Charles Darwin film 'too controversial for religious America'

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

Originally posted by John Matrix
If we are going to talk evolution, let's talk about the evolution of the Universe, planets, and life, beginning with the Universe.

Let's take the axe to the root of your theory for beginnings.

What created god(s)? Let me guess: since he's outside of space and time, the normal laws of physics don't apply to him and he or it never had a beginning. In other words, you have absolutely no proof whatsoever.

What do astrophysics and cosmology have to do with evolution?

I'm not an evolutionists, and since I don't believe in evolution, and I believe the Universe was caused by God, I would say they don't have anything to do with evolution. Yet, some scientists still say the universe evolved, as did our planets, and some say the universe is still evolving.

Isn't it to do with "evolution" when scientist say something is evolving?

You are right, God exists outside of the realm of space, matter, and time. He is infinite, we are finite. Good perception on your part.

You get two thumbs up.

Originally posted by John Matrix

You are right, God exists outside of the realm of space, matter, and time. He is infinite, we are finite. Good perception on your part.

You get two thumbs up.

Just one problem... you have no proof or empirical evidence of any of this.

reply to post by John Matrix


Not to rain on your little bubble of belief....but.....

Can't you see the idiocy of this:

You are right, God exists outside of the realm of space, matter, and time. He is infinite, we are finite.

YOU want this 'god' to be all about YOU...and christ, and jesus, and all that...(you seem to be a christian, so shoot me for assuming...)

YET....you acknowledge a belief in the 'infinite'..and you dare to apply it to US?? As in, the Human Race???

Can you not see how incredibly short-sighted that is???

I mean...come on!

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Thank Jaxon!! That was a cool video. Oh!! I was a sci fi Trekky type

when I was a teenager back in the 60's....still am......a Trekky that is!!

Those were the days!! I had a crush on Lieutenant Uhura. But that's

another story.

So that's how the Universe all came to be, eh Jaxon.

Still doesn't answer what the Ultimate cause was though.

But, If evolution didn't start with the universe, then it did not start at all,

nor could it. However, if it came from another dimension, outside our

realm of space, matter, and time, it would not have needed to start with

the universe. There's a theory!! Why, it could just poke it's nose in and

start anytime.....like "Q" .

[edit on 23/9/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by DisappearCompletely

Originally posted by John Matrix

You are right, God exists outside of the realm of space, matter, and time. He is infinite, we are finite. Good perception on your part.

You get two thumbs up.

Just one problem... you have no proof or empirical evidence of any of this.

Same goes for the evolutionists theory. How do you prove or disprove something that is proposed to have taken place millions of years ago?

The law of cause and effect tells me there has to be an ultimate first cause for the universe. I look up and see design in the constellations, orbital paths of planets, spiral galaxies, comets, etc. The ultimate first cause(God) demonstrates His ID in everything, right down to the three-billion-letter program in DNA.

It's proof enough for me.

reply to post by John Matrix


Snarky much?

It's called Theoretical Physics, you know, that really really really really complex math stuff you like to use when it's convienent. Not 'Trek' like, but based in reality.

And once again, for the record, I have never stated that there was not a Creator, just that the complexity of how said Creator creates is far far far more complex than your myth gives the Creator. Also, the Creator is far far far more complex than your 'faith' gives the Creator. Your side seems to espouse the belief that the Creator only created this Universe through a Cosmic Majic Trick just for us mere mortal humans, while I believe that this Universe is only one of many Universes created by said Creator, and not just for us, but for the Creator Itself.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Hamlet by William Shakespeare: Act 1. Scene V

The fact is that nothing you or anyone else in this thread trying to debunk Evolution have said is new or hasn't been debunked a thousand times before here on ATS. Just the same rehashed 'arguments'. So, until you all come up with something new...

And my challenge still stands. Care to go one on one, mano y mano? I mean, if you're so right and I'm so wrong, it should be easy!

What's the matter, Colonel Sanders? Chicken???

Dark Helmet: from the movie Spaceballs

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
And once again, for the record, I have never stated that there was not a Creator, just that the complexity of how said Creator creates is far far far more complex than your myth gives the Creator.

Scripture tells me His ways are far above our ways, so your statement is moot.

Also, the Creator is far far far more complex than your 'faith' gives the Creator.

Scripture says my creator gives me faith....faith is a gift. Your statement is moot again.

Your side seems to espouse the belief that the Creator only created this Universe through a Cosmic Majic Trick just for us mere mortal humans, while I believe that this Universe is only one of many Universes created by said Creator, and not just for us, but for the Creator Itself.

You are stereotyping creationists. Nothing is impossible for God, so he can have all the Universes he likes, it does not effect my belief that he created the Universe I live in.

The fact is that nothing you or anyone else in this thread trying to debunk Evolution have said is new or hasn't been debunked a thousand times before here on ATS. Just the same rehashed 'arguments'. So, until you all come up with something new...

And my challenge still stands. Care to go one on one, mano y mano? I mean, if you're so right and I'm so wrong, it should be easy!

I'll have to take a rain check, i'm looking for something new.

reply to post by John Matrix

Scripture tells me....

Scripture says ...

AH! Have identified the problem.

A simple case, seen regularly....a lack of cognitive reasoning skills. Sometimes has been shown to be endemic, with fatal results.

Usually factored out within a generation or two....no need to be alarmed, evolution will take care of the anomaly, as it is not a vital constituent in the overall survival of the species.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
AH! Have identified the problem.

A simple case, seen regularly....a lack of cognitive reasoning skills. Sometimes has been shown to be endemic, with fatal results.

Usually factored out within a generation or two....no need to be alarmed, evolution will take care of the anomaly, as it is not a vital constituent in the overall survival of the species.

Thanks you. I will try to rectify that problem area you so astutely identified. How much do I need to evolve to be as humble, patient, empathic, kind, and wise as you are?

Originally posted by John Matrix
I'll have to take a rain check, i'm looking for something new.

You could always try having an open mind... That would be both new and refreshing...

And it's OK, I completely understand that it's just too scary for you...

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by John Matrix
I'll have to take a rain check, i'm looking for something new.

You could always try having an open mind... That would be both new and refreshing...

And it's OK, I completely understand that it's just too scary for you...

You mean open like a garbage can?

So it can be filled with evolution theories and junk science?

No thanks.

reply to post by John Matrix


What's it like being ignorant of something you've had 150 years to learn?

I thought we were suppose to "deny ignorance," here.

Is the earth flat, too?

reply to post by John Matrix

You mean open like a garbage can?

So it can be filled with evolution theories and junk science?

No thanks.

The point of having an open mind is to be considerate of new and different ideas.

The point of being critical is work back the ideas till just the best are left.


We don't take kindly to indoctrination here. It took 19 years for me to break through my religious indoctrination.




"Junk science"
That's rich coming from a "creation science" advocate, probably the poorest named delusion in the world.



[edit on 24-9-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by John Matrix

Do cows fly? Maybe in a few million years according to evolution theory.

Maybe. A few million years ago they started to swim... again. Go figure.

Originally posted by Welfhard
We don't take kindly to indoctrination here. It took 19 years for me to break through my religious indoctrination.

Can you define "we" you just mentioned.

I sense a veiled threat between the lines.

If I missed something in the ATS rules I would like to know about it.

reply to post by Connector


I do believe in god and thus that god created the universe though but do not describe myself as Christian or a Creationist. Where does that leave me? There is no proof that can be found for it and I believe that god used whatever means to create the universe as he saw fit. That could include the "Big Bang" or Evolution. It doesn't make me insane to think that there is purpose in life other then being born and dying and then we are no more period.

I don't have the answers and don't even know exactly what I believe in. I do have a hard time "Not" believing in evolution. It's right there in front of us it seems to me.

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by John Matrix
I'll have to take a rain check, i'm looking for something new.

You could always try having an open mind... That would be both new and refreshing...

And it's OK, I completely understand that it's just too scary for you...

You mean open like a garbage can?

So it can be filled with evolution theories and junk science?

No thanks.

Why what else are you filling it with? Images of a bearded man in the clouds who listens to everyones prayers and then ignores them?

Originally posted by John Matrix
Let's go right back to the beginning of the Universe and look at the Law of Cause and Effect:

The first cause argument (or “cosmological argument”) takes the existence of the universe to entail the existence of a being that created it. It does so based on the fact that the universe had a beginning. There must, the first cause argument says, be something that caused that beginning, a first cause of the universe.

Lol ... worst case ever.

What created God then? If God created the universe then something created God ... what?

Originally posted by george_gaz

Originally posted by John Matrix
Let's go right back to the beginning of the Universe and look at the Law of Cause and Effect:

The first cause argument (or “cosmological argument”) takes the existence of the universe to entail the existence of a being that created it. It does so based on the fact that the universe had a beginning. There must, the first cause argument says, be something that caused that beginning, a first cause of the universe.

Lol ... worst case ever.

What created God then? If God created the universe then something created God ... what?

Life couldn't have spontaneously popped into existence, something had to have created it.
The Earth couldn't have spontaneously popped into existence, something had to have created it.
The Universe couldn't have spontaneously popped into existence, something had to have created it.

Given those obvious facts, who could have created them but the Creator?

The Creator doesn't have physical properties like life, the Earth and the universe that scientists can argue with religious scholars about. God is beyond their understanding.

And God, unlike everything else, didn't have to have a creator, as God is eternal. Isn't this all so extremely obvious?

Well if you had all this drilled into your head as a young child for years and years like I and so many others did, how can we be expected to believe anything else but what we were indoctrinated to believe? Don't ask too many questions, like "why does the universe have to have a creator but God doesn't have to have a creator? Why can God be eternal, but the universe can't be eternal?"

You know a few hundred years ago we had ways of dealing with people who asked too many annoying questions like that, we called them blasphemers and witches and burned them at the stake. But since we can't burn those annoying people on Earth anymore, all we can do is tell them they will burn in Hell for eternity for asking such questions. Scared yet?

And since this thread is about Darwin, note that HE initially believed in God:

www.age-of-the-sage.org...

"I liked the thought of becoming a country clergyman. Accordingly I read with great care Pearson on the Creeds and a few other books on divinity; and as I did not then in the least doubt the strict and literal truth of every word in the Bible, I soon persuaded myself that our Creed must be fully accepted...."-Charles Darwin

Darwin duly proceeded to Christ's College Cambridge where he was to take a degree preparatory to Ordination as a minister of religion. He did indeed qualify with a degree but he was never Ordained.

So all the people who believe in evolution should see that the guy credited with the "theory of evolution" studied to become a minister. So if Darwin believed in God at one time, why shouldn't all the people who believe his theory of evolution also believe in God?

Well, Darwin, like some of us, questioned his indoctrination, and asked some of the same questions you just asked. The conclusion he came to?

I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic.

You know, it's possible that we could learn about more than just the theory of evolution from Darwin. Admitting that we don't know all the answers is to me a sign of an open mind. And with an open mind, we can begin to seek the real truth.

[edit on 24-9-2009 by Arbitrageur]