Absolute, Irrefutable Evidence of a Creator

reply to post by plipu


Indeed I did! And it would have been an EPIC FACE-PALM had it at all appeared that you read any of the statements and then still went on to say such... (I'm restraining myself here) foolish remarks 'less you are just completely oblivious to your own ignorance.

And I quote again, "...when theres nothing to be wrong or right about because there's no evidence."-plipu

[edit on 7-9-2009 by GenLo]

reply to post by brightlight


OK hypothetically, let's say there is this "creator", how did it get created?
Did it have parents? Where did they come from, who created them and so on and so forth.

Originally posted by GenLo

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

 

Your read my response? Really? I can hardly believe that when followed by the rest of your post.

Yes, I did read it. The better question is: did you read mine? I asked you for specifics and you hand me this:

Really though, the answer to your first question is: ITS BEYOND HUMAN COMPREHENSION! Yes that's right, beyond human comprehension! Why? Because man's idea of time cannot be observed at some sort of birthing point, what you're asking for is the impossible! Even if we get to the point where we see beyond when our universe began (to which scientists have been able to look back to less than a second after), THAT'S JUST OUR UNIVERSE!

Beyond human comprehension...THATS JUST OUR UNIVERSE...

How is that different than someone who believes in "intelligent design" (as opposed to anthropomorphic "the world was created 6,000 years ago" creationism)? They are saying that scientists cannot possibly disprove intelligent design because of the vastness of the concepts, nor can it not be attributed to G-D since our definitions of G-D are all different.

Then you give me this:

Listen you apparently others to believe that something came from a something called GOD, now lets say we just say # science and let your completely untestable, unobservable, unintelligent hypothesis fly in the global community mmmk.

That wasn't even a sentence and you are calling me unintelligent???

What about this?

Uh oh, speed bump, now we got god believers asking well where did GOD come from?

Note: Not me. I can barely define what I think G-D is let alone ask where IT came from.

Obviously since GOD created the universe something must have created god!? OMG ARE WE WORSHIPING THE WRONG SUPER-BEING!? But didn't we hear that he was the "Alpha and the Omega" the "Beginning and the End" but then that must mean god came from nothing if GOD was the BEGINNING!

That means a circle, meaning no beginning, nor end.

...MMMK!? Do you see why god is flawed yet?

Uh, no?

Can I make it any simpler?

Yes, yes, you can.

Can I quote you on this? Oh wait I already did.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

 

Okay, then if you are not saying that the universe came from "nothing" then what happened? Please, I am all ears. Explain it to me.

And then I proceeded to answer this question thoroughly since the others were just complete rubbish holding no merit what so ever.

Thoroughly? By whose definition. You proceeded to create a straw man and beat me with it as I have never once said I subscribed to the anthropomorphic version of G-D, calling it once or twice "the universe" or "the string".

Jesus as my personal guide? Yes, I've said that. That's all I've said.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

 

My issue, Sir, was not with people who politely state their opinion on the non-intelligent design origins of the universe, but with those who find it necessary to label and disparage those that disagree with them.

Oh so THIS was the main issue! THIS was the "exact question" that I missed! No wonder you think I am putting words in your mouth! Apparently I am using mind control because the quotes I used earlier were just something I implanted in your mind to type!

Again...what? Put down the bowl and rub those eyes.

Where is the question in that? It was a statement. I gave you a list of questions of which you addressed, but did not answer, one of them.

I asked you those questions because my point was that you can't answer them. I can't answer them. The scientist man in the white lab coat can't answer them. It is acceptable to leave them unanswered and appropriate to discount nothing.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by GenLo

 

As for your replies to my questions, once more you are attempting to label me as one who believes in an anthropomorphic deity in white robes creating the universe 6,000 years ago.

Yes, yes I am because when you make statements like:

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by randyvs

 

No worries. I just like to profess my faith. I am a happy little camper when it comes to that.I believe in G-D. Absolutely, and I have a hard science background to boot. Nothing else made sense to me. Be forewarned, there are posters who find me holier than thou. I will work on this.
[edit on 5-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

I do believe in G-D. I just don't believe IT is anthropomorphic (unless it chooses to be) and I don't think it wears long white robes and is a particular religion. I think G-D is bigger than that. Once more, you are putting thoughts in my head that do not exist and judging me by the statements of others that believe in G-D.

You say you subscribe to Buddhist philosophy, not the religion, correct? When I confused you with having a faith similar to that of Thich Nat Hanh's you corrected me. I am correcting you.

It makes it difficult for me to imagine you aren't unless you would like to further clarify your beliefs for me. When you say something like, "My suggestion was that there seems to be a sentience, an order that I do not happen to feel is "accidental" and then self-perpetuating." I can be a little bit more understanding.

My point this whole time is that G-D is something different to everyone. G-D could be the underlying math and order to the universe. It does not have to be Yahweh or Allah or Krishna. It can be anything and everything. It can also be any of those things.

Wasn't there supposed to be a truce in there somewhere....?

Originally posted by warrenb
reply to post by brightlight

 

OK hypothetically, let's say there is this "creator", how did it get created?
Did it have parents? Where did they come from, who created them and so on and so forth.

How did it get created, you ask? Did it have parents...where did they come from...who created them and so on...

All of these can be mimicked in:

What existed before the Big Bang? What before that? What was the nature of what was before that? And so on...

The problem is "time" and human perception. If something cannot be inexplained in terms relative to what we have known we cannot accept it, let alone take the first step to try and understand it.

What if G-D is the universe and what we see as randomness creating a chaotic order and underlying logic is just G-D being, well, G-D?

I think my point, if not anyone else's, is that the more science says "We know how it was done" and it turns out to be highly logical and explainable, the more I think, yep, G-D. In my opinion, and mine alone, it is too logical, perfect, and true to be entirely accidental to infinite power. Perfect accidents over and over? I just don't think so. Wait, there's logic? How is that random then? Which is it? Logical or accidental? If logical, why is it logical? Why is the whole universe built upon logic? If not by design...

Others can believe differently, though. I don't care who doesn't believe in G-D. Personal choice is a superfine thing. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just defending those that believe in G-D because their intelligence is always up for question and their beliefs open to childish snark and ridicule when no one is offering up anything that convinces me that they have all the answers. Some, yes, all... *shakes head*

If there is a loving god as described in religious text, how can this god pretend to be a loving god to fallible humans, without giving them some tangible evidence to base their beliefs in while condemning unbelievers to hell?

I just do not get that? Some people are never told of Jesus they just go to hell?

How bout the first peoples on earth before your religion was invented. What did he do with them?

You God if real as described in the Bible, created our brains, our doubts and our need to understand and prove things including him.

You mean to tell me God created US knowing full well that BILLIONS of us would surely go to hell?

This goes far beyond science this is just plain ole reality here.

Some ancient ancestors told some stories about a god then later more ancient ancestors wrote the stuff as best remembered about those stories then that stuff got transcribed by many fallible humans through history. Then it got edited, miss translated and outright forgery committed to it and now you base your life on its truth?

No one can deny there could be a creator because we just have not learned enough about existence yet to prove anything, but that is not proof that there is a god either.

I hope there is a God who loves me cause 60-90 years is not enough I want more. I want an after life but my hope does not make it so and neither does your faith, your preachers and parents faith.

So lets just settle on "Could be" rather than is or is not till we know for sure.

reply to post by Xeven


I will open a whole can of worms with this one, but...

You are living in Hell, my friend. When you die you go to "Heaven" or the "Universe". G-D is love. The Universe is logical. Sin and evil is illogical, therefore it is not with G-D. The next plane is much better, so don't worry.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by Xeven

 

I will open a whole can of worms with this one, but...

You are living in Hell, my friend. When you die you go to "Heaven" or the "Universe". G-D is love. The Universe is logical. Sin and evil is illogical, therefore it is not with G-D. The next plane is much better, so don't worry.

I "Hope" so. I have faith that belief in reality is truth. So if that next plane of existence requires me to have blind faith in a God, his son or a anceint prophet without some tangible evidence that I can grasp and understand without doubt, then I am domed by the God who created me the way I am before I was ever born.

I am currently trying to sooth my soul to the current reality that once I die its over, and how I can manage to enjoy and help others to enjoy what I have left to the fullest. If we could become at ease with the end we would not have to stretch our imaginations to the after life and just live.

Okay, then if you are not saying that the universe came from "nothing" then what happened? Please, I am all ears. Explain it to me.

Answered.

As you are a subject matter expert, here are my questions:

1) Why did the Big Bang Happen? Why is irrelevant, how is more important. If a comet struck a planet in out solar system there would be no why, only how. I don't know the science of how stars explode so I would insist you ask someone with the credentials of such things and ask them.
2) What existed before it? Well as you can see space isn't an empty place, several galaxies existing much older than our own. Frankly there was always something there, strings perhaps? Like I said its beyond human comprehension to have the thought that something exists simply because, there will never be an answer for 'everything', but that is no excuse to believe in some mighty being, however I don't see the problem of the thought of a higher consciousness being that of the Universe today.
3) What caused it? Refer to question 1.
4) What was the nature of what came before it? Refer to question 2.
5) How can we duplicate it? Reverse engineering of such a cataclysm? I don't think that would be possible for quite some time.

Now answered. See I can be more civil. However later questions 2 & 3 were based of of question 1 (a conundrum) and made them erroneous and so I will not change my answers to either.

How is that different than someone who believes in "intelligent design" (as opposed to anthropomorphic "the world was created 6,000 years ago" creationism)? They are saying that scientists cannot possibly disprove intelligent design because of the vastness of the concepts, nor can it not be attributed to G-D since our definitions of G-D are all different.

Okay lets make this simple, you tell me exactly what you believe your "G-D" to be (and why the hell you call it G-D). Agree with me that the bible is complete rubbish, the Earth is over 4 billion years old, and that evolution is an observable (even to this day its #ing observable) fact! Then maybe, I will explain how it is different, because if you don't won't to accept those basic facts, then its not worth my time to explain.

That wasn't even a sentence and you are calling me unintelligent???

There you go whining again. I referred to the hypothesis as unintelligent, now if that is your hypothesis that you take credit for then fine. Also "However if anyone does care enough to get to know me I would be most please. No, I don't talk like this in person, in fact my social mannerisms and speech are left lacking compared to how I type... or write though my grammar is often terrible."www.abovetopsecret.com...

That means a circle, meaning no beginning, nor end.

Ah! So you do deny the very words of god. There is no circle of Heaven-Earth-Afterlife-Earth-Afterlife, unless you want to believe in some sort of reincarnation, but even then it was spoken that our spirits were "separated" from god, not that god sits in his workshop making new souls every time a mother has inception.

Where is the question in that? It was a statement. I gave you a list of questions of which you addressed, but did not answer, one of them.

No, what you gave me was one quote and then 4 paragraphs of nothing but complaints followed by a suspiciously toned reference to my offer of a truce. That's what that was in reference to and if you didn't see the humor in it then that's to bad for you.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by GenLo]

[edit on 8-9-2009 by GenLo]

My point this whole time is that G-D is something different to everyone. G-D could be the underlying math and order to the universe. It does not have to be Yahweh or Allah or Krishna. It can be anything and everything. It can also be any of those things.

Wasn't there supposed to be a truce in there somewhere....?

Well after you go into further clarifications after answering my question, I may be inclined to be more polite as I could have made the mistake of comparing you to the author of this forum, especially since you chose to relate to the other god believers. Perhaps I have you all wrong. I for one believe in a higher consciousness but calling "god" has such ridiculous connotations attached to it, because the "higher conscious" is ourselves, it is our universe, that is why when I found Buddhism I found it so easy to subscribe to. The higher conscious isn't some magical being, it is something explainable by scientific study even if science has not been able to reach the apex of such studies and probably will not until the planet consciousness changes (which I am hoping will happen in 2012) and "enlightenment" occurs with profound understanding of what was previously "beyond human comprehension" ...if that makes sense.

Yes a truce, but like I said, "...since you will be so tempted to mount a rebuttal to my earlier statements..." and mine to yours, but perhaps the truce shall be rewritten?

as i said previously, many bad and evil things have been done in the name of god but not so of the devil. Nobody on here has attempted to answer any of my questions i posted a few pages back, come on god squad, lets hear your answers

reply to post by warrenb

let's say there is this "creator", how did it get created

k warren, why do ask questions that obviously no one has the
answer to. these are questions some smart alec little brat would ask.
i'm not trying to disrespect you ok? i like alot of your threads.
just to let you know that i for one get this picture. that i think is wrong.
ah! lets put it this way. i know you can do better. ok now i sound like
a 3rd grade teacher. you know!