New Threat: Hizbullah Chemical War on Israel

reply to post by mattpryor


Back to Matt the Mind Reader and Prophet I see.

First off Matt Lebanon is a badly fractured society with several parties struggling for domestic prominence and dominance, Sunni, Shiite, Hizbullah, Druze, Christians, Palestinaians, Iranians, Syrians, and Israelis all play a prominent role in it's politics and trying to control it.

The last Israeli invasion should have taught both sides two things. One is that Israel can smash the entire nation's power grid, communication and transportation and water distribution network within hours if not days which has a political backlash domestically inside Lebanon for the political party that invites it and that is an obsticle to domestic power not a path to it. Israel on the other hand should have learned that it's no cake walk attacking Lebanon without Christian militia allies inside of it willing to help like in the 1980's and it's a pretty costly and embarassing endeavor for as well equipped and trained military as Israel's to not be able to reach it's objectives on the ground, with ground troops on it's own and easily.

The fact that cross border attacks have long since ceased with Katuysha rockets is proof in the pudding that Hizbollah has learned a hard lesson and learning harder lessons at the polls.

The reality is that Hizbollah does not serve its self well by using chemical weapons since they would also harm their own lebanese populations and it's not a substitute for the airpower and massive ground troops they would need to succesfully invade and hold Israel.

There is a reason Syria, Suadi Arabia and other nations have not attempted to attack Israel since 1972 Matt wich is 37 years ago now, and that's it's been made painfully obvious that Western Nations like the United States are going to arm it to the teeth and provide it the intelligence and logistical support it needs in an all out struggle. They can't win Matt and they know it.

The limited little rocket attacks are about politics and trying to get Israel to the peace table to make real concessions Israel doesn't want to make.

None of your assertions are credible Matt, they ignore the reality on the ground to simply make a propoganda case for money and violence without end.

All your arguments are based on paranoias, fears, prejudices and a simple desire to minimize and triavlize everyone's right to a peaceful life and existence including Israelis.

I know times are tough Matt but what ever they pay you, trust me it's not enough.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


So to cut through the usual 8 paragraphs hyperbole (in which you yet again accuse me of working for the Israelis, which is getting a bit tired), what you're essentially saying is that option 1 is the outcome you consider most likely?

Once Israelis signal their willingness for peace, all past disagreements will be forgotten and everyone can just get on and be good neighbours?

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

So to cut through the usual 8 paragraphs hyperbole (in which you yet again accuse me of working for the Israelis, which is getting a bit tired), what you're essentially saying is that option 1 is the outcome you consider most likely?

Once Israelis signal their willingness for peace, all past disagreements will be forgotten and everyone can just get on and be good neighbours?

Everyone will be good neighbors once everyone involved starts working on being good neighbors.

Matt this thing with Iran is about getting Pavlavi back on the Throne over there, plain and simple. I can appreciate Israel owes the Shah's family since he was a very good ally to Israel and the United States when it came to working around mitigating the effect of Arab oil embargos on both our countries.

This thing with Hizbollah is just the addressing of the posibility that because Hizbollah is an Iranian sponsored political and religious party that if Israel attacks Iran in conjunction with the United States Hizbollah will counter attack from Lebanon.

I don't believe they would Matt simply because it's political suicide for them to invite an other war with Israel. They have lost grounds in the polls and in the legislature allready and they would stand to loose far more if Lebanon has it's infrastructure smashed yet again because of provocative acts on the part of Hizbollah.

Iran might pay for them, but they are still a homegrown Lebanese orginization that requires the good will of the Lebanese people to survive with or without Iran's money and or money and weapons.

I think it's a huge strategic blunder to go after Lebanon yet again simply as 'insurance' that all will go smoothly when attacking Iran.

Two front wars are inherently dangerous and if Iran can actually open up any kind of front via the air or sea, while Hizbollah can open up any kind of front on the Lebanese border, then all bets are off that Syria won't sieze the opportunity to go after the Golan.

I can't believe anyone owes the Pavlavi family that much that anyone in their right mind would risk that kind of nonsense.

It's highly exagerated in the Western Press by Iran is another country that does have some domestic political considerations to consider and it's not going to attack Israel no matter what kind of weapons they have.

Ultimately Israel has been given a huge gift of very relative security all things considered because of how we in America effect the equation over there.

Shame on it, if it hasn' tbeen using it to make real peace and look for real peace.

Creating another generation of angry orphans isn't the brightest move in the world Matt Pryor.

Most especially when one considers no one is in fact attacking Israel.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I suspect you're right in that Iran probably wouldn't dream of attacking Israel at the moment. Israel is too strong and has some powerful friends. And in my view the best thing Israel can do is wait and see what happens and prepare contingencies for worst-case scenarios. Which seems to be what they're doing.

In spite of the victory parades and usual bullsh*t rhetoric, Hezbollah were badly hurt in 2006, same as Hamas were badly hurt earlier this year. They will be very, very wary of attacking Israel again because it hurts them a lot more than it hurts Israel - worse than that, all these failed attacks make their leaders appear weak.

The Middle East is all about survival - it's not enough to be righteous and peaceful. You have to be strong as well. What Israel has now is peace through superior firearms (and training and tactics), and the alternative to that would have been defeat and annihilation. It's not pretty, but that is the law of nature.

Once you have survival, then you can negotiate true peace, prosperity and trade. As Israel has done with Egypt and Jordan, and will eventually do with Lebanon, Syria and Iran given a few decades. But first you have to deter them from attacking you, which you cannot do by pleading if you want to last long.

reply to post by mattpryor


See Matt the reality is that when the United States or the Russians, or English or Israelis attack a nation what cripples a nation is crippling it's infrastructure, and destroying the things that make modern urban life possible.

Take out the power plants and you have no refigeration or air-conditioning to live an enjoyable life in the sweltering heat, no water pumps to take your shower or draw your water. Take out the TV Stations and Radio Stations and you have no means to broadcast news and worse yet, your frightened and unsure populace has no way to get news. Take out the cell phone and communications networks, now you can't even find out what's going on up the road at a neighbors house or make arrangements to coordinate your own escape let alone a counter attack. Knock out the transporation hubs by destroying airport runways, key bridges and intersections and port and dock facilities and now your civilian refugee popultion has no way to go anywhere, even if their were adequate petrol or fuel to get them there which you destroy too and what you can't destroy can't get pumped by electricity since it's been nocked out.

In no time you are going to have a lot of hungry, hot and thirsty, confused and desperate people who are just going to want hostilities end and for life to start getting back to normal.

Chemical weapons and agents of terror don't smash infrastructure, they don't bring populations to their knees, they don't effect the day to day life of the nation's populace being attacked except in that limited expanse of territory where the chemicals are used Matt. Depending on wind conditions and rain not only can they dissapate quickly they can end up coming right back on the combatants that deployed them in the first place.

No nation in the region has the real means to smash Israeli infrastructure and every nation in the region knows that Israel does have the means to smash it's infrastructure.

That is why no credible full scale attacks have been made on Israel in 37 years, it is utterly futile and pointless.

Your neighbors are far more scared of Israel than Israel has any reason to fear them.

Poltical orginizations like Hamas and Hizbollah and like it or not they are political orginizations because that is what gets people to join them and support them is politics likewise know they can not militarily effect the outcome on the ground. There attacks are basically limited and innefectual with the aim of grabbing headlines and a political spotlight in hopes that by keeping their plight in the International Media it will put pressure on Israel to negotiate with them.

Israel is no different in how it seeks the International Press to try to garner support to put pressure on other nations like Iran.

Israel is not in any real or significant danger from any party currently except of course their own deadliest enemy which is themselves.

We are all our own deadliest enemy Matt Pryor when we fail to take in to account the true facts that govern our lives.



[edit on 9/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Why don't we just cut the personal attacks and debate the issue that I raised?

Imagine for a moment (I know this will be difficult for you to do) that you are Prime Minister of Israel.

You are directly responsible for the safety and well-being of approximately 12,000,000 people.

At your northern border there is a group of armed and fanatical militia, loyal to Islam and fiercely opposed to your country's existence. Your intelligence tells you that they are stockpiling weapons, many thousands of Katyusha rockets, which have in the past 3 years been used to target your civilian populations. Now there are also reports from Kuwait (of all places) of warheads containing chemicals, which may or may not be true.

Of course this intelligence may be wrong. Hezbollah may just be misunderstood. They may not hate Jews and Israel after all, they may just be honest and devout farmers who collect rockets as a hobby and have no ill intentions whatsoever.

So, Prime Minister, these are the options - what are you going to do?

1) Pre-emptive attack
2) Do nothing and trust UNIFIL with the protection of your citizens
3) Wait for them to attack first and respond

Which one?

Kids this is a PERFECT example of a personal opinion presented as fact this is called appeal to POWER.
inb4 dooper

reply to post by rationaluser


That is primarily what happens on both sides of these Middle East issues.

It is about an endless argument that eventually becomes more about the people arguing than the actual issue itself.

It's pretty silly, but pretty sad too!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by rationaluser

 

That is primarily what happens on both sides of these Middle East issues.

It is about an endless argument that eventually becomes more about the people arguing than the actual issue itself.

It's pretty silly, but pretty sad too!

Cutesy response especially when you accused Matt of working for Israel. As many of you often do. Segye and CBN (not MSM, interestingly enough) already reported that Hezbollah is steadily gaining access to biological and chemical weapons through Syrian assistance.

As for how easy it is to make chemical weapons, do you know what happens when you mix bleach and ammonia? But on a large scale? Enough chlorine gas to eventually be put in a rocket and shot off.

reply to post by Dnevnoi


It's not against the law to work for Israel friend.

Are you anti-Semetic or something?

Israel has the right to hire people, people have the right to work for Israel.

Americans have the right to free speech and to question and to accuse.

You call it cutesty...I call it constitutional and constitutionally protected.

Hizbollah is not planning a chemical or conventional attack on Israel and the media is not a legal policy making body nor a legal court.

The same people who claim the media is some kind of purveyor of the ultimate truth when it favors their individual or collective political aims, decry it as being false and dangerous when it doesn't.

Any news orginization that prints a unsubstantiated account of Hizbollah planning a chemical attack on Israel is considered valid by pro-Israel/pro-Zionitst factions and thus establishes fact.

Any news orginization that prints an unsubstantiated account of the Israeli Defense Force murdering Palestinians and stealing their organs for sale for monetary profit is considered slanderous and irresponsible.

The press is simply what the press is, they write stories, the fact that a story has been written does not make it true, as my above example points out.

If you want to believe one is true simply because it appeared in the press, then you must believe that both are true simply because it appeared in the press.

Personally I only believe what has been proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

There is no evidence that Hizbollah has chemical weapons and the fact that chemical weapons are easy to make does not mean they are making them or have them.

At least Matt has co-employees that support him



[edit on 11/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dnevnoi

 

It's not against the law to work for Israel friend.

Are you anti-Semetic or something?

Israel has the right to hire people, people have the right to work for Israel.

You should probably check and see how I'm an ally of mattpryor and that I support Israel openly before making that assumption. I was pointing out the repeated occurrences of you accusing people of having Israeli connections.

Americans have the right to free speech and to question and to accuse.

You call it cutesty...I call it constitutional and constitutionally protected.

Ahem, internet. Anyone can say anything. I was calling your accusations cutesy.

Hizbollah is not planning a chemical or conventional attack on Israel and the media is not a legal policy making body nor a legal court.

The same people who claim the media is some kind of purveyor of the ultimate truth when it favors their individual or collective political aims, decry it as being false and dangerous when it doesn't.

Any news orginization that prints a unsubstantiated account of Hizbollah planning a chemical attack on Israel is considered valid by pro-Israel/pro-Zionitst factions and thus establishes fact.

Any news orginization that prints an unsubstantiated account of the Israeli Defense Force murdering Palestinians and stealing their organs for sale for monetary profit is considered slanderous and irresponsible.

The press is simply what the press is, they write stories, the fact that a story has been written does not make it true, as my above example points out.

If you want to believe one is true simply because it appeared in the press, then you must believe that both are true simply because it appeared in the press.

Personally I only believe what has been proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

There is no evidence that Hizbollah has chemical weapons and the fact that chemical weapons are easy to make does not mean they are making them or have them.

At least Matt has co-employees that support him

Wow. I love how when one person misinterprets a few words they fly off the handle. I am a supporter of Matt, take a look around! I've gone toe to toe against the likes of masonwatcher a multitude of times when he took on Matt. By the way, if we go along with positivism, then Hezbollah could be making chemical weapons since your theory they are not can be refuted thanks to traces of chemicals and Kuwaiti intelligence.

By the way, my inclusion of Segye and CBN points to the fact that I am showing that not only MSM streams are picking up on it.

[edit on 12-9-2009 by Dnevnoi]

reply to post by Dnevnoi


Kuwaitti Intelligence? Tell the truth your not just a co-employee of Matt's you work as a comedian too?

Was that the vaunted Kuwaiit Intelligence that didn't have a clue their entire nation was about to be overun by the Iraqis?

You have no factual evidence to support that Hizbollah has chemical weapons and have not posted any factual evidence to this thread and neither has anyone else.

A poorly placed and unsourced article based on heresay from a third world emirate monarchy that can not even protect itself only constitutes evidence in the minds of the paranoid, prejudiced, and agenda driven.

Post some factual information and understand that by American standards the accused are INNOCENT until proven guilty.

The Ad Hominid attacks are just deflection from the fact that you have no evidence and neither does anyone else to substantiate your claims of guilt.

You might want to switch allies to the facts and truth as it's the only thing that will set you free in life.

Give my regards to the good folks in Tel Aviv!

Shalom good buddy!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Well in defense of the Western Intelligence Agencies, they were right that Saddam had WMDs, I mean we did deliver them, I'm sure there's an invoice laying around somewhere.

www.philly.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Iraq got germs for weapons program from U.S. in '80s

So technically speaking, they were right, he did have a bio-weapon program. They just forgot to mention that it was US supported. Oh the troubles of having your puppet turn into a real boy.

Now to the issue at hand, Hezbollah and Israel. Well Hezbollah came about due to the invasion and occupation of Lebanaon from 1978-2000, where they fought a guerrilla war against the Israelis. They were strengthened by the injustices committed by the Israeli backed SLA against the people of Southern Lebanon in such places as Khiam where torture was the norm.

“The sadists of Khiam used to electrocute the penises of their prisoners and throw water over their bodies before plunging electrodes into their chests and kept them in pitch-black, solitary confinement for months. For many years, the Israelis even banned the Red Cross from visiting their foul prison. All the torturers fled across the border into Israel when the Israeli army retreated under fire from Lebanon almost seven years ago.” -Robert Fisk, 25 yrs reporting in Lebanon

Hezbollah even has a strict policy against attacks on civilians, condemmed AlQaeda for the WTC attacks, and have issued condemnations against the beheading of Nick Berg, as well as attacks on civinilans in Egypt and Algieria.

Hezbollah has no history of chemical weapons or wmds of any kind and the basis for the claims that they are developing chemical and biological weapons is because of a german report they received protective gear.

I ordered a hazmat suit, gas mask, and testers for chemical and biological agents as well as a radioactivity badge and KI pills, does that mean I am developing anthrax or suitcase nukes in my garage? No, it means that I am preparing in case someone decides to unleash weapons on me.

Israel has a history of using nerve agents on Palestinians as well as making incursions into foreign countries, so wouldn't it be prudent to protect one's self against such a possibility?
Source

According to Haaretz, Hezbollah received gas masks and detection systems for wmds. Sounds like they're taking defensive measures to me.

As to the claim that the people died because of the "chemical weapons" stored in the structure as stated here, death from chemicals doesn't mean chemical weapons, as can be seen here.

Furthermore, the claim that a decontamination team came in and removed all traces of this and that's why there is no proof seems ridiculous. It should be noted that Al-Siyasa, the Kuwaiti paper that initially published the information that serves as a basis for the article listed in the OP, has a long standing bias against Hezbollah, and is in fact known for its steadfast opposition to anything Hezbollah.

I could go on about all the bias involved in this drivel without even hitting on the prophecy crap, but I think I'll just call it a night.

reply to post by digger2381


Thanks for posting all the information you did in your post. It was highly informative and I honestly believe much more realistic to the actual reality on the ground in that part of the world and the underlying motivational factors and idealogies employed.

So many of the articles reposted here on line are poorly sourced and aimed to provoke highly emotional reactions especially fear, where often the proponents of such dubious information and arguments simply try to mask the glaring lack of factual information by fostering emotional arguments aimed at posters who would rather think with their minds instead of a manipulated heart.

Ultimately it becomes about trying to condition people in to not thinking with their minds or examining facts but to act impulsively out of fear or shame.

As a human race, we need to in my humble oppinion look harder at how to foster preemptive peace and not preemptive war, we will never be able to do that ignoring the facts of what is really going on, why and what isn't going on.

Knowledge is the real power, not bombs, and ulitmately that is the power that they want to keep from us so that we will consent to and condone bombs.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dnevnoi

 

Kuwaitti Intelligence? Tell the truth your not just a co-employee of Matt's you work as a comedian too?

There is no such thing as a co-employee. There are employees and coworkers. Since I'm serious on this stuff, no, I am not a comedian.

Was that the vaunted Kuwaiit Intelligence that didn't have a clue their entire nation was about to be overun by the Iraqis?

You have no factual evidence to support that Hizbollah has chemical weapons and have not posted any factual evidence to this thread and neither has anyone else.

Syrian connections, Syria has chemical weapons, Syria dislikes Israel, Syria supplies weapons to Hezbollah. Neither have you posted factual evidence that there is no merit to this idea.

A poorly placed and unsourced article based on heresay from a third world emirate monarchy that can not even protect itself only constitutes evidence in the minds of the paranoid, prejudiced, and agenda driven.

Post some factual information and understand that by American standards the accused are INNOCENT until proven guilty.

Note: First and foremost this is the internet. Secondly, claims like that do not have to be measured against nationalist style rhetoric. Nobody is accusing you, you are accusing people of working for Israel. You are thus violating your own "constitutional" rights. But, since this is the internet it doesn't work like that.

The Ad Hominid attacks are just deflection from the fact that you have no evidence and neither does anyone else to substantiate your claims of guilt.

That's funny, I haven't called you a racist or anti-Semite. In fact, you asked me if I was anti-Semitic, which is more of an Ad Hominid attack than anything I've said. Once again, if I don't have any evidence but words then let us see your evidence. That's right, you don't have any to prove otherwise.

You might want to switch allies to the facts and truth as it's the only thing that will set you free in life.

Give my regards to the good folks in Tel Aviv!

Shalom good buddy!

I'm not in Tel Aviv, I'm in Canada, another country with constitutional rights of intellectual freedom and freedom of speech. Thus what I say and think have the same legal boundaries as you do. You should learn that in this world there are always people who can throw down if they have to. Say hello to Nasrallah for me.

reply to post by Dnevnoi


Let's get this straight? You want proof that sometime does not exist?




When your comedy show comes to South Florida please let me know!

If you are claiming something exists the burden is on you to prove that it exists. If you can't prove it exists for all practical purposes it does not exist.

For instance extra terrasterial life forms. Lot's of people say they exist, no one can prove they exist. Sure maybe they exist, but since no one can prove they exist, what would be the point in wasting effort that something that can't be proven to exist, doesn't exist?

The proof is in the pudding.

Nothing from nothing is nothing. If something does not exist there is nothing.

Something from something = something, yet you actually have to produce the evidence of the something for it to be something.

You want evidence Hizbollah has no chemical weapons watch _______________________________________________

There is your great big blank, if you can't fill it in with something, then there is no something.

Israel by the way has chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and has killed a lot more people and started a lot more wars than Hizbollah.

Most of Israel's friends have Chemical , Biological and Nuclear weapons and they have started a lot more wars and killed far more people than Hizbollah.

So once again using your own faulty circular logic, Israel is far more of a danger than Hizbollah

Now you know and I know that you have no proof that Hizbollah has chemical weapons and plans to attack Israel with Chemical weapons, so why for the sake of religious xenophobia, and racist paranioa do we have to pretend? So you can justify the needless deaths of who knows how many innocent men, women and children you want to pretend are guilty of something to hide the blatant war mongering and murdering of Israel that we all know is guilty of something.

It's a shame that honesty escapes such people who employ such circular logic for if they could actually honestly look in the mirror they would see something far uglier and more evil than their imagined enemies.





[edit on 12/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

A star for you. I could not have said it better. It would be nice to see how the Palestinians could do with modern weapons instead of bottles and toy rockets. I cannot imagine a God who would condone the treatment that Israel gives their neighbors who are their brothers under God.

My dad has always loved my older brother more, but if he bulldozed my house and killed everybody there, I am pretty sure he would not be getting his promised reward in my dad's will. I am sure God views the Israeli aggression the exact same way.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


No one is attacking Israel? Are you kidding? They face rocket attacks almost on a daily basis-


This was yesterday's attack-


link

Originally posted by groingrinder
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

A star for you. I could not have said it better. It would be nice to see how the Palestinians could do with modern weapons instead of bottles and toy rockets. I cannot imagine a God who would condone the treatment that Israel gives their neighbors who are their brothers under God.

My dad has always loved my older brother more, but if he bulldozed my house and killed everybody there, I am pretty sure he would not be getting his promised reward in my dad's will. I am sure God views the Israeli aggression the exact same way.

My brother never fired rockets at me, never blew up my car, nor kidnapped me and held me hostage, nor committed a homicide bombing on my property...


What I find ironic is that if these people demonizing Israel were to visit the 'peaceful' Palestinians, they would probably be kidnapped for ransom.

[edit on 12-9-2009 by stevegmu]

[edit on 12-9-2009 by stevegmu]

reply to post by stevegmu


An unnamed source, fired rockets at Israeli Territory, note the unnamed source within Lebanon's security force, and the word Territory, meaning that it wasn't Israel, but Territory considered by Israel to belong to it but in dispute.

What is also in dispute is of course why the Israelis themselves don't know where these rockets landed or that they were fired!

Hey when your comedy show comes to South Florida I would like to see it too!

You guys what normally plat the Catskills, the Poconos?

Too funny, an unamed source in the Lebanes army says...

Wow this is the biggest news since Hiroshima, I am surprised it only got the 6 lines of space it did...

Please let us know when something really happens.

reply to post by stevegmu

What I find ironic is that if these people demonizing Israel were to visit the 'peaceful' Palestinians, they would probably be kidnapped for ransom.

Yeah, I would much rather be spit on, murdered and have my organs stolen and sold on the Black Market by the Israelis than kidnapped by the Palestinians and held for ransom!

I can't wait to catch the rest of your comedy act!