Harder To Believe In - God or Aliens?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Hahahahah people are atheists because they're unhappy? I think I've heard it all, dont equate your life to mine, its nothing alike. I was actually un-happy and in a constant state of worry when I was christian, I dont believe anymore, and im a much happier person than I ever was when I believed.

That is also called dissonance in psychology (systematized common sense) exaggerating the benefits of one, and the shortcomings of the other, to justify the current. I have heard the same from many converts, whether it is another religion, the occult or indeed atheism.

Though don't get me wrong, it is not all atheists that are unhappy, just many I have encountered and studied. When someone demonstrates with passion against a belief, it is most likely, there is a personal issue behind it.

What is the purpose of the life of an atheist, he breathes, he eats, he sleeps, a nanosecond later, he's gone. It's as if he never existed. If knowing that makes you happy, then please define what happiness is to you. I am not slamming your beliefs, you are free to believe anything you want, I am just intrigued.

What makes us as humans beings are our beliefs and actions, every belief and action has a positive or negative effect on our consciousness. Are you expecting me to believe someone who believes they are machines, living in a captialist world torn apart by war, greed and hate, with no real purpose, is happy? What is being happy to you, watching football and drinking a beer?

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Again, you're stereotyping and generalizing atheists into something they arent, and interjecting your idea of what happiness is and isnt. I define my own purpose, much like you do. Im just here to learn, and enjoy my life. I dont expect you to believe someone is happy who believes they are a machine, living in a capitialist world torn apart by war, greed and hate, with no real purpose. Do you expect me to believe that all atheists think this way? Or even most of them? People are people, you seem to have some personal issues against atheism.

Do you expect me to believe that all atheists think this way? Or even most of them? People are people, you seem to have some personal issues against atheism.

Happiness is a state of contentment and peace that originates from within. I see no need to philosophize it . Note, I am making a fine distinction between those who see no need to believe in god, and those who do not believe in god. If someone elects to believe in the non-existence of something, and demonstate it, then there is likely a personal issue involved, relating to the belief itself.

Many a times, I have seen believers curse god, because of some troubled times in their lifes or trauma. Some even lose faith, and become atheists, and demonstrate their contempt for God or beliefs in him. When all along it was simply because of inabilty to deal with their own life. God is just their scapegoat to release their aggression and frustration.

Everything you do and think provides a commentary on your life. If you like rock music for instance, it is likely an embodiment of the noise in your own mind. Do you think this is a generalization? No, it it has been proven in psychological case studies. Fans of rock music, not all mind you, tend to be prone to depression and suicide. If someone espouses any forms of prejudice, they are more likely to be racist and dogmatic.

Negative qualities like anger, ignorance, hate, judgementalism weigh down on consciousness, how can someone like that be happy at all. One really needs to define what happiness is. If a serial killer claims he is happy when he kills, is it because he's really happy, or he seeks release from the unhappiness within.

Life really is as simple as good and bad, happy and sad. Hence, for me, it stands to reason, that many atheists are not happy at all. Drinking a beer, watching football, is not happiness, it is a distraction In the same way debating a topic, and winning a debate, is not about happiness, it's about ones insecurity. We all wear masks to hide from ourselves, we all ignore things that threaten to unveil that mask, or tailor everything to fit our predispositions. In the end, the truth comes out, at the final hours. You will then find out everything about your self.

I am certainly not debating here. I am just recounting some truths, and If they don't want to be heard, I am not going to waste my breath. A saying goes, one single tree on fire, can burn an entire forest down. I do not want to be burned down along with everyone else here, fueling each others inferno. In the end, no one is going to be changed from this thread, it just becomes a battleground for the believers and non-believers to duel. That is one battle I do not want to waste anymore energy on.

Someone once told me, and this was when I was atheist, the loudest people are those who come in later on into the show. I am going to be quiet.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Really Indigo Child i want to get mean, but you are completely wwrong. You are just becoming steriotypical at this point. How do you know what causes people happiness. Maybe drinking beer and watching football makes some people happy, maybe killing makes some people happy. You are just convinced that people are atheists because they are unhappy. I could just as easily say people that believe in god are insucure and they need something to make them feel good when they have no answers or are very afraid. I am an atheist, but its not because im unhappy, its because I dont want to believe in god when there s no proof that he exists.

Again, Indigo Child, you're trying to tell the rest of the world what should make them happy and what shouldnt. Atheism does not equal unhappiness, people are people, simply put. You cant just say people dont believe because they arent happy. My personal experience and my perception of reality according to my senses has formed my worldview. Some people may not believe for irrational reasons, but you're telling us everyone who doesnt believe is irrational and unhappy. You can define happiness, but you cant tell us what makes people happy. I'd even go as far to say that people with prejudice against Christianity have legitimate reasons.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Again, Indigo Child, you're trying to tell the rest of the world what should make them happy and what shouldnt.

Am I? I am basically saying something of common sense; positive makes people happy; negative doesn't. As I said, I don't need to philosophize happiness, it's a meaningless exercise that leads nowhere, like with many concepts of philosophy.

Atheism does not equal unhappiness, people are people, simply put. You cant just say people dont believe because they arent happy.

You are taking what I am saying out of context. I am saying, many atheists I have encountered and studied, who feel the need to demonstrate their views against god, often have personal issues related to the belief.
With all due respect to you, your situation is quite similar; disgruntled ex-christian. Did you try other religions or other pro-god belief systems? No. Your personal battle is against Christianity and what it did to you. I am sure there is a whole pandoras box waiting to be opened. Leave God out of it will you.

I was born into a religion, and I then turned away from it, and became an atheist, not because of the religion, but because of what I felt was a grim godless reality. This is the single biggest justification atheists try to use to disprove God. They are only using this, because they believe evil is present in their reality. How can they be happy then?

Whenever I talk to people, they tell me life is going okay, and okay usually means, I have problems and a lot of stress, but hey, that's life. Happiness to them means, having less problems and stress or being distracted. That is how life functions, we work in the day, and then distract ourselves at night. It's not happiness, if it was, socieity wouldn't be such a mess and crime would not be so rampant.

I can say without hesitation that not many people are happy in this age, regardless of what they personally say. How can they be, in a world torn apart by war, greed and other social and world evils. Happiness is not something you buy or acquire, happiness is what comes from within, it is a state of mind, a positive state of mind, that facilitates peace and well being.
Can you seriously argue with me that a serial killer can be happy? If he was happy, he wouldn't be a serial killer. It is his subconscious mind that is full of the grief and pain, and he suppresses it by displacing the external emotions onto others, giving him/her a false sense of happiness.

I know of depressed people who tell me how happy they are when listening to suicide music. That is happiness? All it is doing is reaffirming to him how much pain they are in, that is why they resonate with it.

but you're telling us everyone who doesnt believe is irrational and unhappy. You can define happiness, but you cant tell us what makes people happy.

No, I have not said they are all irrational or unhappy, I am saying(repeat) that some of them are. Remember, we live in a universe, where everything is a belief. Is it not irrational for someone to choose a belief that costs them more than they can stake and where there is nothing to win? Sorry I just don't see the sense in choosing something that devalues you as a person. If you sat down with a counsellor or hypnotherpist, and even got a glimpse of your dark subconcious world, you would find who you really are, and I don't think "happy" is going to be it.


[edit on 26-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Disgruntled ex christian? Thats funny, you come across as a disgruntled ex-atheist. I havnet embraced any other deity-religions, because they are all man-made concepts, and they all place limits and constructs on how a person should and shouldnt act/think. I dont prefer to call myself anything, because im still open to the possiblity of a lot, I just dont see any evidence of a God, much less a Christian God. I've been reading up on Buddhism and other eastern philopshys a lot lately, and I enjoy most of the teachings. It would seem irrational to chose something that makes you unhappy,but then again, I dont think its much of a choice. I think its fine that you believe in God and that you're happy with your life and it works for you, but I cant understand how you're trying to tell everyone else what should work for them and what shouldnt. You act as if you know God exists, and that the only way to be positive and contribute to society is if you believe in some sort of God. Im content with my life, and im happy you are too. But lets leave it at that.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by Alec Eiffel]

Thats funny, you come across as a disgruntled ex-atheist. I havnet embraced any other deity-religions, because they are all man-made concepts

Explain to me how atheism isn't a man-made concept. If you will.

and they all place limits and constructs on how a person should and shouldnt act/think.

That's definetly something I try to avoid as a spiritual person who believes in God. Although I can't speak for us all =)

An atheist has placed a limitation on his mind by determining there is not a God without proof. Just as you would argue we have placed a limitation on our mind to believe in God without proof.

I dont prefer to call myself anything, because im still open to the possiblity of a lot, I just dont see any evidence of a God, much less a Christian God.

That's more the mentality of an Agnostic...

I don't see evidence of a Christian God either. I don't consider anything I havnt personally experienced as evidence. So the God I speak of is God. Not the Christian God, or Allah, or Krishna, etc. I also read alot into buddhism, taoism, and other eastern systems. I like to read em all.






[edit on 093131p://26u35 by Lucid Lunacy]

Explain to me how atheism isn't a man-made concept. If you will.

It is. But that doesnt change the fact that what I believe relies on things that can be tested, and not faith. It just seems more rational to me. And the fact that religions are man-made only furthers my point, they arent from God, theyre from men with imaginative minds.

An atheist has placed a limitation on his mind by determining there is not a God without proof. Just as you would argue we have placed a limitation on our mind to believe in God without proof.

But, I dont need to prove anything, I cant prove a negative. If you believe God exists, then you should be able to prove a positive.Which obviously, cant be proved. So it would seem rational to conclude that it doesnt exist. Yet, some people still believe for irrational reasons.

That's more the mentality of an Agnostic...

Well, I dont believe a God exists. I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so. Agnostics have no stance, I have one.


Another point which I think is being missed, is that I dont care if people believe in something which cant be proved, as long as it doesnt tell other people what to believe with out any proof. Im mainly talking about fundamentalist religions like Christianity and Islam. They havent done humanity any good, obviously.

Originally posted by portfreezer
Has This Society Gone Crazy??????????????? First of all this country The United States was built on god!!!!!!!!!! If you don't belive in god ur not an american citizen!!! Ya I know how we have the right to speech and freedom of religion but those laws are total crap!!!! We have god on our money, god in our courts, YOU HAVE TO SWEAR ON THE BIBLE TO BECOME PRESIDENT!!!! There is also god in our pledge. I mean omfg if u don't think their is a god then you better sit back and look at the facts!!!! BECAUSE THEIR IS A GOD AND IF U DON'T BELIEVE IN HIM THEN HAVE FUN WHEN U DIE BECAUSE UR GOING TO BURN IN HELL FOR ITERNITY!!!!!

(That is my opinion I am not trying to attack or piss off athiests but its true)

[edit on 22-10-2004 by portfreezer]

Freaky
First I�d just like to say. Just because the majority of the US chooses to believe in "god" It could just their way of looking for "help" a sense of hope after death? Govenment could choose to say they belive. Mabye their way to keep us from panic thinking there is nothing after death?
Second since when was "God" a He?
Third! I know it sux, Religion is turning into peer pressure these days..
To get Baptized its usually the parents making this choice for you at 5. Shoved in catholic day cares. There may be a different Heaven you are suppose to attend.. kids have no choice these days.
Third...chill out... I think you have bigger things to worry about like how this world will probably end in the next 12 years.... Good thing you�re a banned member. (Freedom of speech has its limits, when you offend. All people don't have to believe in �God� especially your God)
Thats freedom of Mind.

And the fact that religions are man-made only furthers my point, they arent from God, theyre from men with imaginative minds.

Men with imaginative minds. Is that not the very thing that gave birth to the scientific method? If not, could you explain why? Could you explain why with testable evidence?

But that doesnt change the fact that what I believe relies on things that can be tested, and not faith.

Hardly. What testing do you speak of? Subjective interpretation? Or the objective, testable, scientific method and other such methodologies. If the later, then you have put faith in the accuracy of these methodologies. Surely you are not a master mathematician, physicist, biologist; a master of every objective body of knowledge that you could say with subjective certainty that they are all completely accurate. Therefore you have put your faith in their accuracy.

Well, I dont believe a God exists. I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so.

I don't believe in our static notion of time. Although I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so.

I feel one should not deny the exsistence of both the objective and the subjective. One should understand how they both ultimately create our idea of reality. I feel I have done this and I came to the conclusion there is a God.

If you believe God exists, then you should be able to prove a positive.Which obviously, cant be proved.

God is the creator; all that is. Therefore all that is objective is positive proof. This is of course my belief.

You say it's absurd to believe in God because it has no objective reality. But you could tell me about something that is objectively true like...

Light sticks containing 9,10-bis(phenylethynyl)anthracene dye provide a green glow. Bending the light stick cracks open a container of hydrogen peroxide that mixes with oxalic phthalate ester to form high-energy molecules that excite the dye molecules. The dye emits green light as it returns to the ground state.

...and I would tell you that's absurd, I don't believe that's why it happens. You might say: well the path is a difficult one, but if you study chemistry diligently at a university and get your degree, you will understand it subjectively to be objectively so. And I would say the same thing of God. Question is: Have you diligently studied God; have I diligently studied the absence of a God?

Another point which I think is being missed, is that I dont care if people believe in something which cant be proved
You say you don't care but then you give a condition...
as long as it doesnt tell other people what to believe with out any proof.
So are you really tolerant of peoples views on this?

Im mainly talking about fundamentalist religions like Christianity and Islam. They havent done humanity any good, obviously.

Heh. They have done good man. They have also done alot of bad.

BTW: I am pretty sure it goes like this:
Atheists say "there is no God".
Agnostics say "I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so".

Ever heard of the term "circular logic"? Here is an example. "The bible is true because the bible says its true... " Yeah, it sounded just as funny the first time I heard it.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
And the fact that religions are man-made only furthers my point, they arent from God, theyre from men with imaginative minds.

Men with imaginative minds. Is that not the very thing that gave birth to the scientific method? If not, could you explain why? Could you explain why with testable evidence?

But that doesnt change the fact that what I believe relies on things that can be tested, and not faith.

Hardly. What testing do you speak of? Subjective interpretation? Or the objective, testable, scientific method and other such methodologies. If the later, then you have put faith in the accuracy of these methodologies. Surely you are not a master mathematician, physicist, biologist; a master of every objective body of knowledge that you could say with subjective certainty that they are all completely accurate. Therefore you have put your faith in their accuracy.

Well, I dont believe a God exists. I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so.

I don't believe in our static notion of time. Although I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so.

I feel one should not deny the exsistence of both the objective and the subjective. One should understand how they both ultimately create our idea of reality. I feel I have done this and I came to the conclusion there is a God.

If you believe God exists, then you should be able to prove a positive.Which obviously, cant be proved.

God is the creator; all that is. Therefore all that is objective is positive proof. This is of course my belief.

You say it's absurd to believe in God because it has no objective reality. But you could tell me about something that is objectively true like...

Light sticks containing 9,10-bis(phenylethynyl)anthracene dye provide a green glow. Bending the light stick cracks open a container of hydrogen peroxide that mixes with oxalic phthalate ester to form high-energy molecules that excite the dye molecules. The dye emits green light as it returns to the ground state.

...and I would tell you that's absurd, I don't believe that's why it happens. You might say: well the path is a difficult one, but if you study chemistry diligently at a university and get your degree, you will understand it subjectively to be objectively so. And I would say the same thing of God. Question is: Have you diligently studied God; have I diligently studied the absence of a God?

Another point which I think is being missed, is that I dont care if people believe in something which cant be proved
You say you don't care but then you give a condition...
as long as it doesnt tell other people what to believe with out any proof.
So are you really tolerant of peoples views on this?

Im mainly talking about fundamentalist religions like Christianity and Islam. They havent done humanity any good, obviously.

Heh. They have done good man. They have also done alot of bad.

BTW: I am pretty sure it goes like this:
Atheists say "there is no God".
Agnostics say "I would change my view if I had reasonable evidence to believe so".

You're completely missing the point of everything I posted.

1. Science relies on things which can be tested, not on things which sound appealing and completely un-verfiable.
2. I dont have time to reproduce every single experiment I've ever read about. I do, however, read them and ask if they make sense, take into account what they could be missing, and see if the results fall in line with other verified scientific facts. This is the whole point of science.
3. You can study chemistry, biology, cosmology, etc. You cant study God. You can study religious texts which are outdated and apparently suited for the time it was written ,though.
4. Of course I care when people with religious conviction are trying to tell me how to live my life, when they have zero evidence of anything they claim. So yes, im intolerant of people who tell me what to do and tell others way to do when they have zero evidence. I wouldnt care even if it was reasonable, but it obviously isnt, because it was written 2000 years ago. Believe what you want, dont push it on me.
5. I dont believe in God. Regardless of what I think, I could be wrong, I could be right. I could never know for sure, im not going to act like I do. I would, however, change my views if I was given evidence of a God.

Realize, also, that im rejecting the strict dogmatic view of God. Im open to the possiblity of "something higher"..kind of. I just get annoyed when people try to tell me how to life my live.

You're completely missing the point of everything I posted.

On the contrary I don't think you understood my points. Could you at least respond to the questions I posed, when you get the chance. Give me some kind of objective proof that you read my post =) I feel I understand your position and I feel my questions addressed your point.

1. Science relies on things which can be tested, not on things which sound appealing and completely un-verfiable.

What I outlined in my previous post was that the same method one would take to subjectively know the accuracy of something objective, like science, would also be the methodlogy one would use to understand God. Science is science because enough people found it appealing to take something un-verifiable and then by observing nature,determine it's verifiable (this type of reasoning is not unique to science, it's human nature). Billions of people used this method to determine the accuracy of science; billions of people used this method to determine the accuracy of God.

I dont have time to reproduce every single experiment I've ever read about. I do, however, read them and ask if they make sense, take into account what they could be missing, and see if the results fall in line with other verified scientific facts. This is the whole point of science.

Refer to my previous post on this.

I would like to point out that all you have to do is replace the words scientific, science with God.

I do, however, read them and ask if they make sense, take into account what they could be missing, and see if the results fall in line with other verified God facts. This is the whole point of understanding God. Again consider billions of people used methods of observation to determine it's a verified fact.

You cant study God.

Then you can't study science.

I wouldnt care even if it was reasonable, but it obviously isnt, because it was written 2000 years ago. Believe what you want, dont push it on me.

So does that mean 2000 years from now science is not reasonable?

I am not talking about a dogmatic, christian God. And if you are then you need to make that more clear and not generalize your statements.

I dont believe in God. Regardless of what I think, I could be wrong, I could be right. I could never know for sure, im not going to act like I do.

Regardless of what you think, you could be wrong about science and you could be right (the scientific community is constantly changing its views). You could never know for sure. Yet you are acting like you do.

Please review my previous post, when you can. Thanks


[edit on 013131p://27u59 by Lucid Lunacy]

Science is not God and God is not science. Science is science, which observes the natural world by coming up with new theories on how it works, and testing these theories. So no, 2000 years from now science wont be unreasonable, but its founded on reason. If you could provide me with some examples of experiments and theories people have tested on God I would be glad to hear them, since you keep on talking about them. There are plenty of "theories" on "God", but they are worthless because you cant test them. Im sure there is a pink elephant standing right behind you right now, but everytime you turn to look he hides!!! I swear!!!!!! Do you see where this is going? Much like God. I dont see what questions you want me to answer, all I see is dodges which avoid what im really talking about.

Yet it still took a creator to make them, right. You are just adding more fuel to the creator beliefs. (Note for me it's not a belief, it's knowledge.
When you can find me a mechanical watch in the middle of the Sahara desert, that evolved by itself, then I'll believe you.

How the hell does this watch meteophore strengthen your argument? It's not an animal.. life of it's own design grows and evolves.

I sense a feeling of human centralism going on. What is the matter, cannot accept the existence of a greater power than us? Sensitive ego?

The whole point of religion is that humans be something 'special' to something all powerful.. and then to in turn.. submit to it; that that is the reason for the whole universe to exist is specifically for us so we should pay it homage [well to the people who a 'clo$er' to it anyway].. the universe.. is our home.. it eventually gave us life but I don't think it was a concious decision because it was lonely.. it just did.. and it is much appreciated.

Exactly, you have free will to do anything you want, yet under the laws of karma. You choose what life you want, you choose your future lives, you choose your whole fate. If your choice is to suffer, then it's your choice. If you choose happiness, it's still your choice.

And I can do all those things without benefit of a deity.

You said it yourself, what a terrible place the world would be if there was no religion. In a godless society, where man has elevated himself to god himself,

Who said athiests elevate themselves to 'god'? We DON'T BELIEVE in god.. if we refer to ourselves with 'we are god' it just means we take resposibilty of our own existance and don't attribute it to an exterior force.. it's not some ego trip.

and sees him as nothing but a machine, that automatically assembled from some dust, and will malfunction, where there is no greater purpose to life, where pain is endless, that surely would be a terrible place.

Why? I'm an officially an athiest- but I am a very spiritual person.. being 'godless' doesn't take away any purpose from my life.. my spirituality just connects me to the world around me rather than wasting on something that is illogical. It just further highlights the wonders and mysteries here on this planet and in us.. the fact that they made themselves is more inspiring than the thought of any god.

Religion, thus provides that outlet for man, to attain a state of inner-happiness to have a feeling of purpose,

Like holy wars? More people have died for god's sake than anything else.. history shows that the concept of god is bad for us as a species.. and it's still hindering our development.

and have something to look forward to after death.

I'm not scared of death.. I'd rather make the most out of life than live in humilty appeasing a hypathectical deity so I can pretend I'm going to go to 'heaven'.

However, if the atheist was wrong, and lead a life of sin, thinking death is the end, but later finds himself robbed of paradise and thrust into hell, he has lost out terribly in the end. Whichever way you look at it; the believer wins.

I'm not going to believe in god just-in-case.. besides which I don't need anyone to point out what is and is not a sin.. I have my own natural, evolved conscience to guide me.. the believer however is quite capable of overruling his/her natural conscience in order to hurt others by using bible quotes [or koran etc] to justify it. "But the book says it's okay.."

So in a universe where everything is a belief anyway, there are no absolute truths, would it be logical to choose a belief system that makes you unhappy and dehumanizes you.

Athiesm.. and then sometimes agnotisticism and buddhism [as in search of wisdom] suit me and aren't inhibiting.. things like the bible were what dehumanised. The most positive thing I ever did was to undo the religious conditioning.. but it is not to 'spite' god that I don't believe in it.. after I looked at religions objectively I just realised it's all manufactured. I don't use god as some sort of scapegoat either because of some complex.. [though I do still see it as being distructive to our world] I just believe in me, the world that I'm in and others who share it.. thats enough for me and this philosophy has in no way left me feeling unfullfilled.. on the contrary; it has been very enlightening.

How the hell does this watch meteophore strengthen your argument? It's not an animal.. life of it's own design grows and evolves.

The theory of evolution states that matter somehow aggregates to form consciousness. Yet, if this was true, and consciousness is nothing more than blind chance, then lesser complex systems should have formed too. A mechanical watch is complex, but less complex than a human being. Why are there are no evolved mechanical watches lying alone? This is where this theory falls face-flat.

To date, there is absolutely no scientific understanding of consciousness, no physical processes known to man, can account for it. Which means as of yet mind exists independent of matter.

The whole point of religion is that humans be something 'special' to something all powerful.. and then to in turn.. submit to it; that that is the reason for the whole universe to exist is specifically for us so we should pay it homage [well to the people who a 'clo$er' to it anyway].. the universe.. is our home.. it eventually gave us life but I don't think it was a concious decision because it was lonely.. it just did.. and it is much appreciated.

What is "religion" and which "religion" are you talking about. Not every religious person is Christian, or Muslim or Jewish. I do not feel anymore special than an animal or plant-matter. They all are here to serve their own purpose. There is no seperation for me, everything is manifest within. And nor was there ever a creation, what you and others perceive to be creation, is just a projection of the universal consciousness.

And I can do all those things without benefit of a deity.

Who said God is there to benefit you? Why does it all revolve around you? God is there for us to choose, and if we don't want to, fair enough, just lead your life in a positive manner, and you will still reach God. God is the source of creation, no matter which route you take, you will reach him. Sooner or later.

Who said athiests elevate themselves to 'god'? We DON'T BELIEVE in god.. if we refer to ourselves with 'we are god' it just means we take resposibilty of our own existance and don't attribute it to an exterior force.. it's not some ego trip.

Atheists, in their mighty ignorance, deny god, to justify their actions in the world. If there is no god, then they can do anything they want, regardless of morals, ethics or being judged later. It provides a false sense of security to them.

Why? I'm an officially an athiest- but I am a very spiritual person.. being 'godless' doesn't take away any purpose from my life.. my spirituality just connects me to the world around me rather than wasting on something that is illogical. It just further highlights the wonders and mysteries here on this planet and in us.. the fact that they made themselves is more inspiring than the thought of any god.

Oh, I've heard that one before from many "spiritual people" Sprituality is knowing you are a soul, comprised of an eternal life force, that we lovingly call our father. Spirituality is about practicing love, compassion and leading a positive life style. It is about feeling kinship with others, and belonging to your universe. You are "very spiritual" yet you deny this life force? Riight.

Like holy wars? More people have died for god's sake than anything else.. history shows that the concept of god is bad for us as a species.. and it's still hindering our development.

History has show the concept of science is bad for us as a species, and it's still hindering our cultural and spiritual development. In a scientific society we are taught that we are biological machines, where survival is of the fittest, we must all compete with one another, to climb the evolutionary or social hierarchy, and morals and ethics are just relative.

In some religions, we are taught the value of love, peace and cohesion, we are taught to assume responsibility for ourselves, and we are told of how we have a belonging to this universe. Do you want me to tell you which is positive?

I'm not scared of death.. I'd rather make the most out of life than live in humilty appeasing a hypathectical deity so I can pretend I'm going to go to 'heaven'.

You do not need to be scared if you lead a positive life. If you didn't, eveything you did wrong, will be in front of you to review. You will be the one whose judging yourself.

I'm not going to believe in god just-in-case.. besides which I don't need anyone to point out what is and is not a sin.. I have my own natural, evolved conscience to guide me.. the believer however is quite capable of overruling his/her natural conscience in order to hurt others by using bible quotes [or koran etc] to justify it. "But the book says it's okay.."

There are many people who have their own definiton of sin in the world. Some definitions are better than others. There are universals however that we all have defined in our consciousness. Unfortunately, because mankind is so spiritually retarded, he needs it taught to him, what is "right" and "wrong" when in fact it is common sense. Right = Positive; Wrong = negative. Positive = Love, peace, compassion, happiness; Negative = Hate, Ignorance, Anger, Greed, Sadness.

If you lead a lifestyle of love, peace and compassion, you are leading a positive life style, which is creative. If your definition does not include love, peace and compassion; then it's a negative life style, which is destructive. It really is as simple as that. If your "evolved conscience" tells you different, then it should evolve some more.

Athiesm.. and then sometimes agnotisticism and buddhism [as in search of wisdom] suit me and aren't inhibiting.. things like the bible were what dehumanised. The most positive thing I ever did was to undo the religious conditioning.. but it is not to 'spite' god that I don't believe in it.. after I looked at religions objectively I just realised it's all manufactured. I don't use god as some sort of scapegoat either because of some complex.. [though I do still see it as being distructive to our world] I just believe in me, the world that I'm in and others who share it.. thats enough for me and this philosophy has in no way left me feeling unfullfilled.. on the contrary; it has been very enlightening.

Again, god is not the sole property of Christians. I have looked at enough religions, to extract the positive from them all, discard the rest, and then distill it and listen to my heart. You confuse religion with spirituality and god, and discard god along with religion. God is not some super deity, he is a life force that pervades the entire universe, and you cannot deny that you don't have life. It came from somewhere, and it if it has, then obviously the concept of life already existed before you did.


[edit on 27-10-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Thats funny, you come across as a disgruntled ex-atheist.

On the contrary, atheism helped me understand god much more. If I was not an atheist, I would not have ask the questions I needed to guide me to spirituality.

I havnet embraced any other deity-religions, because they are all man-made concepts, and they all place limits and constructs on how a person should and shouldnt act/think.

Everything is a man-made concept. Doesn't science and logic place limits on how you should think? As I said before, you exaggerate the shortcomings of one, and the benefits of another, to justify the current. They are very similar in fact.

It would seem irrational to chose something that makes you unhappy,but then again, I dont think its much of a choice.

Everything is a choice.

I think its fine that you believe in God and that you're happy with your life and it works for you, but I cant understand how you're trying to tell everyone else what should work for them and what shouldnt. You act as if you know God exists, and that the only way to be positive and contribute to society is if you believe in some sort of God.

Of course I know God exists, simply because I do. The only way to be positive and contribute to society, is to believe in YOURSELF. That is who God is. He's you. Again, choosing beliefs that dehumanize you, is not believing in yourself. Life always needs purpose, purpose if the force that pushes us forward, it's what empowers us. What purpose have you, if you are just a machine that will breakdown in a few nanoseconds in the universal time? Sure, we all fabricate one, I've heard everything from becoming famous to cleaning the bedroom, but do they really provide a sense of accomplishment, being and happiness? I only have to look at this world, and it's incessant mourning, to know it doesn't.
I recall the story of Alexandra the great, he had conquered all, he was rich and powerful and amassed much wealth. At the time he was dying, he asked himself, what exactly did I accomplish, I am going empty handed, like everyone else, what was my life about.
Purpose is what gives your life meaning, it what makes you live. Many, however, do not live, they exist.

If God is a part of the universe, imagined or real, then regardless of how you rationalize, the fact remains, god is a part of this universe. If embracing him, and that means embracing what he represents, his divinity, his peace and his love, then what do you lose - nothing. If you deny him, simply because you cannot comprehend him or understand his purpose, then should you not deny yourself. Do you understand your being and your purpose? You are a part of the universe, and your life, is a part of it. If the universe gave you life, then where did this life come from? Can you get something out of nothing? Yes you can, the quantum vaccum, but only because it already has everything. Life is beyond the physical universe of space-time. This life-force we call God.

Religion is for people who need an answer to what life is about. I don't feel that we are that important to have some all knowing,all seeing god that will reward you for eternity or punish you for eternity> What kind of loving god would send you to hell FOREVER when you die. "oH you didn't believe in me, sorry no second chance you go straight to hell, thanks for playing". And when you get to heaven arn't you going to look down at hell and see loved ones and millions of others and say," Jesus ,don't you think they have had enough". And jesus will say "oh screw em,you are in heaven arn't you"

The theory of evolution states that matter somehow aggregates to form consciousness. Yet, if this was true, and consciousness is nothing more than blind chance, then lesser complex systems should have formed too.

Like a microbe perhaps? You need to be a little clearer in what you mean.. would a single celled microbe have a conciousness? I doubt it.. it doesn't have a brain for thinking or self awareness it would evolve one as it evolves.

A mechanical watch is complex, but less complex than a human being. Why are there are no evolved mechanical watches lying alone? This is where this theory falls face-flat.

How does my theory fall flat on it's face? A watch isn't an organism.

To date, there is absolutely no scientific understanding of consciousness, no physical processes known to man, can account for it. Which means as of yet mind exists independent of matter.

There IS some understanding.. there are people who study the brain.

Who said God is there to benefit you?

Again.. I do not believe in god. and am not interested in gaining anything from it.

just lead your life in a positive manner, and you will still reach God.

So does everyone get a cupie doll for this? What is achieved by trying to reach god?

Atheists, in their mighty ignorance,

Sweeping generalisation.. shouldn't biggotry be against your philosophy?

deny god, to justify their actions in the world. If there is no god, then they can do anything they want, regardless of morals, ethics or being judged later.

As I've already said- I have a conscience.. and all actions have consequences. We are social animals.. we have the capability for empathy installed in our brains.. it's why we cringe if we see a stranger get hurt.. and I have enough faith in myself to know that my moral judgement isn't detromental.. besides which the ethics in doctrine have alot to be desired.. and you can teach ethics if need be without relgion.. and I haven't seen ANY world wars caused by people fighting for the atheism cause.

It provides a false sense of security to them.

Security against what?

It is about feeling kinship with others, and belonging to your universe. You are "very spiritual" yet you deny this life force? Riight.

I deny a superior conciousness. I accept that all things put out energy.. 'life force' [debatable thought that may be] may be an energy that grew with the onset of life.

History has show the concept of science is bad for us as a species, and it's still hindering our cultural and spiritual development. In a scientific society we are taught that we are biological machines, where survival is of the fittest, we must all compete with one another, to climb the evolutionary or social hierarchy, and morals and ethics are just relative.

You do own a computer RIIIGHT?! I think science is wonderful.. and it's always been the survival of the fittist.. and ethics have always been relative.

In some religions, we are taught the value of love, peace and cohesion, we are taught to assume responsibility for ourselves, and we are told of how we have a belonging to this universe. Do you want me to tell you which is positive?

I didn't need to be told that.. it's a philosophy I developed anyway- I'm not trying to serve a god.. I do it because I want to.

Unfortunately, because mankind is so spiritually retarded, he needs it taught to him, what is "right" and "wrong" when in fact it is common sense. Right = Positive; Wrong = negative. Positive = Love, peace, compassion, happiness; Negative = Hate, Ignorance, Anger, Greed, Sadness.

Funny that.. clergy men had the same idea when they slaughtered pagens and burned witches.. they were trying to show the naive little heathens how to live sinless lives.. of course they knew best because they were the ones speaking for god. Religion is a mediator between a believer and a god.. if we are all equal to god and share a strong connection we shouldn't need to be TOLD what it is saying.. we'd hear it anyway wouldn't we? Or are believers meant to get it all on heresay?

Again, god is not the sole property of Christians. I have looked at enough religions, to extract the positive from them all, discard the rest, and then distill it and listen to my heart.

Judo christian religions are relevant because they have the run of the world and are a threat.

and you cannot deny that you don't have life. It came from somewhere,

A chemical reaction in optimum conditions which caused the spontaneus appearence of a single celled organism.. wonderful and amazing as it is it didn't need god either.

Originally posted by CommonSense
EE, Thanks for the reply. If I could, I'd like to ask for clarification on a couple of points.

Originally posted by EmbryonicEssence
The God/s that we know and have come to believe in were probably an alien species.

why do you believe this? Please help me out, it's a very serious question.

Originally posted by EmbryonicEssence
Do I believe in a being that is more powerful than anything in the universe? Yes. Is his/her/it's name God? Who the hell knows? .....

Is your "almighty being" the creator of all things? Is he/she/it all powerful?

Originally posted by EmbryonicEssence
Does the "almighty being" influence us? I can't say for sure. It sure as hell doesn't seem like it.......

Are we looking for the "ab" to control us or to allow us to exist given the ability to reason that "ab" gave us?

BTW, I sure hope we're not God's reality show, I hate reality TV, at least of the Survivor genre!

[Edited on 5/15/2004 by CommonSense]