Absolute, Irrefutable Evidence of a Creator

OK,

How about everything just invented itself?

I don't think that is possible, but what do I know.

Maybe there was a big bang and everything was created?

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by InTrueFiction
I agree, don't get me wrong. I'm just stating that in the question of God vs evolution, aliens aren't really a viable third option because you again fall into a discussion where either these aliens are eternal higher beings (Gods) or beings also subjected to a development in the universe (evolution).

Thats true. We end up at the same road block when trying to answer where everything originated. The real source of creation for the universe, thats one hard nut to crack. Or, even universes, since science seems to think there are many different ones in parallell. Reality may be much stranger than we know today.

Science tells us Big Bang created everything, but what created Big Bang? Once again a circular argument that people somehow still accept. Of course its possible to know that Big Bang happened without knowing what caused it, Im not disputing that. But it somehow implies the reality is much more complicated than we think.


[edit on 5-9-2009 by Copernicus]

Yes.
Maybe it is just our addiction to linear thought that leaves us chasing our tails looking for an act of creation. Maybe there is no beginning and no end. Maybe existence is all that there is all that there was and all that there will ever be. As eternal as God and as dynamic and ever-changing as evolution.

*goes start a religion*

reply to post by InTrueFiction


Ive been thinking the same thing. We think in linear terms because thats what makes sense to us. Something comes either before or after something else. But what if, somehow, that is not true? It doesnt make any sense to us, but maybe thats a limitation in our design and not the universe itself.


[edit on 5-9-2009 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by brightlight
If you didn't feel compelled to continue watching, then you didn't feel compelled to watch, its your prerogative, no problem no offense taken.

Well, thanks. It's good to be able to discuss this with someone who doesn't just tell me that I don't "understand".

Originally posted by brightlight
In terms of the pyramids, its something I still need to think about in terms of why it was challenged in the doc. Something to reflect upon.

Oh, I think it's right to challenge them, I just don't think "God" is the answer, and I don't think the guy in the video does either.

Originally posted by brightlight
It's hard for a believer of a Creator, whom is faced with this reality which is a gift, a gift of knowledge in the nature of this Universe and world we live in, to understand what is considered to be hogwash when presented with such brilliant arguments

Well, the guy going on about the big bang. He seems to have purposely got his argument completely backwards, and is using it to prove his point, even though it's entirely nonsensical. The rest of it wasn't any better. I would have listened further had I not got the sense that these people were intentionally trying to deceive.

Originally posted by brightlight
One of the most fascinating cases for me (regarding irrefutable proof) are the thousands upon thousands of Near Death Experiences

Yes, interesting subject, but science shows that chemicals are released at that time, which will certainly give you hallucinations. Your suggestion could be the correct one, but It's not really proof of anything either way.

I don't believe we have all the answers, in fact I think it's arrogant to think that we do - but I've not seen anything that I can call "Proof".

What's wrong with the idea that we were created by aliens but we don't know where they came from? What kind of argument is it that we couldn't have been created by aliens because we wouldn't know what created them? I don't get this kind of reasoning at all. So we simply must accept evolution because we can't explain where our creators came from? Now I'm not knocking evolution, but that seems to be the common argument of evolutionists. Isn't it plausible that aliens created the first life and we evolved from there? Or isn't it possible they've always been here and made little improvements to their lifeform over time and that is what we perceive as evolution? Now I'm not saying this is what happened, but the idea always intrigued me.

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
What's wrong with the idea that we were created by aliens but we don't know where they came from? What kind of argument is it that we couldn't have been created by aliens because we wouldn't know what created them? I don't get this kind of reasoning at all. So we simply must accept evolution because we can't explain where our creators came from? Now I'm not knocking evolution, but that seems to be the common argument of evolutionists. Isn't it plausible that aliens created the first life and we evolved from there? Or isn't it possible they've always been here and made little improvements to their lifeform over time and that is what we perceive as evolution? Now I'm not saying this is what happened, but the idea always intrigued me.

Yes, Im arguing for the same thing really. We cant say what created us, or what created aliens, or what created the universe or what created God.

Since we are stuck with linear thinking, we cant figure out how something can just "be". It doesnt make any sense to us. But perhaps thats a limitation of our design and not the universe.

Its plausible we were created by aliens without knowing where they originated from, just as its plausible we were created by a God without knowing where he originated from. We simply dont know. Its still up to every human being to believe what he feels rings genuine to him.

Personally Im into the "humans created as alien hybrids" theory but it would be foolish to disregard everyone with a different opinion since I dont know this to be true. Besides, I like discussing it. Its a interesting subject. As long as religious people have good arguments and dont explain things with "you are not meant to understand", im all game. If I was not meant to understand, why was I given the ability to think for myself?



[edit on 5-9-2009 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
What's wrong with the idea that we were created by aliens but we don't know where they came from? What kind of argument is it that we couldn't have been created by aliens because we wouldn't know what created them? I don't get this kind of reasoning at all. So we simply must accept evolution because we can't explain where our creators came from?

I didn't say that. What I said was that a theory where aliens created us does not answer the debate of how life and the universe came to be. Because if you appoint aliens as eternal beings that "were always there" you're just giving "God" a new name and still talking about Creationism. And if you appoint aliens as just another living species that were there before us then you're just placing them in the evolution basket. Either way, aliens or not, the debate of Creationism vs Evolution continues regardless of whether you substitute the notion of a Creator God with one of Creator aliens, Creator Clouds or Creator rabbits with pointy teeth.

reply to post by InTrueFiction


Well, I'm not interested in debate. I'm interested in truth. If the truth is that we'll never know, I'd rather have that than be convinced of a falsehood. If someone "wins" this debate and there are still other possibilities that can't be ruled out, it would be a very unfortunate thing.

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
reply to post by InTrueFiction

 

Well, I'm not interested in debate. I'm interested in truth. If the truth is that we'll never know, I'd rather have that than be convinced of a falsehood. If someone "wins" this debate and there are still other possibilities that can't be ruled out, it would be a very unfortunate thing.

I think you didn't understand me well but I doubt I can explain my POV any better so lets just agree to disagree.

Cheers.

Originally posted by InTrueFiction
if you appoint aliens as eternal beings that "were always there" you're just giving "God" a new name and still talking about Creationism. And if you appoint aliens as just another living species that were there before us then you're just placing them in the evolution basket.

Indeed

Forget humans, animals, etc... just go out and pick a leaf from a plant, and look at it. I mean really, look at it. It's incredibly complex. This little thing grew from a seed. How is it possible that even this relatively simple lifeform just happened by accident? Some people hold the belief that no, it isn't possible for something so complex to happen by accident, and you can see why they might believe this.

But if it didn't, how DID it get here? Did something create it? Whatever created it MUST be far MORE complex than the thing it created, right?

Then how is it possible that THAT thing, whatever it may be, happened by accident? You cannot logically use the excuse that it's possible for one complex thing to have 'just happened', while at the same time saying that some less complex thing couldn't have, and using that to prove that the more complex thing exists.

Logically it makes more sense that everything that could possibly happen, does happen. A creator isn't required, and so none of this is proof of anything.

But note that it also doesn't prove that there isn't a creator.

With that said, I would like to join your religion

reply to post by InTrueFiction


Sorry, but I think I did understand you. You said the problem with my argument is the aliens would have to have either have always existed or have evolved. Your argument seems to revolve around either getting to the end of a debate or continuing discussions. You did in a previous post say aliens aren't a viable third option because it would hinder our discussions. So what is wrong with saying it's a possibility but until we find those elusive aliens and do scientific studies on their origins, we may never get to the bottom of it? Please tell me your only argument is not that the debate will never end. Because if indeed aliens did create us then the debate should never end until we come to that conclusion. I understand I am taking the difficult task of arguing for something in which there is virtually no evidence for and probably is a remote possibility. That is unfortunate for me, but even if it's a very small possibility, it shouldn't be thrown out of the argument until there's no possibility.

In any event, if you don't want to continue the discussion I will happily bow out.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]

reply to post by Copernicus


We have wars.

That is bad.

We have sins.

That is bad.

But someone created this world didn't they?


Or, if you believe in the big bang - who created everything else?

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Personally Im into the "humans created as alien hybrids" theory but it would be foolish to disregard everyone with a different opinion since I dont know this to be true. Besides, I like discussing it. Its a interesting subject. As long as religious people have good arguments and dont explain things with "you are not meant to understand", im all game. If I was not meant to understand, why was I given the ability to think for myself?

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Copernicus]

I totally understand and I totally despise that argument. "You are not meant to understand" is most likely just someone not being able to admit "I don't know." Indeed, something similar was said to me today and I almost made the same argument as you. Why was I given the ability to question the things God supposedly did if I'm not supposed to? But then I realized I also have the ability to rape and murder too and I don't think they're right so I didn't make that argument. Even though I had no other response for their fabricated argument, I just ended up biting my tongue. The argument was a little more warranted in your case though, but I could perceive the possibility of someone like God deliberately misleading people or withholding information because they weren't meant to understand. But if the argument comes from anyone other than God himself, I see it as a cop-out for "I don't know." (No belief in God implied, I'm agnostic.)

[edit on 5-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]

Reply to post by Republican08

LOL your thought out post has no right being here. You don't even exist to these people. Just let them continue their conversation about irrefutable proof. Just another bs thread name trying to get a reaction out of you. Surely you knew that you'd never be able to discuss this. Remember irrefutable proof? Normally means this person is sold on the idea. No amount of reason or logic will change their minds. Just let go now...You can't save those that don't want to be saved. LOL but I heard you rep. So maybe not a complete waste. Maybe that'll save some more poor souls from this bs. LOL peace unto all my brothers. Also a big thanks to the op for bringing this irrefutable proof to my attention. May the light be with you as you go forth and multiply.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
reply to post by InTrueFiction

 

Sorry, but I think I did understand you. You said the problem with my argument is the aliens would have to have either have always existed or have evolved. Your argument seems to revolve around either getting to the end of a debate or continuing discussions. You did in a previous post say aliens aren't a viable third option because it would hinder our discussions. So what is wrong with saying it's a possibility but until we find those elusive aliens and do scientific studies on their origins, we may never get to the bottom of it? Please tell me your only argument is not that the debate will never end. Because if indeed aliens did create us then the debate should never end until we come to that conclusion. I understand I am taking the difficult task of arguing for something in which there is virtually no evidence for and probably is a remote possibility. That is unfortunate for me, but even if it's a very small possibility, it shouldn't be thrown out of the argument until there's no possibility.

In any event, if you don't want to continue the discussion I will happily bow out.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]

My point is that whether you are talking about the creation of the universe and life by a God or by aliens you're still talking about a creator and therefore creationism.

So in the thread's discussion (this one and many others out there) that propose the possibility of creationism versus the more spontaneous system proposed by evolutionism, to bring in aliens as the creator is still a defence of creationism - of the universe and life having been created by a higher conscious entity.

That is why I think that appointing aliens as the creators of life instead of a God does not propose a viable third option to the concept of Creationism vs Evolution because either:

1- You're still talking about creationism you're just disputing the word "God" but just the word itself. Because in my opinion if you are talking about higher entities that are superior and eternal enough to not only surpass a hypothetical creation of existence but even be responsible for it you are talking about the very same thing that people throughout the ages have called God you're just using the word "aliens" instead.

2- You're not talking about aliens as a higher entity responsible for the creation of it all but about another race of living creatures that have achieved the power and knowledge to create life themselves - which does not discount evolution.

As for your questions of truth etc. who knows? It is a debate - a sharing of opinions regarding a very old question that is "Where did it all begin?" There are two general theories:

Creationism - 1. everything was created by a higher entity (call it God or aliens or whatever you wish)

Evolution - 2. it all just happened without anyone or anything being responsible for it or creating it.



And then there's my option which is that existence isn't a creation but a constant and so there is no beginning, no end, just eternal change. You can donate to my religion at... (j/k)

[edit on 5-9-2009 by InTrueFiction]

[edit on 5-9-2009 by InTrueFiction]

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Why was I given the ability to question the things God supposedly did if I'm not supposed to? But then I realized I also have the ability to rape and murder too and I don't think they're right so I didn't make that argument.

Yes, but you are also given the ability to know what is right and wrong, and as you say, you know those things aren't right. Questioning things doesn't hurt anybody, and it's a good thing. So question away

Reply to post by Republican08




Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Clickfoot

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Why was I given the ability to question the things God supposedly did if I'm not supposed to? But then I realized I also have the ability to rape and murder too and I don't think they're right so I didn't make that argument.

Yes, but you are also given the ability to know what is right and wrong, and as you say, you know those things aren't right. Questioning things doesn't hurt anybody, and it's a good thing. So question away

Yes, that sounds logical but I do not know if I know right from wrong. I think it's wrong to eat animals, but most people including God disagrees with me. Some people think abortion is wrong and some people think it's right. How much do I really know about what's right and wrong? I'm not afraid to say I do not know, I just have a feeling.

reply to post by InTrueFiction


If you're argument is that aliens are off-topic to this thread, I'll totally buy that.

reply to post by brightlight


Part of a quote of one of my fav quotes from Einstein.

"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity."

It amazes me that with all the intellectual power down here on this planet some people cannot yet figure it out. I'm not referring to the universe being infinite which is a no brainer but that nothing is actually behind the curtain running the system/pulling the strings.

Food for thought!

"At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play dice. "
Albert Einstein

Well I'm sure there are many board games being played but dice is definitely not being rolled!

Infinte creators behind infinite space and then of course there is a tiny Nano-sized Hyperthermophilic Archaeonthe called earth.

Well back to the ant hills/war games everyone, (gear up) here come the red ants, what a wonderful life!










[edit on 5-9-2009 by ET_MAN]