Mindfulness, nirvana, suicide, & OmegaPoint!?

Okay heres a quote from OmegaPoint:"Suicide is like giving the finger to life, and therefore to the source of life, and all suffering can be made meaningful, it just takes courage. There is no grace, no love, in suicide. It is a selfish act devoid of meaning and purpose. It's a terrible terrible tragedy when it happens. And is not our life simply on loan from the source of life anyway.. what right do WE have to pull the plug on our own life, and if there is no such thing as death, then it would be foolhardy to attempt an escape via suicide..
"

the ONLY problem i see with suicide is it takes you away from present moment awareness, IF its a selfish act. QUESTION!!! nirvana as i see it is free of notions and ideas, would you say thats correct? so wouldnt nirvana ultimatly destroy the notion of mindfulness thus making suicide..... you get what im saying? or perhaps nirvana itself voids you from doing anything but simply being, which might aswell be mindfulness?

reply to post by 4stral4pprentice


i never understood the demonization of suicide...i mean what does it matter how you died, your dead...sure you may cause problems for others or hurt others....but your dead and these matters dont concern you anymore.

Sure you could say this is selfish, but in reality arent the ones calling you selfish the selfish ones?

I dont approve or condemn it...just like everything else its a matter of perspective.....

just my 2 cents on a controversial topic.

The reason it's wrong is because killing one's self, is no different than killing another. Life is life, and it's all one.

We belong to one another and to life. No man is an island unto himself. We're all one big family, that's the truth. We must therefore be willing to reach out, and also be the hand that grasps the one that is reaching out. We are that hand.


Edit: Think about it, there is the you, and the you that suffers. They are not the same being. There is...the Witness aka Mindfulness..

Suicide would simply represent an attempt by the ego, to kill the spirit, and like I said, that's a fools errand anyway.

Better to die while still alive and face eternity, in the present, and do the work of bringing about the end of suffering, for yourself and by extension on behalf of all beings, everywhere, and for all time. Better to embrace a meaningful suffering, and render it sacred! Make the move from uneccessary suffering to the neccessary suffering of the Bodhisatva, and then watch, and bear witness, with mindfulness, as it begins to dissolve, in an eternal Love.

"Do not be afraid, nor let your hearts be troubled, for it pleased the father to share his kingdom with all his children."

Love and Light,

OmegaPoint

[edit on 7-9-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Neccessary suffering of a bodhisattva? Eh, although i consider myself a Buddhist and Bodhisattva i think other Buddhists are blinded by a set path, Buddha even says not to accept anything as the complete truth or way as it blinds you. I think no movement or action is neccessary. Bodhisattvas choose to conrinue their cycle of death and re-birth to free other sentient beings, but why? Arent we all immortal, thus we all will be freed eventually or why cant you help just as much or more in the afterlife? I mean it seems pointless just like suicide. Selfishness and doing good things to me just seem like ideas or opinions. What are your thoughts?

The afterlife?

That's always now, forever now.

To "enter the kingdom of heaven" and come to the end of time, is nirvanna, so you're right that mindfulness and presence, is everything.

Ego dies, but that's just a construct, or who we THINK we are, and the one who suffers, right?

But what about the one who is aware? That never dies.

I think we need to break the calendar and clock time, using it only as a convenience as needed, but LIVE in eternity, in the world, but not OF the world, since we are nothing more or less than eternal beings having a human experience, to learn love, and to re-discover our true identity as children of God, as children of light, and as part of one big heavenly family.

The glue, is the love, and it's the reason for existence, the first/last cause, the alpha and the omega.

To commit suicide is to presume to have the ability to assign a worthless value to one's self, but that's a lie sold by the ego. The true self, the "I am" of being, is of infinite value and is an inextricable part of The Great I Am who is Love itself.

The truth is we live in an ocean of love in-formation, and absolute awareness.

We must learn how to swim in it, and accept it.

I think you're right that there is no path. No action, nothing to justify, nothing to do.

And so the space of nothing is already here, now. And there, where nothing matters, what are we to do? Kill outselves?! That's absurd!

[edit on 7-9-2009 by OmegaPoint]

What is a lifetime in the great scheme of things ? no one dies. Suicide is only a term that apply's here.

If we do not die, and our body's are ours. What harm does it do to go home ?? Upon you death you may quickly realize that none of this really matters, .... and it only means what we want it to.

Yet all of our memories mean as much as they ever did, a drop of feeling into the infinity that we are.

Although I don't mind the idea of suicide. Most people who practice it do so because they see no other way out, trapped in despair, and hopelessness, ..... that is no way to transfer over. As sometimes the entity holds onto their despair so much, .... that even after they die they continue to create it. Trapped in their own " hell" .

We should never give up.

reply to post by IntastellaBurst


Yeah and it would suck to be someone who is forever killing themselves or trying to kill themselves from life to life, forever seeking an end to life, in search of an eternal death.

It's an f-U to life, and to the source of life. And it's an error in judgement, a judgement about one's own value, to God.

If we weren't meant to be here, we would not be here to begin with.

And it's an honour to be mired in suffering - with a lifetime of problems to solve.

The willing sufferer contributes much to the whole learning experience, and for there to BE liberation from suffering, there needs to be a suffering to begin with, so it IS a neccessary suffering, neccessary for the end of suffering. This is the perspective that the person who may be contemplating suicide needs to consider - what life might look like looking back from the perspective of the end of the suffering..

"The more that suffering carves into your being, the more JOY you can contain."
~ Khalil Gibran "The Prophet"

that said, death has no perspective on life. There is no death. Just information. And Love.

Mostly tripe. Sorry, I do not want to offend anyone here, but the postings to this topic (including the original posting) are mostly tripe. Anyone can minimize suffering, it's like saying to an 90 year-old person with health problems "being old is a state of mind, buck up!" Please. Get over yourselves, honestly.






[edit on 7-9-2009 by pluckynoonez]

The natural dying process, when there is acceptance, is incredible graceful.

I woudn't be advocating for 90 year olds to start offing themselves.

Get over OUR selves? That's amuzing..

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
Please. Get over yourselves, honestly.


[edit on 7-9-2009 by pluckynoonez]

This is coming from a member who constantly refers to herself in the 3rd person on almost every thread I've encountered her in.

Moving right along,
I posted this in a similar thread and feels it is just as relevant here.

I have to say I agree with the OP.

I happen to remember fleeting moments before I was born and also in my mothers womb. I remember being forced against my will to come here and given no other choice about it. I didn't want to come and still don't want to be here but I am here only for the love of my children and wife.

I have no clue as to why I was forced to come here but I do know this....
There is life after physical death. I have, and continue to have out of body experiences. They are re-assuring and beautiful. I can't wait untill my time comes.

This is nothing more than a prison cell without bars folks. We have all been duped. I cannot undo a life time of brainwashing in a single post but rest assured this "life" is bullsh** and not a single damned one of us is truely free and never will be untill this madness ends.

reply to post by Jesus H Christ


Hmmm, I both like your post but am put off by the end as you seem to get more angry and then claim to know the truth about this "life" and that we are prisoners. I've had some OBE's as well, but even my most vivid recollections are personal, and not an absolute worldly truth, the brain is capable of crazy things.

As to the OP nice post, very intriguing. Suicide is a very tricky subject when thinking about its rationality and effects. It more often than not leaves behind souls on this earth who are confused, saddened and even enraged by it. Family, friends and others often don't understand, and if young, it can ruin a parent's life. I find it hard to imagine any "good" coming out of a suicide. If life is truly a classroom for the soul, then isn't suicide kind of like skipping out early before the lesson is through? If life is a test of will and endurance isn't suicide just calling it quits before you've reached a goal.

I've had a few friends or close acquaintances take their own lives, and it has always come as a shock. I'm not sure there is any understanding it, as one poster stated, our understanding is limited by our experiences in this matter. If one can not imagine killing themselves how can they understand what goes through the mind of someone that does. At any rate, I can say that most suicide "victims" leave behind a group of people who would be more than willing to help out, to resolve any problems, to offer empathy and love.

We are conditioned early on to fear death and view it as negative. I can see a way to end ones life while being totally at peace with your creator and your decision. It can be a beautiful thing if you let it. I really want you all to step back and try to put the conditioning away for a moment and see if you can find a way to be at peace with leaving this dimension and not having it be soo tragic.

It is far from a selfish act, or at least it can be. The selfish ones are the ones who can't see the beauty in leaving this world behind. When we mourn, we mourn not for the departed, for they are in a better place. So why then do we mourn??? Because we will...........say it with me now...........miss them. How selfish indeed. Here you have infinite consciousness rejoining infinite consciousness and becoming one with its self, and all we can do is be sad because we are going to miss them.


I am no better mind you. I would cry like a baby if one of my sons committed suicide or just plain ol' died but I realize the folly in such an response. Two edged sword.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
The afterlife?

That's always now, forever now.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Those first two lines are the only reasons I see how you properly can justify not commiting suicide, it takes you away from the now like i said previous. Thus making suicide ultimately pointless. Everything else like how it would be a middle finger to the creator, seem to me like conditioned views of whats negative and whats positive, Because are we not forever living? we will live even through commiting suicide SO POINTLESS!

Originally posted by Jesus H Christ
We are conditioned early on to fear death and view it as negative. I can see a way to end ones life while being totally at peace with your creator and your decision. It can be a beautiful thing if you let it. I really want you all to step back and try to put the conditioning away for a moment and see if you can find a way to be at peace with leaving this dimension and not having it be soo tragic.

It is far from a selfish act, or at least it can be.

DISCLAIMER: Despite what i say here in these posts, i do have a profound gut feelings to help others. I can't explain it or why honestly.

Yes it can be far from a selfish act. To commit suicide for no reason, has no reason, it also takes you away from the present. To commit suicide for the good of others has profound meaning, to commit it to escape, also has no reason.

Thank you everyone, for helping me clear this up if not to you then at least myself. A flower for you, also take my love =)

many lives their day to day lives these days as a form of slow suicide

we knows we're all gonna be invited to the gates of death one day

and like any guest ... one can be a good guest or other than a good guest

the selfishness of suicide is not the reasons that took them there but the reasons they leave behind

there aren't ever good or bad reasons for suicide but there's all sorts of reasons for it

everyday we triumph over all of these reasons to avert it

because there's still much good left to be done and have much more to do

Its worth keeping in mind that "nirvana" is construed in widely different ways by different branches of Buddhsim. Classical Theravada sees it as a kind of permanent cessation that takes place after death and is the ultimate goal. Much of Mahayana Buddhism, on the other hand, seeks imminance of enlightenment in the current life ("hongaku suiso," or "inherenet enlightenment"), and some actually see the pursuit of Nirvana as a selfish act. According to these theories, one should seek a "middle path" between belief in oneself as a permanent entity and total cessation. Others (Tendai, Nichiren branches, etc.) hold the doctrine of "3,000 worlds in a single thought-moment:" That is, every state from the deepest hell through the various realms of hungry ghosts, animals, humans, heavenly beings, etc. and up to Buddhahood are actually manifest in each and every momement. And of course many Zen folks would tell you that after enlightenment you go "back to the market with helping hands," or "chop wood and carry water" (i.e., just live your daily life mindfully) without seeking nirvana.

It all depends on who you talk to or what text you read...

my 2 cents.

reply to post by silent thunder


true in all the essence of the path of the eternal pilgrim

well done ....

to each his/her own ... each carries what each is capable of

nirvana IS the same for all , the difference is how each views nirvana

to a runner training for the Olympics , running from dawn to dusk is training
for a person recovering from a minor stroke running half an hour a day is a life saving recuperation

there is not magic or anything mystical promises of Gautama in the essence of Buddhist / Zen enlightenment
Life is magical enough to an enlightened individual because "life" is a banquet of miracles and not the ho hum mundane point of escape for the modern interpretation of social rut that many finds themselves in

reply to post by third_eye


After 18 years of Buddhist study I have concluded thus for myself:

1) Follow the Eightfold Path insofar as is possible in daily life.
2) Don't worry about "enlightenment" or "nirvana." Maybe its there, maybe not. Who cares?
3) Your milage may vary.