Be a good puppet...Let's all buy into the us -vs- them paradigm. It'll be fun...

It's been amusing for the past several months to see the reversal of opinions of the sitting President by a rather noisy bunch. One group went from castigating Mr. Bush with every breath, to defending Mr. Obama with equal fervor. Yet another bunch 180 degrees the opposite.

Republican -vs- Democrat...check

Liberal -vs- Conservative...check

Christian -vs- non...check

Pro-choice -vs- Pro-life...check

...and any other brand of us -vs- them you care to think of...

Has it ever occured to any of you pro's and anti's that this is exactly what the "interests" want? Hmmmm?

Take a look at some of the political campaign donations from these "interests"...I think you'll discover, to no ones surprise, that many are playing both sides against our best interests. At least it shouldn't be a surprise. Though given the sheer stupidity of some of the rhetoric I've seen in the past few months and years, I have to wonder.

I'm not going to bother with linking these things...do your own research. That way you'll learn.

Us -vs- Them...Us -vs- Them... It's been used for just about forever, 'cause it works...until you start looking to see who really benefits.

The only us that matters is ALL OF US, NO ONE CAN BE EXCLUDED...NO ONE.

But if you all wanna continue to buy into this ultimately futile paradigm feel free. Puppets and dolls don't have to think. But that semihysterical laughter you hear in the background? That'll be me. It's either laugh, or cry.

Ultimately, it's your choice. To paraphrase a really good movie, "choose wisely"...

reply to post by seagull


Ideologies, political or otherwise, are self inflicted prisons of the mind.

For those who wish to manipulate, those who embrace said ideologies have done most of the work for them.

I have to agree.

The division and separation of different societal "sects" have been our biggest problem since humans first began living together in large groups.

The class divisions in this world are truly where all of our problems lie.

If only people began to understand that there are more of us than of them, we could take all of our nations back and create a positive and productive world.

Drawing imaginary lines in the sand is not the way forward.

'There is no greater slavery, than those who falsely believe they are free."

~Keeper

[edit on 9/7/2009 by tothetenthpower]

reply to post by seagull


An astute observation, or cowering in the face of battle. Not sure which one yet.

I agree with you, really. I have been caught up in this myself too many times to count....today.

So, Seagull, what do we do? How do we turn the impending apocalypse into an awakening and evolution instead of a bloody extermination?

I heard a few years back, 'Its not who is 'right' but who is LEFT,' also, 'It's better to be happy than right.'

We KNOW fighting. We have great examples and genetics for that. What we don't know too well is embracing diversity, selfless acceptance of another and compassion for those that are 'different' than we are.

Where do we go, Seagull?

I spent all weekend watching stuff on Nostradamus, game theory, and mathematical prophesy. I was left with an overwhelming feeling that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is set in stone when it comes to the future of mankind and that in ALL prophecies, there is a place for CHOICE. The choice to improve oneself, and thereby all of humanity, or the choice to sit idly by, waiting for someone ELSE to improve it, watching as it all slips away.

What would be your suggestion for us, Seagull? What path do we walk to learn more about being a PART of humanity, rather than a spectator at it's potentially painful conclusion?

How do we embrace those that would kill us? Because you KNOW when someone is different, ultimately what they WANT is to have the whole cake to themselves. At least that's what we've been taught.

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Ideologies, political or otherwise, are self inflicted prisons of the mind.

Only if, and it is a big "if", you let it blind you to other, perhaps equally valid ideologies...

All too many of us have too much of our personal outlook invested in our ideology, and an attack on the ideology becomes an attack on us... This is something that many of us need to realize and try to move away from...it won't be easy, truely worthwhile endevours almost never are.

Originally posted by seagull
It's been amusing for the past several months to see the reversal of opinions of the sitting President by a rather noisy bunch. One group went from castigating Mr. Bush with every breath, to defending Mr. Obama with equal fervor. Yet another bunch 180 degrees the opposite.

Republican -vs- Democrat...check

Liberal -vs- Conservative...check

Christian -vs- non...check

Pro-choice -vs- Pro-life...check

...and any other brand of us -vs- them you care to think of...

Has it ever occured to any of you pro's and anti's that this is exactly what the "interests" want? Hmmmm?

Take a look at some of the political campaign donations from these "interests"...I think you'll discover, to no ones surprise, that many are playing both sides against our best interests. At least it shouldn't be a surprise. Though given the sheer stupidity of some of the rhetoric I've seen in the past few months and years, I have to wonder.

I'm not going to bother with linking these things...do your own research. That way you'll learn.

Us -vs- Them...Us -vs- Them... It's been used for just about forever, 'cause it works...until you start looking to see who really benefits.

The only us that matters is ALL OF US, NO ONE CAN BE EXCLUDED...NO ONE.

But if you all wanna continue to buy into this ultimately futile paradigm feel free. Puppets and dolls don't have to think. But that semihysterical laughter you hear in the background? That'll be me. It's either laugh, or cry.

Ultimately, it's your choice. To paraphrase a really good movie, "choose wisely"...

There is nothing you can do to keep the us-versus-them mentality going away because that is simply impossible.
Let's look at the religious and non-religious issue. Let's say for the sake of argument that both sides decide to stop debating and arguing with each other. At some point one of the two groups will try to implement it's ideas to ALL society. This happens all the time, humans try to shape the world around their beliefs. We could possibly revert back to the times of the holy roman empire, or we could become a society that oppresses religious beliefs like Stalin's regime.

The pro-life versus pro-choice is another argument that people will never agree on. both sides try to shape the world around their ideologies. If the debates and arguments are stopped, then at some point one side will overwhelm the other and try to implant it's ideology as law.

Basically what I'm saying is that the us-versus-them mentality is a natural process that causes a balance on our ideas. We could accept other ideas, but that does not mean that one side will stop trying to implement its ideas as the absolute truth.

However, the democrats versus republicans arguments and conservatives versus liberals arguments ARE useless, for both of them are really just one party with two different faces...

reply to post by KSPigpen

Where do we go, Seagull?

Good question. I hope someone has an answer for you, 'cause I don't. I make no great claims to omniscience.

The first step, and that's all it is, a first step; is to step away from the devisive rhetoric. Two groups of people of goodwill can surely get together to reach a, if not totally satisfactory, mutually agreeable comprimise? If not, we're doomed...as in dead...as in it might have been better if we'd not existed at all... Because at this point in our developement we are fully capable of destroying ourselves and everything around us.

Where do we go...? We take one step at a time...all of us, together.

That sounds hopelessly trite...I know. Doesn't make me wrong.

reply to post by seagull


Couldn't agree more ...

Though have you tried telling folks that they are not their thought?

The self identification with the mind (I am who I think I am/I am my thoughts) is a defining property of our species within this evolutionary stage. Therefore once the ego attaches itself to an ideology, any affront to the idea becomes a personal affront to the ego and everything becomes personal.

This is very well understood by the string pullers. It is precisely through this that they are able to keep folks not only distracted and divided, but basically at ideological wars with each other ... yet the soldiers in this war are fighting the wrong enemy, with the wrong weapons, on the wrong battlefield, playing political whac-a-mole with each other.

However, as I have said on numerous occasions, there is a way out. And it's not to simply state "I'm not picking a side" as that too is a side. The only way is for humans to evolve past the mind identified ego paradigm, because until that happens it's a never ending cynical game of ideological musical chairs.

reply to post by newworld


I know that. It doesn't make the observation any less true, does it? Mankind is a predator...for better or for worse, it's what we do. Does that mean we can't grow beyond our genetics?

It won't happen today, or tommorrow...or even in a thousand tommorrows. But every journey begins with that idea of what lies beyond? Beyond the horizon. Beyond the stifling ideology based society we're all trapped in at the moment.

One step and a journey can commense.

Note to self: It seems to be my day for triteness...

..Just ask yourself this question...

If i had an enemy..what would Favours him the most??..Me Alone or Me with a million of my fellow mankind??

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Though have you tried telling folks that they are not their thought?

Not in those exact words, no... But yeah... The reaction was just about as you might expect.

I'm not apolitical, I swing to the conservative side of the fence...this I freely admit. However, I try not to blind myself to the idea that others might have equally valid, perhaps more so even...(as unlikely as that might be...:lol

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by newworld

 

I know that. It doesn't make the observation any less true, does it? Mankind is a predator...for better or for worse, it's what we do. Does that mean we can't grow beyond our genetics?

It won't happen today, or tommorrow...or even in a thousand tommorrows. But every journey begins with that idea of what lies beyond? Beyond the horizon. Beyond the stifling ideology based society we're all trapped in at the moment.

One step and a journey can commense.

Note to self: It seems to be my day for triteness...

Remember, humanity is a warrior race, we can't seem to agree on anything. However that is the beauty of it. If we all agreed on everything, if we all had the same ideas, ideology, religion/non-religion, etc. we would become a hegemonic society. There would not be diversity from one human being to the next. It would be the perfect definition of communism.

However that is not going to happen. humans will always disagree on everything, and that is because we are all individuals with different points of view, beliefs, and opinions. Although a world in which we would all think the same way and agree on everything would be more peaceful, the current way human society works- debating, clashing of ideas, differences on how we view the world- is the most ideal way for our society to keep existing.

without the chaos we currently live in there would not be diversity. I wouldn't have it any other way.

reply to post by Next_Heap_With


That's the point of this excersize...

We are stronger than the sum of our parts. "They" (whoever "they" are...)know this, and fear it beyond anything else.

reply to post by seagull

You forgot to mention right vs wrong.

If you want a solution (and remember, it's just me, not some Nobel-guy) avoid "sides" so much and look at the content of all sides. Pick a team. But make sure that it's the right team for you. What is right? (vs wrong?)

What ever you want in your life.

There are those that think it is right to want to socialize this country. Is that "morally" right? Would that be something that the majority would want?
I think not, therefore, it would be on the side of wrong. We have to look beyond what is politically expedient and look at what is morally right.

At least, that's the side I'm choosing.

reply to post by mikerussellus


Right versus wrong...

That begs the question of how do we judge what's right, or wrong...? My dad asked me that question once.

The only answer I've ever come up with is something like this: We judge right and wrong with our own experiances, and learning from the important people in our lives: Parents mostly, but freinds, teachers, as well...

Generally, it's been my experiance that morals are, in generalities, mostly the same everywhere... But we can only judge the morality of a given event through the light of our own lives. Political expediancy should play precious little role...

reply to post by seagull

The first step, and that's all it is, a first step; is to step away from the devisive rhetoric. Two groups of people of goodwill can surely get together to reach a, if not totally satisfactory, mutually agreeable compromise?

The second thing is to identify the actual enemy who has us playing the Us vs Them game see (Central bankers and their Corporate allies ATS

The third thing is to get out there and educate. I have stamped on the back of my business card a few web sites for people to look at. People on both the left and right have to realize this country has been bankrupted by the Fed and when the World Bank/IMF takes over social programs will go down the tubes.

The Department of Homeland Security says 80% of our ports are operated by Foreigners and they are buying and running US bridges, toll roads and water authorities www.alabamaeagle.org...

Statistics showed in 1990,before WTO was ratified, Foreign ownership of U.S. assets amounted to 33% of U.S. GDP. By 2002 this had increased to over 70% of U.S. GDP. www.fame.org...

An analysis of the 2007 financial markets of 48 countries shows the world's finances are in the hands of a few mutual funds, banks, and corporations. This is the first report of global concentration of financial power ..www.insidescience.org...

The “harmonization”
of first world agriculture laws with WTO wishes resulted in a massive transfer of land ownership from private to corporate worldwide. But the greedy cartels running the World Trade Organization are not satisfied with part of the cake they want it ALL.

Up for grabs at the negotiating table is worldwide privatization and deregulation of public energy and water utilities, postal services, higher education and state alcohol distribution controls; a new right for foreign firms to obtain U.S. Small Business Administration loans; elimination of a list of specific U.S. state laws about land use, professional licensing and consumer protections, and extreme deregulation of private-sector service industries such as insurance, banking, mutual funds and securities. www.commondreams.org...

The United States have few assets left. I had a friend whose job was packing up American factories and shipping them over seas. We no longer have an industrial base, so we do not even have abandoned factories to fall back on. The only asset the bankers have not stolen is our farm land and the plans for that are in the works. If we have no industry, no mining and our farmland is owned by international Corporations what is left of United States, flipping hamburgers at McDonalds?

reply to post by seagull


Would you agree then, that there are or are not moral absolutes?

Then it would be simple. Not necessarily easy, but simple.

Nothing in the OP is news to me. I know and agree with most of the points made there. But it's still a bit difficult for me to respond to.

Seagull, it seems to me that based on the knowledge in the OP, you have chosen a position to take. A position that states that this presidency is the same as the last and that people who have political opinions and are involved in discussions about political issues, fit into one or the other groups that you’ve listed. Additionally, it seems to me that you advocate NOT fitting into these groups. Or at least not talking about it…

And I wonder… if having and expressing an opinion on a woman’s choice puts me into one of these strict groups and makes me a puppet in your eyes, what would you have us do? Give up all opinions? Stop discussing them?

Your A -vs- B illustration seems to assume that if someone is "A" then they can't be "B" and that these paradigm positions are hard and fast and never the twain shall meet. From my viewpoint, you are as guilty of dividing the people into these solid positions as the people themselves who are choosing these positions.

People have different opinions on things (like abortion). That doesn't make them stupid, ignorant or puppets. Neither does having the gall to have hope for the future by thinking that this new president may just make some changes for the better.

I am conservative AND liberal. I am pro-choice AND pro-life. I am pro-religion and anti-religion. It all depends on the specifics. I have very strong opinions about the details of these issues. You can’t honestly think that anyone who supports one position or another is a puppet or doll? I don’t know about you, but for me, it’s entirely possible to hold strong positions on abortion or gun control or the president without being a puppet. Being a Republican doesn’t make one a puppet. What makes one a puppet is a blind allegiance to an ideal or a person. And there are certainly some of those on this board, but your post seems to me to be speaking to the majority.

What am I misunderstanding here? What am I missing?

To be very frank, I'm tired of being told that unless I distrust all government and give up all hope, that I am a puppet. I’m tired of hearing that because I am not willing to judge a 7-month-old presidency as worthless, that means that I’m a sheeple. That I’m part of the problem. That unless I think of Obama as the same as Bush, I am a puppet.

Like I said, I agree that the divisiveness is NOT serving us. But why wouldn’t some people go from castigating Bush to defending Obama if they see a great deal of difference in the two? Your position is that there’s no difference. I strongly disagree. Of course we can point out the similarities. As I said in Ashley’s thread, I can show you similarities between Strom Thurmond and Martin Luther King. That does not mean that, given the opportunity, the outcome of their presidencies would be the same or that they have the same heart or intent… or that we should judge them as the same.

We can discuss these issues without the polarization and divisiveness. In fact, I believe that should be our goal. To learn, not to teach.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

The very complexity of the issues being discussed adds to the problem. Also, any solution that a group of normal citizens is able to analyze for possible outcomes has already been analyzed by the PTB (for lack of a better term), and contingencies planned.

So to those of you who have asked about a Next Step, I propose this:

Go down and cancel your party-oriented affiliation, if you have one, and register to vote as "Declined to State". Note this is not Independent. It is declining to state.

By doing this, you will free yourself from being a peg in a hole, a known quantity that the PTB predict and depend on.

You don't have to change your voting habits, or the kind of candidate you support. Just decline to say.

If a statistically significant number of people do this, it will result in changes to the political landscape in the US.

And I have no idea in what way. I don't think anybody does or could, and the endless punditry - if it were to take place - about the effect would be so much hot air and distraction.

But you want a change? Here is a simple, free, legal way to be part of creating it.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Go down and cancel your party-oriented affiliation, if you have one, and register to vote as "Declined to State".

I LOVE this suggestion! (I didn't marry him for JUST his looks. )

People talk about this situation all the time but rarely make any suggestions about what to do about it. If we have any hope of making any kind of a difference, they have to take a first step. And a second. And a third. It's easy to type in our complaints and argue about the state of the government, but it takes some guts to actually do something about it. If I hadn't always been registered as "Decline" I would do so now.