We mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor! : Freedom is Not Free

Wow.. strong words aren't they? Let's take a look at from whence they came...


The last paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

Note how in order for there to be any freedom, those who make up the free society must first pledge their Lives, their Fortunes, and their sacred honor.

Sounds a lot different than "Get your hand outta my pocket!" Doesn't it?

Sounds a lot different than "I don't want to have to take care of you with my money that I worked for!"

Indeed, it makes those types of sayings sound incredibly childish at best, and at worse, unpatriotic.

In order to have a free society, the society must first pledge to each other member, all that he or she has in order to move forward.

There are those amongst us today who would fight to their death to prove that freedom is about live and let die... sadly, they have not read their history, nor do they realize the true cost of freedom...

What is that cost? To pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Freedom is not free!

So what are you alluding to exactly? That the government has the right as a revolutionary movement of the people to take what it wants for it's own ends? Seems to me that's precisely what they were fighting against. Among many atrocities and injustices.

Originally posted by projectvxn
So what are you alluding to exactly? That the government has the right as a revolutionary movement of the people to take what it wants for it's own ends? Seems to me that's precisely what they were fighting against. Among many atrocities and injustices.

Not at all...

What I am alluding to, is that the only way we can have freedom is if WE the PEOPLE first pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor to eachother.

How we do that is up to each generation. Some might feel the gov should provide a mechanism for this, others might feel that's the worst thing to happen.

All I'm saying is that the attitude of "This is mine because I worked for it, screw you!" is not in line with the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. Because ultimately none of us has ANYTHING without first pledging our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor to eachother.

What we should be doing is determining the best way we can all do this for eachother and for our society.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
WE the PEOPLE first pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor to eachother.

I feel that has been taken out of context. They were referring to the fact that those 13 colonies needed to bind themselves to each other or else...

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately
Ben Franklin

reply to post by HunkaHunka


But the whole point of the fight to begin with was about being able to keep what one makes, and to cement ones own destiny. It is about individual rights.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
WE the PEOPLE first pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor to eachother.

I feel that has been taken out of context. They were referring to the fact that those 13 colonies needed to bind themselves to each other or else...

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately
Ben Franklin

Actually the We in the paragraph is referring to the Representatives.. not the states themselves. They knew they were putting their necks on the line with these seditious statements.

But it is true, that unless we are all willing to pledge to eachother all that we have toward the spirit of independence, than surely none of us shall have any.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

But the whole point of the fight to begin with was about being able to keep what one makes, and to cement ones own destiny. It is about individual rights.

No actually it wasn't. It was about the fact that the colonists were not allowed the same rights attributed to British Citizens. The first bill of rights was written in 1689 by the Brits right after they had their own Revolution.

Yet, King George felt he could rule over the colonies differently because they weren't actually in Britain. So the colonists decided to re-assert these rights and re claim their own independence that they felt due them as British Citizens.

This was in fact the SECOND revolution of the British peoples. Modeled after the first, to attain the same rights as the British Citizens in the England. And the only way they could do that was to declare their independence from the Monarch, just as the British Citizens had done during the Glorious Revolution. The colonists made the claim that these rights were inalienable, meaning that even though they happened to be on another continent, the same rights applied.

it was not about the individual... That did become part of the American spirit... no doubt. But that's not what this was about to begin with. It was simply taking back the rights that all English had at that time, except them.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Freedom Is not free... Oh how I have heard this before and how I do not like this piece of NWO propaganda.

If freedom is not free how much does it cost? What did you have to pay for it?
IS the freedom you enjoy different from the freedom Canada enjoys?

You see I realized a long time ago that freedom is liberty and we all have it or we don't. That freedom is a personal realization. You can not fight for it and earn a piece of paper that grants you your freedom. You can not work hard and earn freedom from a master.

You can only realize that it already exists and what you choose to do with it is your choice. No man can take your freedom if you realize that you were born free the day your soul descended from on high. Laws maybe enacted that attempt to hinder our pursuit of happiness but no law can stop us from taking any action... and all actions have consequences but you still enjoy the freedom to commit to any action regardless of what ever the consequences maybe. A free man always was and will always be free.

He wont have to work for it or fight for it or work for it. He just accepts that he is free.

The only person in charge of you is YOU.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

But the whole point of the fight to begin with was about being able to keep what one makes, and to cement ones own destiny. It is about individual rights.

Maybe the wisdom of the founding fathers was to recognize the right/left duality of man
that, such and endeavor would only succeed if the two balanced eachother, hence freedom of press. Some seem to assert that the founding fathers believed a strong nation
hinged on the strict pursuit of self interests, when it seems clear that these men believed
in brotherhood and fraternity also. That the two help cement the balance of mankinds natural inclinations. That a this nation cannot operate solely on an individual level or
a communal level.



[edit on 14-9-2009 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by titorite
Freedom Is not free... Oh how I have heard this before and how I do not like this piece of NWO propaganda.

If freedom is not free how much does it cost?

It costs you a pledge of your life, your fortune and your sacred honor to those who share the same dream with you, lest someone else take it away.

Just like it says in the Declaration of Independence. Is that now a piece of NWO propaganda?

[edit on 14-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by HunkaHunka


How can freedom be taken from a free man?

I can do anything. Of course their will be consequences of my actions or any actions but really who can take my freedom?

You can take my life , my property but you can not take my ability to do as I please.

I can violate all the T&C of ATS if I like. Nothing stops me from doing that but me. I am in control of myself and I realize that. Now their would be consequences of course but the rules do not dictate my actions. Only I dictate my actions.

That is the true lesson of freedom.

Once you realize you have it.. You have it.

It can not be stolen,bought, sold ,or traded.

You need not make any pledges or put up any collateral to attain freedom.

It is already their and you need only realize this.

It is one of the very few things in life that is unequivocally yours. From Birth to death you a free.

It is only an illusion to feel otherwise.

It sounds more like communism to me.

If OP's quote/question is what it takes to be free, why isn't it the foundation of our morals.

I think it is because the document may have been written under a false guise of cultural salvation to what became "send us your poor, your hungry" ect. Beautiful in pen, never meant literally.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by sticky]

Originally posted by sticky
It sounds more like communism to me.

If OP's quote/question is what it takes to be free, why isn't it the foundation of our morals.

It is... it's called the Golden Rule.

More specifically, in the Christian faith we are exhorted to be our brothers keeper.

It may however vary greatly depending upon your own moral tradition.

I think it is because the document may have been written under a false guise of cultural salvation to what became "send us your poor, your hungry" ect. Beautiful in pen, never meant literally.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by sticky]

It was more a long the lines that they knew if they didn't stand together, all for one and one for all, than they would surely all perish.

Nothing has changed today. For any specific way of life, all must pledge themselves to their own society, to protect it from it's enemies. A way of life doesn't just continue without defense, and to pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our Sacred Honor... well that's pretty much what it takes to maintain a free society.

Anything else is simply opportunism which will doesn't last for long.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by titorite


Titorite, Then why didn't the founders just claim they were free and go on about their business?

Because they knew that in order to live the life they knew they could that they had to get buy in from eachother to continue to do so.

It's not about freedom in general.. it's about the longevity of particular freedoms.

In a society undefined by these morals toward each member, the freedoms you have without consequence dissipate real fast. Sure you are free in mind, and free in body to do what you will, but without a fraternity, there is no one to protect your continued freedoms. You can be an extreme individualist if you want. But you will watch your society decay in one generation.

However, if you wish to maintain your society, then you will need others of like mind, and a mutual pledge of your lives, your fortunes and your sacred honor.

Not to wax too philosophical, but that's what was going on at the battle of Thermopylae in Ancient Greece.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

Note how in order for there to be any freedom, those who make up the free society must first pledge their Lives, their Fortunes, and their sacred honor.

I think you missed a part of the quote:

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,

Clearly they were making the pledge based on defending their assertion of independence. Furthermore they were making the pledge to each other not to a corporate or a Government entity as certain legislation may require.

reply to post by harvib


I never mentioned any legislation. I am talking about a mindset, an approach to your fellow American.

In order to defend our freedoms we must pledge all to eachother.

It definitely is not the foundation of our morals. Maybe our idealist myths.

If it was. Anyone could walk up to anyone anywhere any night at any time and say "I have nothing, I need food and a place to stay" If the person can provide, it is thier patriotic duty to do so.

I'd say the reality of the country is nearing 1% or less of a chance for such events to occur.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


The founders did exactly that. They claimed their freedom. Said the king of england had no hold over them or the colonies. Went to France to get the Nod from them that US colonies were a new nation free of the governmental ties that had previously bound them to england.

This does not change the fact that all the farmers and cobblers back in the US were still cobbling and farming. Heck some lived their whole lives not even knowing a revolution had taken place.

One does not need to pledge life and property to everyone else to maintain a free society. What you aspire too is communism. Pure simple and true.

The founders pledged the fortune, life, and honor in pursuit of a free nation.

They were FREE TO DO THAT. The hold the crown had on the colonies and the people there of did not have a hold over the choices the founders made because THEY WERE FREE MEN!

You don't get it. You ascribe to this romantic idealism of the founders. You do not seem to consider the reality of the day. The hard life they lived ,the poverty, the shorter life spans or the wide open spaces back then. Open Land provides more freedom then you can probably conceive. And the freedom to be left alone is important.

Thats what they rebelled over. The king would not leave them alone. Kept on taking their earnings from their labor, inisting on the common folk to support their military and by support I mean feed them mend their cloths house them and no complaining when a red coat takes your daughters virtue.

THAT violation of anothers freedom prompted them to rebel. They were able to rebel because they were freethinking men.

No thought police, no brainwashed propaganda to confuse them into inaction...

Let me ask you this HunkaHunka, What have you done to help others with their freedom?

Fancy words are great and all but what actions have you taken to help others realize they are free to do as they want to be?

You see, a seperation of people and government has occured. The ideas are awesome, beautiful and inspiring but they hardly were executed to even the smallest of US populations if any at all. The region at the time, totally controlled by religion, and a low average education for generations very early.

No longer can we trust the integrity of hard working assertive men. The reason is, the hard working assertive man that is granted powers and wealth begins to actually believes through his hard work and assertiveness he should have more power and wealth then the next person. This totally disassociates working man from non assertive/working man, thus leads to working man now looking down on non assertive man, viewing it as weakness or inept ability. Now totally disassociated from non assertive man, assertive man begins to realize how to financially exploit non asertive man. Here we are, 2009.

[edit on 14-9-2009 by sticky]

reply to post by HunkaHunka

I never mentioned any legislation. I am talking about a mindset, an approach to your fellow American.

In order to defend our freedoms we must pledge all to eachother.

Fair enough. I was getting the impression that your OP was an attempt to justify a recent proposed piece of legislation but clearly you are referring to a mind set and nothing else. Therefore would you agree in the necessity of banding together in order to prevent Americans from being forced to make such a pledge.