't hold much weight.

You fail to see the importance of this unknown element. Science takes something magical, something unknown, and it brings it into the realm of the known by labeling it. It gives it a label we can relate to in the now. It is fact, but only in the now. Science is not accurate for the people in the past and will not be accurate for the people of the future, for it is prone to change. Now why would this system of science need to evolve, to change? Because it's not giving birth to the facts, it's just describing it (and it continues to describe it better). You want logic? I will give you logic. Science is a system of labels. The very thing science is describing existed before science came around to think about it. It simply is and always has been. It's beyond labels. Beyond the labels of science; beyond the labels of any religion or spiritual system. Including the label of "God".

It's funny that you use scientific reasoning to back up your case. Since science changes its views constantly. Not to mention our latest and greatest science, Quantum Physics, is leaning more towards a God then a universe based on chance.

Refer to my signature.

[edit on 013131p://28u34 by Lucid Lunacy]

Can I prove that unknowns exist? Of course, they are things we dont known, therefore, we call them unkwown. We dont have to speculate that iggy the magic elf in the sky did so and so, we just state that we currently dont know. Of course science changes, how our we suppose to learn? I prefer learning over saying "Goddidit!!!111". And who knows, maybe one day we will have enough evidence to say that the universe has a cause, but until then im not going to throw my hands in the air and ask sylvia browne about my past incarnations and who my spiritual guide is. We still have a lot to learn, theres no point in giving up now and just throwing around all these God terms. Im not saying something higher doesnt exist. Hell, im not even confident in saying that, I just see no point in speculating about what God is, or what God does, and speaking with authority like you know, when it has no real basis.

Firstly I want to say that I think this is a great thread.

Secondly I just want to say, that my personal belief is that humans created the idea of god as a form of manuipulation and control. Mind control isn't really a new idea thought up by some politicians and secret agencies to get what they want.

The Human Race will NEVER discover the origins of our universe, and to bleieve that we are sole users of this vast place is simply lunacy. I believe in the evolution of man, and I also believe in spirit and soul, which forms more than our physical selves.

I had alot of other things to say on this, but have been covered through out the thread. I think this is a very healthy thread to disucss, but really guys, we arent going to get any answers.

M@

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
riley,

I would appreciate you do not fragment my posts like that and take them out of context. If you are going to quote something, quote the passage it is in, otherwise, don't.

I certainly didn't take your 'all athiests are ignorant' comment out of context or anything else for that matter.. and if anyone else thinks I misinterpreted they can back you up. Any takers? All I have been doing is addressing every single 'relevant' point you've made in order to be thorough, my posts are long enough.. though I will try in future but I would appreciate it if you would try stick to RELEVANT points.

A lesser complex system, like an organism with no life. Life is vastly more complex than mechanical watch.

How to you get an organism without life?

Now you can argue that there are natural laws that dictate how matter aggregates. In other words you are suggesting there is something beyond the universe that has always existed that knows what's it's doing. The very concept of "knows" implies consciousness. It all ends there for you again.

I have bread.. I put it in the toaster and it mysteriously turns to golden brown toast and is the most perfect and ideal breakfast.. therefore it must not have been just a chemical reaction caused by heat.. it must have been god. It just KNEW what to do! I don't see the creation of life any different than any other chemical reaction. For example I see the sun and planets as another possible 'form' of life altogether with their own life span.. and the solar sytem as well [then galaxy etc.] .. or water evaporating. My perception of it isn't limited to organisms.

There are theories, and there are theories for everything. In the end, it is which theories you subscribe too, or beleive in. My knowings are not theories; they are truths. Common sense, which really is not all that common at all.

I fail to see how you get 'truth' from fables.

You said how does God benefit you. I told you none said he was there to benefit you. Not everything revolves around you.

Unless I can somehow, miraculously put myself in someone else's conciousness and see through someone else's eyes.. sorry but yes it does.. just as your world revolves around you.. it's not a matter of selfishness as you have inferred.. it's physically not having any choice.

What is achieved by evolution? the growth and the potential to become something more complex and better. The language of life is not so mechanical, here what is achieved is the growth of ones soul and learning from experiences to strive for perfection. That is what we are here to do in life; to self-actualize(Maslow's Pyramid) The actualization of the soul is to reunite with it's source - God.

I don't assume that evolution leads to anything specific.. I do believe that the purpose of spirituality may be to encourage evolvment. We have a 'gland' in our brains that stimulates it. As I said earlier.. 'god' could be and evolutionary carrot that we'll chase to the ends of this univese.

Where did your empathy come from? You are getting closer to what we spiritualists believe now. Can you build an emotional body through the process of random aggregation of matter? Nope. Yet, you believe so, don't you. It is your faith. Yet, it is not logical, as evolution randomly generating empathy, there is no need for it.

Actually.. there IS reason for it. The human race would not exist without it. We are SOCIAL animals and have always required co-operation to survive.

Security against your own subconscious fears of the unknown. A common human weakness.

Actually thats not an athiests trait.. we EMBRACE the unknown and don't explain it away with 'god done it'.. we are not afraid of digging deeper.

If evolution generated you out of blind chance, then why can't it design something superior out of blind chance? Why the double standards now?

No double standards.. I actually meant a deity- and if aliens come and say hello via spacecraft I'll happily concede that there are superior forms of life.

Absolutely hilarious. So, because science gives me toys, I should worship it? Sorry, I am a bit too grown up for that. Have you very conveniantly forgotten that in our scientific pursuit, we are poisoning the planet, poisoning our race, exhausting the world's resources and developing weapons of mass destruction and using them to destroy everything. Religion did not do that.

Science has also provided options that don't pollute the planet.. unfortuanly corperations are what prevent them being utilised.

Well, then these clergy men were not following what they preached. So how do we hold the teachings accountable?

Actually.. although it's been a while since I read the entire bible I do remember it condoning slaughtering people.. and as the vatican at the time gave the official nod for these attrocities.. it was most definently written somewhere in doctrine.. not a move has it ever made without it's scholars. The current pope has also apologised for these crimes.. and therefore the church itself has accepted total accountability.

How does this differ from a religious man telling you god made us in 7 days. You both are regurgitating what others have said, man-made concepts. A few centuries ago, you would have been telling me the Earth is flat with the same convinction. Science is not an end; it a means to an end.

See.. this is the problem with being expected not to cut up what you say.. again you put another assumption of what I would have done a few bloody centuries ago which is just idiotic and a waste of space.. science is not an means to an end.. there IS no end. The very concept of it is to have FACTUAL explanations for things in place of taking the easy and sentimental option with 'god did it'. That is the difference between my theory of evolution and god myths.. I don't accept it as an absolute truth but at least it's as little more plausable and has some REAL truths to back it up.

At the end of the day, you claim logic, when in fact it is you who are claiming that something came out of nothing, it came with it's own predefined laws of creation, and then this something evolved life out of nothing, and then gave us consciousness and an emotional body and empathy and the ability to imagine. This all happend by absolute chance. You fail yourself with your own logic.

No.. life wouldn't have become something out of nothing. Nothing is space in between something. Life needs water, light.. heat etc to support it.. atmosphere. Hardly nothing. Things in the universe don't just happen by chance.. it is ALL action and reaction.. though in saying that.. it does NOT immeditaely mean it has divine purpose. It is causality.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
As I said before, atheism is often caused by problems in life, and your rejection of religion is in fact a psychological projection of your own religious beliefs of evolution and science.

This is complete and utter BS! I could say the same of religion. My cousin was never religious, until she hit rock bottom and met some girl who turned her on to religion at one of the worst times of her life. This is how most people, who aren't raised religiously, become religious. She was taken advantage of, at a moment of weakness. Now, since she feels better, she contributes her life getting better to god. What she failed to realize is; when life is really, really bad, it always gets better.

Riley, it appears I have surpassed everything you have to offer:

I have bread.. I put it in the toaster and it mysteriously turns to golden brown toast and is the most perfect and ideal breakfast.. therefore it must not have been just a chemical reaction caused by heat.. it must have been god. It just KNEW what to do!

A toaster is an intelligently designed machine. Again, you are strengthening the very thing that you seek to uproot. You have ignored a very crucial argument offered in my post, and instead repeated what you said before. It does not matter how many different ways you use to say the same thing, it's still the same thing, and it shows you are struggling to keep up, as well as your inability to reason.

Unless I can somehow, miraculously put myself in someone else's conciousness and see through someone else's eyes.. sorry but yes it does.. just as your world revolves around you.. it's not a matter of selfishness as you have inferred.. it's physically not having any choice.

Your own subjective universe revolves around you, not the objective universe. If you feel, if there is a God, there he should be keeping you happy, but as you are not, then he must not be. That is something you arrive at subjectively, that does not reflect the objective universe.

What is achieved by evolution? the growth and the potential to become something more complex and better. The language of life is not so mechanical, here what is achieved is the growth of ones soul and learning from experiences to strive for perfection. That is what we are here to do in life; to self-actualize(Maslow's Pyramid) The actualization of the soul is to reunite with it's source - God.

I don't assume that evolution leads to anything specific..

You assume evolution leads to inorganic matter forming into organic matter, then that forming a self replicating organic molecule, then then aggregating to form living organisms, then aggregating further to form consciousness, and then further to form emotions. So obviously evolution is a progression and thus leads to more complexity.

Actually.. there IS reason for it. The human race would not exist without it. We are SOCIAL animals and have always required co-operation to survive.

Ants and bees are social animals, but they are not emotional animals, they are working animals functioning in a hive collective. You contradict yourself now, first you say "survival of the fittest" which thus means a human animal would do all to ensure his survival, how does associating and taking on board others problems and feelng compassion for animals, fit into the paradigm of competition and the food chain. It doesn't, thus why does man need empathy?

Actually thats not an athiests trait.. we EMBRACE the unknown and don't explain it away with 'god done it'.. we are not afraid of digging deeper.

You embrace the unknown? Yet, you claim to know? Your origin is unknown, yet you claim to know what can't be your origin. Embrance the unknown? Good one.

No double standards.. I actually meant a deity- and if aliens come and say hello via spacecraft I'll happily concede that there are superior forms of life.

There are superior forms of life, we know that, because we have a multitide of life forms on our planet. Why would evolution stop at us?

Here is a thinking point for you: If evolution is designed so we can survive, then surely the ultimate survival would be life after death; even computers have transferable hardrives.

Science has also provided options that don't pollute the planet.. unfortuanly corperations are what prevent them being utilised.

It was science that polluted the planet in the first place. Anyway, I find this reall funny, so I'm just going to say this and nullify your original argument: Religion has also provided options that don't provoke wars. It all ends there for that one.

Actually.. although it's been a while since I read the entire bible I do remember it condoning slaughtering people.. and as the vatican at the time gave the official nod for these attrocities.. it was most definently written somewhere in doctrine.. not a move has it ever made without it's scholars. The current pope has also apologised for these crimes.. and therefore the church itself has accepted total accountability.

Really? Prove it. Scientists have often given the official nod to the construction of nuclear weapons. This one ends here too.

See.. this is the problem with being expected not to cut up what you say.. again you put another assumption of what I would have done a few bloody centuries ago which is just idiotic and a waste of space.. science is not an means to an end.. there IS no end. The very concept of it is to have FACTUAL explanations for things in place of taking the easy and sentimental option with 'god did it'. That is the difference between my theory of evolution and god myths.. I don't accept it as an absolute truth but at least it's as little more plausable and has some REAL truths to back it up.

Science is a means to an end, by understanding the universe, like the GUT(Grand unified Theory) Does not mean science will of course, what is happening is quite the opposite, it is affirming what we spiritualists knew all along.

No.. life wouldn't have become something out of nothing. Nothing is space in between something. Life needs water, light.. heat etc to support it.. atmosphere. Hardly nothing.

Where did the light/heat come from? Here we go again.

Things in the universe don't just happen by chance.. it is ALL action and reaction.. though in saying that.. it does NOT immeditaely mean it has divine purpose. It is causality.

LOL - A few posts ago you were saying it was chance. Ok, so they don't happen by chance? Well, thank you for saying that.

Too many contradictions here, and a lot of funny stuff too. You believe there is something that gave you everything you need, even emotions to colour your life, and empathy to help others. Yet you do not want to admit that it did. How appreciative LOL

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Forget it, Riley. This guy is amongst the blindest I've ever seen. There's no point in arguing with him. He sees only what he wants to see, hears only what he wants to hear, and knows only what he's heard.

"Ants are bees are social animals, but they are not emotional animals, they are working animals functioning in a hive collective. You contradict yourself now, first you say "survival of the fittest" which thus means a human animal would do all to ensure his survival, how does associating and taking on board others problems and feelng compassion for animals, fit into the paradigm of competition and the foos chain. It doesn't, thus why does man need empathy?"

You know, I have no problem with you believing in God, but you really should read up on evolution, the evidence is overwhelming. "Survival of the fittest" doesnt mean "slice your mothers throat and take her food", its talking about nature, and say for instance, food gets scarce on the land, and the only food left that can support an isolated species is on trees, through random mutations, the animal with the longer neck will be able to reach up into trees for food, this mutation gets spread through the isolated population, so as this progresses over a period of time, the necks get longer and longer, and as a result, the animals less fit for their environment (shorter necks, etc.) die off and the more fit pass their genes on which best suit their environment which ensures their survival. And now, we have giraffes. Somewhere along the line of human evolution, the species started to realize that they had a better chance of survival by helping each other out. You know, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It's really not that hard to understand. I dont know much about all of this, but its fascinating and if you're interested you should pick up a book or search the net to learn more.

Somewhere along the line of human evolution, the species started to realize that they had a better chance of survival by helping each other out. You know, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It's really not that hard to understand. I dont know much about all of this, but its fascinating and if you're interested you should pick up a book or search the net to learn more.

Empathy is a selfless act of compassion and relating to others. Not a survival benefit. It is the function of our emotional self, and it colours our life, and allows us to enjoy each other and feel interconnected, not just with each other, but with other life and the universe itself. Did evolution also have spiritual goals?

The reason God is such a universally held belief amongst the socio-political spectrum, is because when we see such perfection, and knowing that such perfection in daily life is never by blind chance, we arrive at the common sense conclusion, that there must be a creator or a higher force at work. God is essentially common sense.

You said a few posts back that you accept there are unknowns, and that God may will be the unknown. I respect that, because that is a truth. You do not have to believe in God, he is an impersonal life force anyhow, but personal if you want to make that contact with him. All you have to do lead a positive life and show compassion, because these are the qualities of creation. These are what promote your well being and the well being of others. It is the creative force within you, and me, that will help us evolve into better and more happy beings, and if there really is a God, you will be lead to him. As I was.

Are you going to debate that being positive is not good for your well being? If you're not, we can consider this discussion done.

Empathy: Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. This is a survival benefit. It increases the chances of survival of an isolated species, tribe, whatever. It allows for more cooperation, sharing, peace etc. How does this not benefit a species? Notice I said species, because individuals dont evovle, populations do. Being positive is good for your well being, correct. I guess this dicussion is over.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
You know, I have no problem with you believing in God, but you really should read up on evolution, the evidence is overwhelming. "Survival of the fittest" doesnt mean "slice your mothers throat and take her food", its talking about nature, and say for instance, food gets scarce on the land, and the only food left that can support an isolated species is on trees, through random mutations, the animal with the longer neck will be able to reach up into trees for food, this mutation gets spread through the isolated population, so as this progresses over a period of time, the necks get longer and longer, and as a result, the animals less fit for their environment (shorter necks, etc.) die off and the more fit pass their genes on which best suit their environment which ensures their survival. And now, we have giraffes. Somewhere along the line of human evolution, the species started to realize that they had a better chance of survival by helping each other out. You know, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It's really not that hard to understand. I dont know much about all of this, but its fascinating and if you're interested you should pick up a book or search the net to learn more.

There was a wonderful "Nova - The Missing Link" on just the other night. They discussed all the different species of fish that evolved and grew legs and feet, even before they had the ability to breathe air. That pretty much ruled out the theory that evolution is forced by environment, as lungs would be much more important than legs, if the water was getting lesser. Keep in mind, these are not merely theories. They have real fossils of many different species of fish that turned into something else, for no apparent reason. So, we had what appeared to be lizards with fish bodies and gills. This is one of the finest examples of true evolution. Of course, you have to live for millions of years to actually see evolution. As we all know, humans don't need their appendix nor gall blader anymore, among other little things. Is this evolution too? The appendix must've been for something, once upon a time. Scientists think that, long ago, it may have helped your human ancestors digest leaves and grasses. I won't be surprised if people are born without them one day, or if they start being useful for something.

www.pbs.org...

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Damned]

*Indigo_Child check out my signature, I think you can appreciate it.

I believe my signature is the pinnacle of what we are talking about...in a nutshell.

Absolutely. I was discussing with a professional hypotist today about the same, and his view was that every structure in the universe, from humans, to DNA, to conches on the beach, hurricanes, solar systems, obeys universal mathematical ratios, like golden section, pi, phi(Fibonacci progression ratio) Intelligent design is present in every part of the universe. It does make for good slapstisk humour with the darwinists though.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Why would you deny evolution when you can always just say it was "god" causing the evolving, just as believers do with the big bang? There is so much evidence of evolution, it's not even questionable, for most logical people.

"The reason God is such a universally held belief amongst the socio-political spectrum, is because when we see such perfection, and knowing that such perfection in daily life is never by blind chance, we arrive at the common sense conclusion, that there must be a creator or a higher force at work. God is essentially common sense."

The seeming perfection we see in the world has not always been that way. example 100 millions years ago when dinosaurs were living we probably wouldn't see that world as perfection. Dinosaurs being eaten everywhere at what not, over time we grew to the world we have now. And is it possible that this world only seems perfect because its what we are use to. People of the past probably would see thsi modern world as a utopia, but as we grow smarter future people oon earth may have a different opiion of perfection as to see our world as a complete $Hit hole.