Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque

Originally posted by Stylez
It is people like YOU keeping justice at bay.

People like me keep people who are paranoid from killing the rest of us. Someone played upon people's hate for George Bush's War on Iraq, and they are using it to manipulate those who are assessable.

Originally posted by NIcon
reply to post by Pathos

 

It may only take four people as you say, but it's funny in a historical kind of way why they would then in fact bother to send extraneous pieces around the globe looking for connections. Were they not aware that this possibly could expose their plot?

They obviously got caught. Didn't they.

Bush's War
www.pbs.org...

Someone was noticing.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos

Have they got caught? Was this conspiracy of four (or eight) been presented in a court of law and proven correct? In fact has any investigation come out that there was this conspiracy of four (or eight), no more, no less, that has proven this?

But anyway, back to the grotesqueness of the 911 conspiracy. It's been presented in the opening that "I do not understand how a person could blame a sitting US President for killing 2,000+ of his own citizens."

I skipped most of the pages of this thread but I did find that it's been noted by the creator of this thread that it's a possibility that the CIA may have killed it's own President. Grotesque level I suppose on this is 0.

It's also been noted by the same person that there was a conspiracy including the Vice President to start a war with Iraq. Since it's common knowledge that in wars you have casualties on both sides, one could assume that the people involved with this conspiracy realized that some of our "own citizens" would lose their lives. I suppose the grotesque level on this is 0, too.

I wonder if they estimated before hand how many American casualties there would be in their conspired Iraq war. I wonder if it satisfied their acceptable limit of loss to meet their ultimate goal? I suppose the grotesque level on this question would be a 0, too.

But if they did not take into consideration the American casualties before, during or after their conspiracy to start the war, it would just go to show their disregard for American casualties when it comes to meeting their ultimate goal. If this were in fact the case I don't see any problem with them disregarding 2000+ on 911 as long as it would meet their goal. I suppose the grotesque level on these statements would be a 0, too.

So what I'm getting from the authors' reasoning is that somewhere between 1 (JFK) and 2,000+ killings (911), with the Iraq War conspiracy somewhere in between, there is a line beyond which a conspiracy becomes grotesque. I wonder what that number would be?

Now I'm off to work.

reply to post by NIcon

No they didn't get legally caught; however, their actions did get noticed. That comes to another dimension. Should we be prosecutting VP Cheney? That is another debate entirely, and I will not allow that topic to enter this one.

------------------- Repeating this for others -------------------
9/11 was a real event that had taken place, wihch the government had no involvement with. No conspiracy.

Connecting Iraq to the events of 9/11 was the conspiracy.

Iraq was a justified war based upon our 90s dealings; however, the 9/11 reason to return to Iraq was a conspiracy. If Bush and company took their time, looked at the evidence, they could have successfully sold Iraq to the public. What ultimatly happened was that they lied. Instead of using the 1990s case for returning to Iraq, Cheney manipulated evidence to justify his war.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Pathos]

Originally posted by Pathos
Connecting Iraq to the events of 9/11 was the conspiracy.

Iraq was a justified war based upon our 90s dealings; however, the 9/11 reason to return to Iraq was a conspiracy. If Bush and company took their time, looked at the evidence, they could have successfully sold Iraq to the public. What ultimatly happened was that they lied. Instead of using the 1990s case for returning to Iraq, Cheney manipulated evidence to justify his war.

so funny. right after i just posted this on the previous page:

originally posted by me, lol
perps are easily identified by their evasiveness and outright denial of facts and evidence, but mostly their defence of the indefensible.

for example, "okay, they lied about the shootdown over shanksville, but that is understandable.", and, "yeah, they lied about the WMDs, but we liberated iraq from a bad dictator guy".

reply to post by Balone

Why did all the scrap metal from NY get moved and SHIPPED OUT OF COUNRTY so quickliy without an investigation? Why were there no bodies in DC and in PENN? Why are (I believe the number is) 12 of the supposed hijackers still alive? Why was one of the believed hijackers dead almost 2 years before the attack?

Good grief, havent we dealt with these lies enough? Seems like the evidence to show these questions are baloney is posted on ATS at least once a week and people still miss it?

The hijackers are dead.

All of the scrap metal was not shipped out of the country, nor was any of it shipped out before it was looked at. Quite a bit of the steel remains in a hanger at JFK.

Remains from almost every one of the passengers/crew/hijackers were recovered at both the Pentagon and Shanksville.

Is it your first day on ATS?

reply to post by SPreston


I remember when a spook called dubya and dead eye dick douchbags.
What's up now. Is he only defending the goment officials he has such esteem for. Or just trying to yack away others opinions with his same ole game. I guess he doesn't know who is behind 911. Or Northwood or USS Liberty or he would post some info on that also.
just sayin

reply to post by weedwhacker


The assumption is that Michael Chertoff is an Israeli citizen because of his mother. While everyone says he appears to be a dual citizen, no one really states it as a fact.

His father was clearly an American Jewish rabbi, as explained nicely at Wikipedia in the "Early Life" section.

It also mentions:

Chertoff was born in Elizabeth, New Jersey to Rabbi Gershon Baruch Chertoff (1915-1996), the former leader of the Congregation B'nai Israel in Elizabeth and Talmud scholar, and Livia Chertoff (née Eisen), El Al flight attendant. His paternal grandfather, Rabbi Paul Chertoff (who emigrated with his parents from czarist Russia, present day Belarus) was a noted Talmud scholar.[3]

Chertoff went to the Jewish Educational Center in Elizabeth as well as the Pingry School.

So we investigate his mother who appears to have an interesting background that could make Chertoff an Israeli. He clearly is a Jew, but that proves nothing.

Helas, the best source I could find is her obituary as presented in the New Jersey Star Ledger. However, the NJ Star Ledger's obituary list only goes back to 2001 now, so I had to go to another website to find the full obituary, namely Jewish Tribal Review. Her obituary states:

She was the first airline hostess for El Al Airlines and participated in Operation Magic Carpet, the famous airlift of Yemenite Jews to Israel.

Born in Poland, Mrs. Chertoff lived in Palestine and Elizabeth before moving to Florida several years ago.

So she was born in Poland (according to her obituary - the most reliable source), not Israel or Palestine, despite living in Palestine. She was however in one way or another involved with Operation Magic Carpet, as a flight attendant, an operation to free the Jews from the Yemenis.

Does anyone have any solid proof on Chertoff being Israeli, or his mother having Mossad connections?

Anyway, according to the former President of Italy, it was the US and Mossad who were involved with 9/11, as stated in numerous newspapers. The following is taken from PressTV:

Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga says global intelligence agencies assert the 9/11 attacks were run by the CIA and Mossad.

Although Osama bin Laden has confessed to launching the attacks, now all the European and American intelligence services are well aware that the attacks were planned by the CIA and the Zionists' Mossad, Cossiga told Corriere della Sera.

According to Al Jazeera:

Recently, a former president of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, said in an interview with the newspaper, Corriere della Sera (November 30, 2007), that “democratic elements in America and Europe, with the Italian center-left in the forefront, now know that the 9/11 attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and Mossad in order to blame the Arab countries, and to persuade the Western powers to undertake military action both in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

There are also similar articles in German, Italian (the original article) and French, but I don't want to take the time to translate.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by MightyAl]

Originally posted by billybob
so funny. right after i just posted this on the previous page:

originally posted by me, lol
perps are easily identified by their evasiveness and outright denial of facts and evidence, but mostly their defence of the indefensible.

for example, "okay, they lied about the shootdown over shanksville, but that is understandable.", and, "yeah, they lied about the WMDs, but we liberated iraq from a bad dictator guy".

So, what about this:
Bush's War
www.pbs.org...

Originally posted by MightyAl
According to Al Jazeera:

Recently, a former president of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, said in an interview with the newspaper, Corriere della Sera (November 30, 2007), that “democratic elements in America and Europe, with the Italian center-left in the forefront, now know that the 9/11 attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and Mossad in order to blame the Arab countries, and to persuade the Western powers to undertake military action both in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

Wait. Wait. We have to stop your source right there. You just used Al Jazeera as a credible source for information. You might as well have asked Hitler if he was responsible for World War II.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos


Let me offer some examples as a reminder of how much the US gov cares about us and how open and honest they always are with us.

They lied about WMDs in Iraq and tried to make us all think Iraq was connected to 9/11 so they could start a war there for god knows what all reasons, not least of which being how much money so many companies are making off of it. The debt is not just money that has disappeared into any hole. It disappeared into companies like GE's and Lockheed Martin's pockets. How often are we reminded of this? How often do we look under THAT rug for conflicts of interest? Never. Because, the secret is, companies like GE also own huge portions of major media. Conflict of interest? No, it's military strategy. Look up "Project Mockingbird" if you have the guts. We are the aggressor nation in these wars, just like Nazi Germany being the aggressor but coming up with all kinds of anti-Commie propaganda to keep people stupid and scared enough to go along with it. Because it works.

They blew up the Gulf of Tonkin incident and lied about it to finally us get full-blown into Vietnam, which was about the stupidest and most pointless war in the last 100 years, all the reasons given for going being shown erroneous in the end ("domino theory," all that BS). More business for the military industry when otherwise none would be had, companies like GE again.

They lied about the USS Maine, saying a Spanish mine blew it up until the 1970's when the Navy FINALLY proved beyond a doubt that it was an internal explosion. Before ANY investigation was launched, the media giants here in the US were instantly accusing Spain of the sinking of that ship and promptly got us into the Spanish-American War because of it.

There is a very reasonable doubt that military commanders knew Pearl Harbor was coming before it did, since it's been admitted that Japanese messages discussing the attack were intercepted a year in advance and were estimated to have taken 6 months to decipher, FDR and the military wanted to enter WWII while most of the country did not, and the lucky coincidence that many aircraft carriers and other crucial equipment was sent away from Pearl Harbor on the day of the attacks for exercises, just like the wargame exercises that happened to coincidence with 9/11 and interfered with those events, and just like the London Bombings which also had exercises going on simultaneously that mocked the actual bombing.

There were DoD, FEMA, and other military affadavits and memos confirming the fact that additional, unexploded bombs were removed from inside the Murrah Federal Building after the Oklahoma City Bombing. There was huge controversy at one point over where the explosions came from the truck, or actually from inside the building, and how many there were, but there is no denying that additional bombs were inside the building that were later removed, that never detonated. Why? Where did they come from? Etc. Maybe they will be nice enough to let you know 50 years from now.

Let's see... Tuskegee experiments. They gave a bunch of African Americans syphilis just to see what it would do.

Similarly they gave a bunch of women in Virginia an experimental drug without their notification or consent which sterilized all the women.

The CIA used to go around the country giving people '___' as an experiment, just to see what it would do to people. In one case they abducted a Canadian woman and locked her in a room for several hours without telling her what they had given her. All this being the stuff they deemed appropriate to tell us about later, I've heard many other stories about what the CIA used to do to people with '___'. How is this stuff different than Nazi medical experiments? And btw in case you didn't know, we DID take a lot of Nazi scientists back to the US with us after WWII, including propaganda specialists and rocket scientists. Which are both obviously MILITARY assets. Are you seeing a common theme with our military here??? Hmmm.... Follow the money much?

And what else... Project Mockingbird. Look that one up. Diverting major media to make it conform to US foreign policy, for propaganda purposes, etc.


Why should US leadership, be it military leadership, intelligence, pharmaceuticals, any of it, why should it not be susceptible to the exact same human corruption that has followed us throughout history since as long as we have been recording it? Why in the HELL would you have such blind and comforting faith in your government, like a babe to a teat, when your own ancestry and DNA no doubt demonstrates what I am talking about? For example, I'm Irish/English/German. I take pride in my heritage, and the Irish have gone through one HELL of a history and are still suffering for freedom. Leaders, with so much power gone to their heads, are NOT compassionate. They are callous with always hearing about so many deaths, which, as Stalin himself said, become statistics, not tragedies. It wasn't much more than 50 years ago that Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini all very easily assumed power. Because people like you don't have the guts to be vigilant and stay in the face of authority to keep them in line. I want transparency. I want to KNOW all the information I am entitled to as a citizen for which MY government serves. It's not grotesque; it's freaking stupid NOT to be vigilant. This country was FOUNDED on these principles, and it is NOT unpatriotic to question your government at every single step it tries to take. Because power will very easily come to do just what power wants. You don't understand that. And so you don't really understand how Hitler or Mussolini came to power in the first place. But it happens. Do you really want to accept responsibility for allowing something like that to happen, over simply ASKING QUESTIONS until you get the answers you are looking for?

[edit on 9-9-2009 by bsbray11]

Pathos......Star and Flag for you (whatever that means - these ATS people say it all the time, I just wanted to see what it felt like).

I can't believe I missed 35 pages of this stuff...you would think I would have stepped into this pile of Bull some time ago.

I would have liked to have been there for you Pathos because I know what you have been going through and you have my sympathy.

You are never going to convince "them" "truthers" whatever they call themselves, that the US Gov, was not involved.

Good luck to you.

B-T-W I don't believe any of this conspiracy stuff either.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Let me offer some examples as a reminder of how much the US gov cares about us and how open and honest they always are with us.

While a thoughful and well-written treatise, I don't think it is valid to compare all those disparate examples, and somehow leap to the inevitable conclusion that 9/11 was "pre-planned" in its entirety. The connections, and details of what you cited, just don't connect.

Let's take just Tuskegee for example. I went to the Tuskegee University website, for what should be the most accurate info, would you agree??

You wrote:

Let's see... Tuskegee experiments. They gave a bunch of African Americans syphilis just to see what it would do.

Horrid, heinous, morally and ethically disgusting, yes. But, they subjects (victims) did NOT receive the syphilis from the US Health Dept.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

by Borgna Brunner

For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,” their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all.

The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”


Using Human Beings as Laboratory Animals
The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation. The sharecroppers' grossly disadvantaged lot in life made them easy to manipulate. Pleased at the prospect of free medical care —almost none of them had ever seen a doctor before— these unsophisticated and trusting men became the pawns in what James Jones, author of the excellent history on the subject, Bad Blood, identified as “the longest non-therapeutic experiment on human beings in medical history.”

The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites —the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis, whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain.

Although the PHS touted the study as one of great scientific merit, from the outset its actual benefits were hazy. It took almost forty years before someone involved in the study took a hard and honest look at the end results, reporting that “nothing learned will prevent, find, or cure a single case of infectious syphilis or bring us closer to our basic mission of controlling venereal disease in the United States.”

When the experiment was brought to the attention of the media in 1972, news anchor Harry Reasoner described it as an experiment that “used human beings as laboratory animals in a long and inefficient study of how long it takes syphilis to kill someone.”


A Heavy Price in the Name of Bad Science
By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis. How had these men been induced to endure a fatal disease in the name of science?

To persuade the community to support the experiment, one of the original doctors admitted it “was necessary to carry on this study under the guise of a demonstration and provide treatment.” At first, the men were prescribed the syphilis remedies of the day —bismuth, neoarsphenamine, and mercury— but in such small amounts that only 3 percent showed any improvement.

These token doses of medicine were good public relations and did not interfere with the true aims of the study. Eventually, all syphilis treatment was replaced with “pink medicine” —aspirin.

To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: “Last Chance for Special Free Treatment.” The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed.

As a doctor explained, “If the colored population becomes aware that accepting free hospital care means a post-mortem, every darky will leave Macon County...” Even the Surgeon General of the United States participated in enticing the men to remain in the experiment, sending them certificates of appreciation after 25 years in the study


Following Doctors' Orders
It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African Americans who collaborated with them? The experiment's name comes from the Tuskegee Institute, the black university founded by Booker T. Washington. Its affiliated hospital lent the PHS its medical facilities for the study, and other predominantly black institutions as well as local black doctors also participated. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years.

OK, I just selected this one because of the famed "Tuskegee Airmen", so the incident caught my eye.

BUT, it shows that one MUST be careful about exagerrating claims of this nature, and trying to make them fit this "Truther" theory.

This was in the news recently, here in the local area:

Similarly they gave a bunch of women in Virginia an experimental drug without their notification or consent which sterilized all the women.

If this is the same incident you're referring to, according to reports, in an article by an attorney who was involved in representing some of those women, the incident had to do with the sterilization of women that the LOCAL authorities (NOT US Gov't) in rural portions of Virginia deemed to be "feeble minded". Far cry from some nefarius US Gov't plot.



Similar investigation could see all sorts of other variables in the other incidents you cited, and they sure seem unrelated in the main.


AS TO a "false flag"?

Seems if the 9/11 attacks HAD been "pre-planned" they certainly wouldn't have been so stupid as to include Saudi nationals as hi-jackers!!!

I mean, if they wanted to pin it on Iraq, they would have used (or said it was) Saddam's Elite "Revolutionary Guard", or something. Certainly it's no secret Iraq had an Air Force, so the pilots' abilities would not have been questioned!!!

No...9/11 fell into their laps, whether because of incompetence, or willfull ignorance...THAT is the crime! It happened, and they took advantage to move up their timetable of the Iraqi invasion, which likely was the goal all along.

Doesn't it seem likely that the "anomalies" people think they detect come from that aspect??? I mean, IF you use a terrible event for ulterior purposes, wouldn't you want to cover that fact up??

Originally posted by Pathos

Originally posted by MightyAl
According to Al Jazeera:

Recently, a former president of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, said in an interview with the newspaper, Corriere della Sera (November 30, 2007), that “democratic elements in America and Europe, with the Italian center-left in the forefront, now know that the 9/11 attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and Mossad in order to blame the Arab countries, and to persuade the Western powers to undertake military action both in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

Wait. Wait. We have to stop your source right there. You just used Al Jazeera as a credible source for information. You might as well have asked Hitler if he was responsible for World War II.

Yeah, I expected that reply from you.

But, as I said, I didn't want to give you the original source, as it's in Italian, and I'm too lazy to translate. You can find it in the Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera

The following is the translation found on Wikipedia, also with enough sources to support the quotation:

“From sources near to Palazzo Chigi, the nevralgic center of italian intelligence, we know that the video is fake because Osama admits that he was the mind behind the attacks against the twin towers, while all the democratic parties in Europe and USA know very well that the attack was organised by CIA and Mossad, whit the help of sionistic world, just to accuse arab countries and induce occident to intervein both in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is why nobody in parlament gave solidarity to Berlusconi, which is the author of the fake video" "

Originally posted by Pathos
You go to bed in the comfort of your own homes. You think the world is safe when you walk out the door. Once you sit down at your desk, you still feel secure knowing your little bubble cannot be broken. What you do not realize is that its a harsh world out there. People are trying to kill our way of life. After you learn about some of the techniques we use to defend ourselves, you stop in shock and awe about what we do to protect your precess bubble. People begin to riot. Sure, some of the things we do are controversial, but they save and protect the rights that you take for granted.

What kind of techniques are you talking about? Also, who is "we"?

The United States will be immeasurably greater once all the criminals are thrown out of power and prosecuted.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Albastion]

There is no act of terror too grotesque or inconceivable to the human race.

I'd give examples things just as bad as a 9/11 government conspiracy, but I think this thread has enough pages as it is....

Even though I personally believe the original 9/11 story, (based upon what I saw and heard on that day), I think this is a subject where 'truth seekers' will never get answers. Since a good two-thirds of the population believe in the original story, I think many people want the events of 9/11 to reseed into history. When it comes to people having a difference in opinion, I can respect that people have different interpretations of reality.

Perhaps my original post was a bit harsh, or it may have hit the right tone for this conversation. You do not have to be a government loyalist in order to believe the initial story. Sometimes you have to place a little trust in those you elect. If we do not practice a certain level of trust, the world as we know it will enter into anarchy. Maybe that is what some of these truth seekers want, or maybe they want to achieve an unattainable level of closure.

After the events of 9/11 occurred, it left a significant mark on society. Since the war in Afghanistan has not been successful, those initial marks have changed into doubt. People are asking; where is the United States; where is our spirit for nationality; where do we go from here?

During our 300 years of history, the United States has seen the best and worse of times. Our nation was built upon certain moral principles, which allows up to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. We are not granted these rights freely, for we have to fight to maintain them. 9/11 is a reminder to all of us about our complacent way of life. If we let our guard down for a split second, we loose all of our rights and freedoms.

Within a hundred years from 9/11/01, people will be looking back to at the aftermath. Even though conspiracy theories were made, they will not define 9/11's place in history. Regardless about the efforts made by the Truth Seekers, their place in history will not be solidified.

What people will remember is that a terrorist attack occurred on 9/11, and it defined the changes put into place for several generations. Hopefully we will grow into a better society, so that some pockets of trust can be restored.

Thank you and good night.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by Pathos

BRINGGGGG wake up dreamer!!!
It is the sleepy cowards that take off work, dance on roof tops, collect the checks and send Americans to thier deaths for a lie, that will be remembered. Bare in mind 911 is just an experiment in life and death. Not the end all do all you dream about.

reply to post by Pathos


I don't agree with your reasoning and do not share your perspective. I have no argument with you either. I understand how our perspectives can be so diametrically opposed, but I believe that was the idea from start to finish, and the proof is right here isn't it?

Objectivity, obfuscation, and deliberate misdirection do not equate to a plausible conclusive, unanimous decsion regarding the events witnessed by the world on live TELEVISION. A televised traumatic event that changed the world with footage of death repeated again and again hundreds of times, until most of the population could no longer see the images without feeling the same anger, distrust, fear and helplessness as the first time.

And with that, my participation in this grotesque discussion has ended.