Basic Marksmanship (Proper Sight Alignment)

Once again, the survival board gets hijacked into the armed resistance board.

One of the earlier posts dissed scoped shooting. As a competitive shooter in both iron and scoped class shooting disciplines, the answer is pretty obvious by looking at shooting scores. Scoped class shooters average 50% more bullseye hits at the same ranges than iron sights shooters. Even with the rather wimpy 5.56 NATO round, you can extend your effective range by 100%(600m vs. 300m) with a 3x-6x scope with a minimum of training. With a lighted reticule or red/green dot sight, you can actually aim effectively at night and other low light conditions. Why do think that both Army and Marines have added electro-optical sights as part the M16/M4 weapons systems platforms?

Nothing replaces time behind the trigger, preferably the trigger you're going to shoot with but time behind any trigger is preferable to no time behind the trigger. Folks pressed for time or lack of range space should practice shooting skills with airguns. Hitting a 1/2" target at 25 yards with an airgun is the ballistic equivalent of hitting 1" target at 100 yards or farther. Snap shooting used to be done by the Army with Daisy Red Ryder bb guns without sights. I still practice that way occasionally.

reply to post by crgintx


I have to agree with you a scope is a wonderful tool and shouldn't be over looked

I only started with iron sights as I know there are a lot of first time gun owners buying... shall we say... the less fancy weapons... not that I'm complaining I recently got to shoot a Hi point .40 and for a less expensive gun was pretty darn good...

Personally the only problem I have with a scope is I wear bifocals and if I try to look threw the bottom part of my glasses it changes my point of impact... it was an easy fix just I just bought a standard none bifocal pair of glasses for shooting...

I'd also like to point out, now there we're on page seven of this thread I'm very impressed with the quality of tips and far reaching knowledge of the members here... Bravo and give yourselves a pat on the back you all deserve it! your help may someday save an innocent life and that is something to take pride in...

[edit on 4-9-2009 by DaddyBare]

reply to post by crgintx


*I* "dissed" scoped shooting.
This was a thread for teaching beginers how to shoot. As others have said, the first thing to do for someone who is fresh to learn about firing a weapon is to find a proper instructor.
I was giving tips that I learned in the military and became VERY effective with.
Personally, I don't need a scope. I don't want a scope and I will not HAVE a scope. I don't feel I need one as I am NOT a competitive shooter and do just fine with iron sights. Good enough for any purpose I may need. Savvy?

This wasn't a thread meant for competitive marksmanship, unless I am mistaken.

reply to post by crgintx

Even with the rather wimpy 5.56 NATO round, you can extend your effective range by 100%(600m vs. 300m) with a 3x-6x scope with a minimum of training. With a lighted reticule or red/green dot sight, you can actually aim effectively at night and other low light conditions. Why do think that both Army and Marines have added electro-optical sights as part the M16/M4 weapons systems platforms?

Also, considering the above, who are you to complain about this being turned into an "armed resistance" board.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by crgintx

 

*I* "dissed" scoped shooting.
This was a thread for teaching beginers how to shoot. As others have said, the first thing to do for someone who is fresh to learn about firing a weapon is to find a proper instructor.
I was giving tips that I learned in the military and became VERY effective with.
Personally, I don't need a scope. I don't want a scope and I will not HAVE a scope. I don't feel I need one as I am NOT a competitive shooter and do just fine with iron sights. Good enough for any purpose I may need. Savvy?

This wasn't a thread meant for competitive marksmanship, unless I am mistaken.

I shot my first .22 over 40 years ago, and yes it had basic iron sights, since then I have used just about every type of sight that can be put on a firearm, to that end should a beginners .22 be a single shot?

Just because I began with an iron sighted single shot does not mean that we should ignore the advancement of firearms over the years. The semi-auto is not likely the best place to start either but they outsell all of the other action types.

I think it's fair to assume that today's sales person is going to sell a basic scope with that first rifle. Perhaps we should also suggest that the most obvious choice for a .22 is a 4 x 40 from a reputable maker.

reply to post by prof-rabbit


I hunted throughout my life off an on with my father who had divorced my mother at a young age.
Lets just say I was lucky to see him at all, let alone go hunting with him.

The rifles I fired at deer had scopes. Whatever, I hit my target a few times and most times I was just proud to be out with my father... and exuberated when I made him happy by blasting a turkey with a Mossberg.

At the time I didn't give a damn whether the .308 I just killed that Doe with had a scope on it or not. I was just happy that I made a lethal shot.

It wasn't until I joined the military that I actually learned how to FIRE a weapon.
I learned with Iron Sights and I won't go back.

Yeah, I'm sure that scopes are great, but for the purpose of this thread, it is irrelevant.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by prof-rabbit

 

It wasn't until I joined the military that I actually learned how to FIRE a weapon.
I learned with Iron Sights and I won't go back.

Yeah, I'm sure that scopes are great, but for the purpose of this thread, it is irrelevant.

Today's military rifle comes with an optical sight and yes there is a difference between just hunting with dad and learning proficient use of a firearm.

This thread is about beginners, not the military, lets try to cover most of the basics.

when I take a new person shooting into the woods , there is a tiny joke .

if you have one old hand , and one new guy , your fine .

if you have two old hands , and one new guy , your better .

if you have two or two thousand old hands , and two new guys... the old hands are out numbered .

its all about safty and having fun , and its hard to have fun at a hospital .

you have to be a drill sargent with more than one new person.
and new shooters need to understand , it won't always be like this if there is more than one .

finding a good shooting partner is very hard , paper training is messy , and you have the old guy and the new guy relationship that never really changes .

going alone into the woods to target shoot is not a good idea .
going with the wrong person is never a good idea .

finding a good shootist to learn from is not easy , but if you find a shooting buddy , you will find a pattern the will cost a fortune , and you will have good fun .

the best advice , seek a person who is no more wreakless than your comfort zone , but still understands your sense of humor and can laugh .

shooting is something you do , you don't talk about it .
talking happens in the truck on your way there or on the way down the hill .

go to the court house and get the jury instructions for manslauter , and if you can , read the legal marandia .

Originally posted by readerone
when I take a new person shooting into the woods , there is a tiny joke .

I'm sorry I didn't see one.

Originally posted by readerone
go to the court house and get the jury instructions for manslauter , and if you can , read the legal marandia .

I would hope you were hunting, instead you appear worried about shooting another person.

Marine here. Not a sniper or an officer, just a basic 0311. Shot groupings at 500yards was as close at 300. On the range is where I performed best. I'd like to point out a few things for those new to handling weapons.

1. It is important for you to feel comfortable with a weapon. Not specifically YOUR weapon, but weapons in general. A gun was designed for a single purpose. Once you're comfortable with that fact you can move on.
2. There are many arguments as to the most important aspect of accurately firing a weapon. The first, is to select the right one. I prefer rifles. Never any good with pistols. To me a rifle is easier to care for, insanely more accurate, and easily understood. Some people are just better with handguns/scatter-guns than others. In either case, I find the single most important aspect of accurate firing is your stance. I'll pit a prone rifleman against anyone in a two or three point stance any day of the week and twice on Thursday. The stability of your body is very very important with either handgun or rifle. A two-point stance (offhand - simply standing and firing) can be improved by allowing your body to assume a position that will assist in recoil absorption and steadier aim. A three-point position (kneeling, both feet touching the ground and one knee) provides a more stable base. Less tracking of the weapon from bodily response and external elements. The prone position (laying down, legs spread, offhand leg in line with the 'firing line' of your rifle, elbows on the ground, both hands supporting the weapon).is the most stable as you are basically using your body as a tripod.
3. Breathing technique varies depending on your instructor. I find that slow, steady breathing is perfect.
4. Trigger pressure. Slow steady draw. To snap the trigger will force your body to pre-condition itself for a rapid pull. This means tensing shoulder and arm muscles so that right before you yank the trigger, your aim will waiver. If done correctly, the trigger break should surprise you. You can set your finger to autopilot and let it draw slowly while concentrating on the front-sight post.
5. After you learn the ins and outs of your weapon, you will have your trigger-break memorized. You will also have the positioning of the sights memorized. In an on-the-fly shot, you can begin squeezing the trigger well before your aim is solid.
6. No matter what you are firing with, taking a split-second to stabilize and insure your shot will matter. You see a guy spraying at you, odds are that split-second isn't going to matter. But the quality of the shots are infinitely better than the quantity.
7. The only way to get better is to practice. Airsoft and paintball will help you with reaction time and situational awareness, but they won't improve your aim. On the contrary, they MAY instill bad habits in you which will be hard to break. (Leading targets improperly, kentucky windage, improper sight usage, etc...). Still, if that is the only practice you can get, that's what you do.
8. KEEP YOUR WEAPON ZEROED. This is so important I can't begin to describe it. Every weapon used or new has small differences. Riflings, impurities, obstructions, DIRT. Each must be zeroed by the user on a regular basis. To zero a weapon, set everying to dead-center on alignment, elevation, etc. Go to a range. Fire. Set everything one click at a time. You must be in a controlled environment to ensure maximum accuracy. A shooting gallery or shooting range is ideal. Then you can use windage and elevation properly. Without a proper zero, you won't get much from changing situations.

For the Marines: What'd I miss, what do we need to expound on?

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Arrowmancer]

Originally posted by Arrowmancer
Marine here. Not a sniper or an officer, just a basic 0311.
8. KEEP YOUR WEAPON ZEROED. This is so important I can't begin to describe it. Every weapon used or new has small differences. Riflings, impurities, obstructions, DIRT. Each must be zeroed by the user on a regular basis. To zero a weapon, set everying to dead-center on alignment, elevation, etc. Go to a range. Fire. Set everything one click at a time. You must be in a controlled environment to ensure maximum accuracy. A shooting gallery or shooting range is ideal. Then you can use windage and elevation properly. Without a proper zero, you won't get much from changing situations.

For the Marines: What'd I miss, what do we need to expound on?

[edit on 7-9-2009 by Arrowmancer]

Do not zero your rifle in poor weather, calm conditions such as early morning or late evening are best.

Start close up, nothing is more frustrating than a target you cannot hit. For windage use a target at a greater distance, forget the elevation and concentrate on lining up the ground impact with the line to the target. Then shift to your ranged target for elevation.

A small error at 50 yards is a very large error at 400 yards.

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice and more Practice.

Shall we start another thread on maintenance, firing technique, zeroing, etc...?

reply to post by Arrowmancer


Absolutely! Unless your firearm could pass the Senior Drill Instructor's Inspection, you shouldn't be firing it.

There is a saying... no combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection.... but no inspection ready unit has ever passed combat.

I started one up tonight on firearm alternatives. Guess we'll start with zeroing and enhanced aiming tomorrow night.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Arrowmancer]

Originally posted by usmc0369

Also I don’t think people [realize] that it is a lot different looking down your sights and seeing a man there shooting back at you, then it is when your shooting at a target.

You said it mate

When I was in The Corps firearms were weapons.... Before and after they were and are tools.... I am still very proficient but really derive no pleasure from shooting for fun.... The only thing I have shot in the last 15 years has been wild hogs that actually will come up within 15 yards of my front porch.... What I have found to be most important when shooting is being able aim while totally relaxed after exhaling, take a partial breath taking up trigger slack, if there is any, and as you exhale fully and are on the target again squeeze the trigger.... If you do it right you will be surprised win the round fires.

Since I started this thread way back in Feb
I figured it was time to bump this thread...

Remember the big three:

Proper sight Alignment
Trigger squeeze
and breath control

Still waiting for more advice form other members I know every one has helpful hits for the New-Be's

4 basic markmenship principles. As per british military training.

1. the position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon

2. The weapon must point naturally at the target without any un-due physical effort

3. The sight allignment (i.e sight picture) must be correct.

4. The shot must be released and followed through without any disturbance to the position.

reply to post by DaddyBare


S & F

Why when reading this I felt like I had to stand at parade rest?


Breath
Relax
Aim
Sight
Squeeze




[edit on 6-11-2009 by SLAYER69]