Be a good puppet...Let's all buy into the us -vs- them paradigm. It'll be fun...

i hope one day people will be able to see the existence of the left / right paradigm. if we are ever going to change things we must alter the current system. the current system is designed by its very nature to disinfranchise the people.

reply to post by seagull


Here is an observation from my time as a ATS member .

While I am not saying that you are necessary wrong I have found on the boards that almost always those that make the case you do are themselves bigger puppets of the usual characters then the people they offer debating an issue with . Alex Jones , John Lear both string gullible people along and I don't know how much of what Ron Paul spews that he actually believes .

Originally posted by seagull

Has it ever occured to any of you pro's and anti's that this is exactly what the "interests" want? Hmmmm?

No.

No matter what, you'll always have someone who disagrees with you. Many people believe abortion is alright while many others think it's wrong. It's not about "interests." It's about who thinks they're right about a certain topic.

As for conservative vs liberal - so many citizens bash Obama because of their bitterness about a black man being president. Others are bitter because a Democratic government is now in control of their lives.

Thanks to Fox News, we can be raped with fear and paranoia. Obama hates white people. His health care plan is evil. Obama is anti-American..so on..so on...and because of all this propaganda, Obama haters and gullible morons can sit there and bash their president with inaccurate information and rumors they heard from apes such as Glenn Beck.

For Fox, it is about interest and profit when it comes to dividing the country...but Everyone will always be against everyone.

It's always been that way in every country since the dawn of mankind. Nothing will ever change. Even if Fox News did not exist, we'd still be in verbal civil wars.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by GorehoundLarry]

reply to post by seagull


seagull, I could not had stated it better myself, oh wait I might have.

Are You "Right-Wing Fringe", or "Left-Wing Fringe" and How Will They Push You

Just teasing, of course, but I do agree with you as well as some of the other posts along the way.

This is why I do not subscribe the dichotomy of falsehoods in Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal, because this forces you to choose sides, and when you pick sides you will lose out on well rounded insight into the unique vision of seeing both sides of the coin, politically speaking, as well as other ways.

I try and sometimes fail, to keep from picking sides, because the way I see it, you are either in the boat or in the water, if you're in the boat you're trying to keep others out and from capsizing it, and if you're in the water you sure as Hell want to strangle that idiot that keeps hitting you on the head with the oar because you're just trying to survive.

reply to post by seagull


I agree with that to a great extent. The quicker we realize who's really in charge and how much we're set up, the better of we'll be.

With that said, here is the part where I disagree slightly. The way I see it is associating yourself with certain beliefs and ideologies is perfectly acceptable. It's when you literally begin to hate the opposition is when the problem arises.

For instance, I'm a dedicated Christian who has firmly made up my mind (but am not a 'burn the witches!' type). I'm pro-life because every human is precious (but you would never see me bombing an abortion clinic and I understand abortion in certain cases like when the mother's life is in danger). I associate with the conservative side of politics because the majority of their stances appeal to me (but I don't hate liberals and can see how they are correct on certain issues). A woman (but not a man hater). White (but not a racist). Etc.

Like they say, we have to stand for something or we'll fall for anything. Decisions and being apart of a 'group' is fine. It's falling into the trap where we believe that it's our group against another. We can't determine our race but we shouldn't fall for the racial wars the media tries to feed us. It's OK to choose your political party but don't try to sabotage another just so you can be the majority.

Does that make any sense? If we can respect or tolerate each other's differences, then there's nothing wrong with our differences. And always remember there are many actors in the play that lead you to believe they are the star when there is really a director hiding behind the stage curtain.

it's a symptom. a symptom of the power structure of our government. i can't even remember the last time i saw more than the "two parties" at a presidential debate.

those in power are there because of their or their party's wealth. they get more face time(tv, ads etc), they drown out all others. and those who fall for it will never go out searching for what many of us know to be the truth: it's all a sham. there is no left or right, there's only one super party dedicated to keeping themselves and their friends rich, deciding what direction the country takes no matter what the people want, dividing people with their scripted schpeel so they hear key phrases and stop thinking...

how do we change it after we've changed ourselves? i don't know....nothing seems to be working, but i'll tell you what wont work...hugs and kisses and positive thinking.....

we may all soon come to the horrible realization that nothing short of all out war will change the path we've let ourselves be led down.

One President started a war on false pretenses and sent over 4,000 innocent young men and women to fight and die for a lie.

The other President really hasn't had time to do much of anything expect try and wipe the dog crap off his shoes that was left by his predecessor.

Big difference if you ask me

Us versus Them?

That is the way it has always been.

That is the way it will always be.

This phenomenon runs across all species.

Its as much a part of nature as blood circulation.

Live with it.

Fantastic thread. I've been trying to explain this concept to everyone I know for a couple years now. Sadly, it only seems to sink in every once in a while.

The us-vs-them mentality is simply an elaborate song and dance to distract you from the true sources of our problems. The problem is, everything in our culture promotes the paradigm, so a shift will likely never happen. I hope that some day I live in a world where the majority of people can see behind the veil, and realize that we are all better off by not fabricating conflict with our fellow human beings.

seagull,
What people keep forgetting (what I am returning to) is that we are not built into categories. We are all Americans with different belief systems, which cannot be categorically organized into groups. No one individual is an absolute conservative or liberal (etc...). We are all human beings with certain preferences, which separate our uniqueness from others.

When I see someone protest against the WTO, I see a human being standing up against something he/she disagrees with. If I see someone holding a protest sign against heathcare reform, I still see an unique individual who disagrees with a law.

Since I live in a color blind world, I do not notice superficial difference. I do not like when people point out our surface traits. When people use those traits for political means, I find it clashing with my own belief systems.

I think the media and politicians put us into groups, for they get a certain high off the idea of division. If they are able to widen that division, politician and media circuits can use hate as momentum to pass legislation.

I am worried about being caught in-between two conflicting paradigms, which are fighting over superficial differences in belief,ethnics, etc...

Too bad there is not a law that prohibits media groups and politicians from using labeling.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
As for conservative vs liberal - so many citizens bash Obama because of their bitterness about a black man being president. Others are bitter because a Democratic government is now in control of their lives.

GorehoundLarry,
I do not buy into that. I think people who protest against Bush and Obama are genuinely concerned. Politicians and the media take advantage of the opportunity, so that they can create a momentum of hate. Its news to them.

---- Added after the star was added --

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Thanks to Fox News, we can be raped with fear and paranoia. Obama hates white people. His health care plan is evil. Obama is anti-American..so on..so on...and because of all this propaganda, Obama haters and gullible morons can sit there and bash their president with inaccurate information and rumors they heard from apes such as Glenn Beck.

Why do people have a hard time with one news network being different from the others? FOX is a really nice station.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by GorehoundLarry

As for conservative vs liberal - so many citizens bash Obama because of their bitterness about a black man being president. Others are bitter because a Democratic government is now in control of their lives.

I have to disagree that this is the issue with the majority. Sure there are a handful who's reasons for not liking Obama are as shallow as what you mentioned, but for the most part democrats, republicans and non affiliates alike are more concerned with the direction he is taking this country and where all the money is going, than something as trivial as the color of his skin. He is the one playing the race card not the people.

I believe they used to call this process "divide and conquer". Why change it...it has worked so well for them all along. And...with how stupid "the people" are, I see no sign of this changing.

Would it be too much to ask for people to decide to do what is in our best interest as a country and a society instead of worrying about who is credited with the implementation? As a computer programmer, when something becomes this messed up, it is time to tear it down and start from scratch. Sure...they will find a way to screw it up again, but we can worry about that later.

Maybe...just maybe...install some kind of Governmental Anti-Virus to weed out the bugs for good. That usually requires regular "updating" and "definition" for each virus that comes out. Pretty much the same thing as "learning" what is really going on, and "voting" out the bugs...errr...Representatives. You know them...the ones who refuse to "represent" our wishes.

Hmmmm...this may be easier than I thought!

Science says that political development is genetic and that would be very difficult to control, but I say not impossible. I like what I see in this thread and some others that have currently popped up. Perhaps we are all getting tired of fighting and finally starting to think straight.

The ability to self analyze is what makes us human. I think that we will overcome these times only to fall again later in the future over something else. But thats o.k. so long as there is] a future.

This is a great discussion!

Originally posted by WeAreAWAKE
Would it be too much to ask for people to decide to do what is in our best interest as a country and a society instead of worrying about who is credited with the implementation? As a computer programmer, when something becomes this messed up, it is time to tear it down and start from scratch. Sure...they will find a way to screw it up again, but we can worry about that

That is a very good observation. Everything has to be partisan in favor of one group, so that they can get the credit for re-election. Its s*cks.

Add the lobbyists who play the system in the back, and you have a mafia style government benefiting from categorical-human conflict. Regardless about who wins the fight, the lobbyists seem to come out better at the end.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by seagull

All too many of us have too much of our personal outlook invested in our ideology, and an attack on the ideology becomes an attack on us... This is something that many of us need to realize and try to move away from...it won't be easy, truely worthwhile endevours almost never are.

Never truer words were ever said.

Its funny how maddening we all can be sometimes to one another with differing opinions.

There are those who do try to see the other side and those who are 100% set with no room to budge.

I see it as a mode of protection and self preservation. Some natural mental condition that is meant to help us. Possibly help us in our convictions and steadfastness. If you have lived your life believing things were one way and you have done just fine, why is it essential to open your (eyeballs) mind to see anothers perspective?

For self preservation it may not be essential, but for societal advancement it is most definitely is essential. Thats what is happening now, I believe. Society is trying to advance itself and it is kicking in the "self preservation mode" in many of our brains.

Some are more susceptable to advances in "social enlightenment" (especially the young and meek) and others are staunch opposers of it...(the old and stubborn).

Only those of us that are wise will evade the traps of US vs. THEM and accept the feasibly best for the whole. The question is...what is the best for the whole? In my opinion (usually the correct opinion... )what is usually best for the individual is best for the whole...

reply to post by Pathos


You kind of lost me when you said Fox News is a "nice" station.


Sorry, but you're pretty off with that one.

reply to post by AshleyD

I agree.

It is the fermentation of hate conjured up by a minority within each respective group that overshadows the true intent of each groups normal rational objective thinking (normally for the good of everyone).

I dont know of any "association" that states their goals to exclude some while welcoming others (besides flatout racist gangs).

This is where the US vs. THEM mentality thrives and becomes more than just simple stubbornness. It becomes a way to demonize those who think differently. And it breeds off of ignorance and arrogance.

reply to post by xpert11


I woul say Ron Paul believes every word he "spews."

Some may be surprised that even though he is currently Republican, he has ran for office and President as a libertarian before. He uses the system to his advantage. As he knows running as an outsider would get him nowhere.

And I would have to say Paul doesnt use an Us vs. Them attitude at all.

You would find Republicans, democrats and everything in between supporting hi sconstituional based ideas...

You should try to inform yourself on his ideas before lumping him in with the likes of Alex Jones...yuck...shivers

reply to post by OhZone


I completely disagree. Us vs. Them is propogated by those who wish to divide because it makes for good profit margins. Makes for good enemies. Makes for good ratings, and makes for damn fine religious rhetoric...

I dont believe it is natural at all...

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by seagull

 

Ideologies, political or otherwise, are self inflicted prisons of the mind.

For those who wish to manipulate, those who embrace said ideologies have done most of the work for them.

Sorry to butt in, but this statement really bugs me. How is a train of thought, a vision or a way of thinking an imprisonment of the mind? I understand that it is important to consider other opinions and ideas besides your own, but such a statement is not bound to such constraints. Are you suggesting everyone who has ideas and dreams, ways of viewing their world through experiences and up bringings are imprisoned? Would you be as so kind as to explain how we should go around accepting everything and thinking everything, with no filter so to speak?