We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor! : Freedom is Not Free

AMEN (egyptian pharoa)
Brother (Screwed American such as myself)

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

I never mentioned any legislation. I am talking about a mindset, an approach to your fellow American.

In order to defend our freedoms we must pledge all to eachother.

Fair enough. I was getting the impression that your OP was an attempt to justify a recent proposed piece of legislation but clearly you are referring to a mind set and nothing else. Therefore would you agree in the necessity of banding together in order to prevent Americans from being forced to make such a pledge.

Yep.. thats the conditioning that has poisoned the minds of all of us.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

Yep.. thats the conditioning that has poisoned the minds of all of us

LOL. Not wanting people forced into making "pledges" is the conditioning that has poisoned the minds of us all???? Care to elaborate???

You speak of a "free society" yet it appears that you believe the ideals of a free society to be poisoning the minds of us all. In the "free society" you speak of you cannot force people to make pledges. The society you are a proponent of most certainly cannot be free.

Edit to add:

The conditioning that is poisoning the minds of some is the idea that we must pledge our lives and fortunes to Government and corporate entities. Again the quote you reference was a pledge to each other. Let me know when their is a reform that doesn't involve pledging one's "fortune" (or lack there of) to one of the most profitable corporate industries. Or is the idea of a free market also "conditioning".

[edit on 14-9-2009 by harvib]

I posted this in your other thread, which I'm guessing spawned this thread, so I'm going to post the response again:

Each state is basically designed to be it's own country. But, they are bound together by the federal government for protection, as well as to ease problems between the states and not to have wars between the states - as is popular in Europe with all their countries.

So the idea is that the states bind together to form 1 solid defense. If New York is attacked, then Georgia helps and so forth.

By forming the union as such, it was designed to give each state the power to be it's own individual country in terms of operation. But in terms of defense from other countries - united they are much stronger than each individual state. Thus why it use to be "These United States" rather than "The United States". It's also where State Pride came in back in the day.

As well, the Bill of Rights were listed not as a list of things the federal government couldn't do, but as jobs for the federal government to do. Meaning, while the states and individuals are given the majority of the power and to be able to do what they want - it is the job of the federal government to make sure the states never infringe on those basic rights. So take the civil rights movement in the 60's - That is how it is supposed to be done. The states were infringing on the rights of the people and it is the job of the federal government to step in. It is not a list of things they can not do, it's a list of things they are by law required to protect. This is designed as part of the checks and balances.

Because when 1 persons rights are being infringed upon - it's not just that person who's rights are being infringed upon. It's the rights of all humans that are being infringed upon. If it happens to that guy - it will happen to you as well. And you will find that out the moment you happen to change your mind, or find yourself in a situation similar to that person. That is what it is talking about.

It has absolutely nothing to do with turning over all resources to a central authority which is then able to distribute the resources back in the manner it pleases, which is what you are talking about in general. In fact, that is exactly the reason why they had the revolutionary war to begin with.

The revolutionary war was fought by only 4% of the population. Only 40-45% of the population actually supported the cause, 35-45% of the population was neutral, and 15-20% supported the british.

Originally posted by harvib

Edit to add:

The conditioning that is poisoning the minds of some is the idea that we must pledge our lives and fortunes to Government and corporate entities. Again the quote you reference was a pledge to each other. Let me know when their is a reform that doesn't involve pledging one's "fortune" (or lack there of) to one of the most profitable corporate industries. Or is the idea of a free market also "conditioning".

[edit on 14-9-2009 by harvib]

Exactly... a pledge to each other...

I don't think you can find anyone on the GOP side who would make that pledge to anyone on the DEM side (and maybe vice versa)... accept for Orin Hatch. He's a pretty stand up guy

Unless there is a pledge to each other.. then there is no moving forward.

We have to stop hating on each other and start working together, as a human family. Not as constituents.



[edit on 15-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by HunkaHunka

I don't think you can find anyone on the GOP side who would make that pledge to anyone on the DEM side (and maybe vice versa)... accept for Orin Hatch. He's a pretty stand up guy

Let's face it, by and large, the individuals that have made it into the house have already been bought and paid for. The amount of money it takes to run a successful campaign makes it so.

Unless there is a pledge to each other.. then there is no moving forward.

For the above listed reason you shouldn't hold your breath.

BTW why can't reforms come from the public sector. You could cut out the corruption, the partisanship, and the profits to Corporate Industries. Those that don't want to participate need not to.

I am going to go one step further. When we pledge to each other, I take it to mean, if my neighbor or fellow countrymen come under attack or have something happen to them that I can help with, I will, under MY OWN VOLITION, help in whatever ways I can. However what I WILL not do or approve of is a gov't entity, whether state or federal, mandating what I have to do, how much of my fortune I have to use, or WHOM I HAVE to help. That gov't is controlled by special interests at ALL levels completely makes it impossible that the people that need help will get it if left to the gov't making decisions on whom to help. I understand what you are saying hunka and I do agree with you to that point. If we could removed the iron grip of corruption and special interests from the gov't, your argument might fall on softer ears. However in times especially like these where the rmpant corruption is now blatanly being done, the message gets no quarter.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

We have to stop hating on each other and start working together, as a human family. Not as constituents.



[edit on 15-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

I also take offense to the idea of "The Human Family" I do not think Jefferson and Franklin and Washington Pledged their lives to "The Human Family".

In my opinion it does not "take a village to raise a child" and all of humanity is not my family.

I to would pledge to help my neighbor. In fact I do on a regular basis. And if any force came rolling down our dirt roads on mass I would join them in defense of our homes. But standing with my fellow countrymen is a far cry different than standing with "The Human Family" in defense of the UN idea of liberty against any and all that would not take mandatory vaccinations and public school indoctrination.

It does not take a genius to see the US government is FUBAR. But it does take an honest man to admit it.

Freedom is indeed not free, and I agree in the sense that many Americans seem to have forgotten that. HOW we end up paying for that freedom, only time will tell.

If I had my way, Federal Gov't would be small, and State Gov't would be calling the shots within their respective borders. We would have to give up some of the entitlements that some of us have grown accustomed to, such as welfare(a BIG one in my book). I know that sounds heartless, but we need to streamline things. Let the State's deal with their own individual problems on their own terms, and cut out all of the super-huge bills that end up costing us billions.
Cut a large chunk out of military spending, cut the IRS, cut Homeland Security.
BAM I just saved us literally 10's of billions of dollars. Take some of that, pump it into things like infrastructure, business investment, EDUCATION(big one), work programs(NOT just service-based, get manufacturing up and running again), and national parks(avid nature-lover and outdoorsman). Take whatever is left over and throw it at the massive national debt.

We need less laws that inhibit the people of this country, and tighter laws on imported goods and illegal immigration.

Just my take on the whole situation.
Healthcare is like #10 on my list personally. We need to get this country GOING again first!

First the Articles of Confederation were discarded upon conclusion of the Revolutionary War friend Hunka.

They were replaced by the Constitution in large part because the Articles of Confederation not only failed to consider that the founding fathers did not own the land they were fighting for or have legal title to it, but that quite a bit of money had been lent to those that did.

In many ways it was kind of like the first Mortgage Crisis. As lofty and as wonderful as the Articles of Confederation appeared on the surface the whole undertaking relied on establishing a nation on theft, by taking defacto control of the land from it's rightful owners and then not paying them hoping that declaring the land theirs by force of arms and declaring their own sovereignty would do the trick.

The reality is when they got to Paris to conclude the peace and realized all the Creditors, and Lenders and Title Owners were simply waiting there for them to show up to present the bill that they realized two things, you can't just steal the land from people who have lawful title, and absolve yourself of it's debts, and 2, that the Colonies new principals George Washington, John Adams, Ben Franklin et. al, and associates did not have anywhere near the wealth personally and neither did the colonialists to pay off these debts and purchase the titles.

The Articles of Confederation were highly insulting to the Monarchy and it's Lenders and Creditors and if you read the Treaty of Paris which is the actual Document that establishes the United States legally and only as a said Corporate Entity for the purpose of paying back the debts and changing management you will see in fact that the very Crown they swore no allegiance to not only dictated the terms of the peace, appointed itself treasurer for the new endeavor but also instructed the said plenipotentiaries of the United States to write a new Constitution that would protect the various European money interests in the change in management.

The Constitution was written for England, Spain, France, and the Netherlands and their attached creditors and bankers not for the people.

The Articles of Confederation were actually written for the people, and they ceasesd functioning for the people as soon as the founders realized that monetarily the war was unwinnable.

In addition when they said we pledge our fortunes to each other, it meant not their monetary wealth, but their reputations and posterity meaning we all succeed together in establishing our fortune and fame, or we all go down in infamy and villiany for failing too.

People have a hard time understanding which documents carry the most significance and so you better understand had George Washington and Company not come to a suitable accomodation with the actual Land Owners and Creditors at the end of the war, no one internationally would have done business with the United States.

Reading the Treaty of Paris and Treaty of Ghent in their entirity will give you a much clearer definition and understanding as to what actually took place and the real relationships that were forged and weighed in on how we would be goverened moving forward.



[edit on 17/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]