Mindfulness, nirvana, suicide, & OmegaPoint!?

reply to post by silent thunder


I like your views on 1) & 2). Your right I shouldnt worry about nirvana or enlightenment, but i will remain focusing on mindfulness. =)

How do you feel about simply not cooperating with life, refusal to eat and drink water? You are not killing yourself, you are taking no action. Didn’t Gandhi do something like this?

Regarding suicide, I hold an ambiguous view. None of us asked to be here (as far as we know), so in a sense it would seem we have an innate right to leave. There is no body of evidence to support the fact that life per se is a wonderful thing. Clearly for many it is a nightmare.

And yet...what keeps me here is primarily my bonds to my family and loved ones, and a sense of responsibility to them. Love, responsibility...powerful medicine.

In younger days curiosity itself was a strong motive for sticking around, even through experiences of deep depression. This has faded to some extent, although my curiosity to "see what happens next" still seems almost boundless. I also think those who are feeling the urge to end it all can help themselves by thinking thusly: "I can always end it tomorrow if I want. Why not stick around one more day just to see what happens?" Slowly, tortoise-like, day-by-day, this attitude can help many depressed people crawl through the worst trenches, I believe.

"The universe is not only stranger than we know: it is stranger than we can know." -J.B.S. Haldane. Use this fact to stimulate curiosity. Harness curiosity to support life itself.

Originally posted by cavrac
How do you feel about simply not cooperating with life, refusal to eat and drink water? You are not killing yourself, you are taking no action. Didn’t Gandhi do something like this?

Something like this yes. He decided to take no action for a cause. But you bring up a intresting point, Ask yourself if you can take no action, I said almost instantly no out of fear of pain. But why did i think that? My ego? isn't pain an illusion?

EDIT: Now I'm thinking that i shouldn't so i can continue my bodhisattva path and help others. I need to stop clinging onto any fear especially pain -_-

[edit on 10-9-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]

Originally posted by cavrac
How do you feel about simply not cooperating with life, refusal to eat and drink water? You are not killing yourself, you are taking no action. Didn’t Gandhi do something like this?

Gandhi also advocated ahimsa or non violence. I doubt he didn't eat because he chose not to cooperate with life, it would be an act of violence against oneself. Instead I believe he fasted to gain understanding of life, as a religious (hindu) practice to come closer to God. It was also a statement that he didn't want to cooperate with certain elements of society.

Originally posted by 4stral4pprentice


Something like this yes. He decided to take no action for a cause. But you bring up a intresting point, Ask yourself if you can take no action, I said almost instantly no out of fear of pain. But why did i think that? My ego? isn't pain an illusion?

Pain may or may not be seen as an illusion from a philosophical perspective, but it is truly real for those who experience it, I assure you.

"Life is suffering" = First noble truth. Buddhism does not deny the "phenomenological" reality of suffering. That is, they do not deny that this is something experienced by sentient beings. Quite the contrary. What they deny is that it has INTRINSIC EXISTENCE apart from the rest of the cosmos.

It's tricky working with Western translations of Buddhist material because they tend to over-emphasize the "illusiory" aspects of reality, probably due to linguistic differences and also a Western fascination with this distinctive facet of Eastern religion. But I think its important to remember the doctrine of the Middle Way: That is, phenomena (i.e., pain, individual existence and experience, etc.) are not denied as "totally illusory" on a level of what we experience. That is one extreme denied by Buddhism. What IS denied is that such phenomena have independent or permanent existence seperate from collections of causes and effects.

For example, a human being clearly "exists" and experiences various things on a purely phenominological level. To deny this is one extreme. Yet the idea that the human (or his experience) have permanent existence (such as a "immortal core soul," as in Christianity) is also denied as the other extreme. The Middle Way steers a course betweeen these two extremes.

When most Buddhists speak of the "Void" (shunyata), for example, they are not referring to a total lack of experience. Rather, they are stating that "individuals and objects are devoid of intrinsic, permanent existence." The word "void" in such situations would be better (if more cumbersomely) translated as something like "absence of totally independent existence." This is a subtle but critical difference, and one often "lost in translation."



[edit on 9/10/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder


could you put it in laymans terms for me? lol i'm having trouble reading it and comprehending it all.

This is the part im having trouble with, below.
"What they deny is that it has INTRINSIC EXISTENCE apart from the rest of the cosmos.

It's tricky working with Western translations of Buddhist material because they tend to over-emphasize the "illusiory" aspects of reality, probably due to linguistic differences and also a Western fascination with this distinctive facet of Eastern religion. But I think its important to remember the doctrine of the Middle Way: That is, phenomena (i.e., pain, individual existence and experience, etc.) are not denied as "totally illusory" on a level of what we experience. That is one extreme denied by Buddhism. What IS denied is that such phenomena have independent or permanent existence seperate from collections of causes and effects.

For example, a human being clearly "exists" and experiences various things on a purely phenominological level. To deny this is one extreme. Yet the idea that the human (or his experience) have permanent existence (such as a "immortal core soul," as in Christianity) is also denied as the other extreme. The Middle Way steers a course betweeen these two extremes.
"

[edit on 10-9-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]

Originally posted by 4stral4pprentice
reply to post by silent thunder

 

could you put it in laymans terms for me? lol i'm having trouble reading it and comprehending it all.

lol...sorry if that was too technical. Let's try again. Buddha believed in the "Middle Way." That implies lots of different stuff, from moderation in behavior, to the way we look at verbal communications, to more philosophical stuff.

Simply put:
1) We "exist," in that we "are here" and feel and experience things.
2) We can't be said to have "intrinsic (or permanent) existence" because we are always changing...the cells in our body are constantly being replaced, the ideas in our mind are changing, etc. Eventually our bodies die and we pass away. Also, we do not exist seperately from the rest of reality: Our experience at any given moment is caused and conditioned by a number of factors, both within ourselves and impinging upon us from the external world.
3) Between the two extreme ideas that "we don't exist" and "something in us is permanent and intrinsic and goes on forever" is "The Middle Way."

The same can be applied to other phenomona, such as pain, pleasure, the contents of our mind, physical objects, etc etc...

Its not such a complex idea in essence but its very tricky to explain adequitely in words. Its something every Buddhist has to think about carefully, perhaps for many years, before completely understanding it and its implications, so don't worry if the doctrine seems hard to grasp immediately.

reply to post by silent thunder


lol its okay! =) Thanks for being part of my life and helping me. I love you and everyone else here and beyond.

I'm curious yet again! Yay! Okay so here's my new question. How do you feel about suicide when your put in a hell situation or you know your about to die a horrible death and can avoid it by just pulling the trigger? Is that so wrong? your going to die anyways, might as well be peaceful and painless right Omega? or anyone else who wants to answer, please go ahead! =)

Originally posted by 4stral4pprentice
reply to post by OmegaPoint

 

Neccessary suffering of a bodhisattva? Eh, although i consider myself a Buddhist and Bodhisattva i think other Buddhists are blinded by a set path, Buddha even says not to accept anything as the complete truth or way as it blinds you. I think no movement or action is neccessary. Bodhisattvas choose to conrinue their cycle of death and re-birth to free other sentient beings, but why? Arent we all immortal, thus we all will be freed eventually or why cant you help just as much or more in the afterlife? I mean it seems pointless just like suicide. Selfishness and doing good things to me just seem like ideas or opinions. What are your thoughts?

You are forgetting Karma. We are all one, according to Buddha. Our every action has a consequence, and we must face the consequences of our actions in the actions of others. Suicide is only in extremely rare circumstances an action that doesn not directly affect others. Kill yourself by slitting your wrists in a motel bathroom and the maid will find you and never be able to forget it. Jump in front of a train? What of your family? It is the ultimate selfish act, but it is your own choices that you will make after death that you need to worry about.

According to the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, after death you will travel through the bardos, you will be faced with the lesser lights, the lure of the world you have left, and if you have karmic weight upon you, the actions you have made will force you to attach to these lights and you will be drawn back into the cycle of life and death. If you are free of this, you have lived as an enlightened being, you will escape Samsara.

nirvana means a complete extinction of all physical attributes, not necessarily an extinction of self.

the refuge of the Buddha is his own mind. A Buddha is immortal, like a god, they are not dead or extinct. If a buddha wanted to come back to life, all they would have to do is let go of their mind and return to the world. However, they are liberated from physical life because they know its imperfections.

reply to post by ancient_wisdom


Not according to the author of "The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying", Sogyal Rinpoche, a tibetan Dzogchen Lama. A truly enlightened person will have the choice after death of whether to be reincarnated or not. The Dalai Lama is one such Buddha who chooses to come back time after time, but not all have done so. The Buddha himself died.

Originally posted by 4stral4pprentice
I'm curious yet again! Yay! Okay so here's my new question. How do you feel about suicide when your put in a hell situation or you know your about to die a horrible death and can avoid it by just pulling the trigger? Is that so wrong? your going to die anyways, might as well be peaceful and painless right Omega? or anyone else who wants to answer, please go ahead! =)

I'm kind of facing that one at the moment. I've had a chronic pain condition for 5 years which was recently made much worse by a bad electric shock. It affects my whole body with the most intense pain imaginable, and will never get better now. It's possibly that I could live for another couple of decades if I ditch pain meds, but the thought of facing that is far worse than the prospect of facing death. I have no doubt that at some point it will become too much for me and I'll be booking a flight to Switzerland. I know that my loved ones understand why this is an option, but it will obviously still hurt them. I'm still working out whether or not it's the right, or even acceptible, thing to do.

Some very good points have been brought up, as for my afterlife, i believe i wont be lured back to this existence so to say. I have all i need now and forever. What i want to do in the next dimension is to gain a better understanding of everything and to meditate on helping to raise vibrations of all or spread light/love. As of now i am still trying to do both.

EDIT: i have very few attachments left in this world or existence but upon death i believe i will still have everything so when I'm not in this world i wont feel pain of any sort. i had a dream not to long ago where i thought i was really dead, and i totally accepted it and had no worries whatsoever.

EDIT2: i have attachments to everything, but i am everything, all the time and always will be. so why feel pain for what i cant lose?

EDIT3: yeah i kind of had a epiphany on edit2 =)

i love you all or should i say, i love myself

[edit on 23-9-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]

At the risk of repeating myself, it is important to remember that Buddhism is the ultimate "big tent." That is to say, it contains many schools and streams of thought that might seem to contradict one another. Consider the basic doctrines of, say, Tibetan esoteric Buddhism, Japanese Nichiren Shoshu, and Sri Lankan Theravada, and they almost seem like totally different religions, rather than sub-groupings within the same religion. But that's OK, because Buddha preached the doctrine of "expedient means:" stating that in different times and places, different doctrines, methods, and ways of teaching may be appropriate.

Thus freed from being anchored to a single text or rigid code of practice, Buddhism has produced many beautiful and differing flowers in the last 2500 years. I think over 90% of Buddhists would accept over 90% of all other Buddhist paths as being as valid as their own chosen path. "Many paths, one mountain," as the Zen people say. Enjoy your meanderings up and down the cliffs and bluffs...

reply to post by silent thunder


I love you.

Um, yeah i would agree because i myself follow many doctrines and teachings in different Buddhist teachings while sculpting it into my own form of Buddhism.

Originally posted by Jesus H Christ

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
Please. Get over yourselves, honestly.


[edit on 7-9-2009 by pluckynoonez]

This is coming from a member who constantly refers to herself in the 3rd person on almost every thread I've encountered her in.

Moving right along,
I posted this in a similar thread and feels it is just as relevant here.

I have to say I agree with the OP.

I happen to remember fleeting moments before I was born and also in my mothers womb. I remember being forced against my will to come here and given no other choice about it. I didn't want to come and still don't want to be here but I am here only for the love of my children and wife.

I have no clue as to why I was forced to come here but I do know this....
There is life after physical death. I have, and continue to have out of body experiences. They are re-assuring and beautiful. I can't wait untill my time comes.

This is nothing more than a prison cell without bars folks. We have all been duped. I cannot undo a life time of brainwashing in a single post but rest assured this "life" is bullsh** and not a single damned one of us is truely free and never will be untill this madness ends.

S&F for this response.

I can tell you I do not have OBE's even though I try a lot but I do have a sixth sense and I feel things I am agreeing with you and I could not have said it better than you did.

There are so many people,so many that do not have a clue as to what is going on if we will all see it as it is in an instant, we would all want to check out . Is the power of the true self that keeps us sane and I am sure there is a purpose in everything . I do not agree with suicide even though the subject is questionable .

My dad had cancer final stage when he found out he refused absolutely any medical help and he chose to be home and die there in pain hunger and thirst as he had lung and throat cancer . Is that suicide I think this is arguable .....is ones decision in certain circumstances but I guess we can not judge the ones that do it in either way . I have to be honest and say even though was my dad I thought many times during this last weeks that an injection or something that will put him to " sleep" will be very helpful for his soul but I do not know if it was because i was suffering seeing him like that or because his suffering was to much .

With this said I am curious on opinions .