Evidence NASA may be looking for Nibiru

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
If there was a brown dwarf in the solar system, wouldn't its mass affect the orbits of the planets? A brown dwarf, by definition is slightly larger than the planet Jupiter with a mass that is greater than 70 to 80 jupiters and would have an effect on other planetary bodies around it, as per the laws of gravity. For example of such, take the asteroid belt, its orbit is affected by the force of gravity from the sun that pulls on it, and the gravity of Jupiter that pulls it in the other way. Anything with that much mass would disrupt the gratational pull of both Jupiter and the Sun, moving it into another orbit, and depending on where the object was, it would start to nudge objects into a new orbits.

Just my thought.

Not only that, as a brown dwarf inside the solar system would be easily spottable. Any brown dwarf close enough to reach the solar system in the next 50 years would be easily spottable.

There is absolutely no reason to fear such thing in the next hundred years at least.

reply to post by DreamDeceiver


Ok, fair enough. I'd like to hear your perspective though on the questions I posed in this post.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

The recap of the history of WISE is to demonstrate that its mission has always been to perform the infrared deep space survey and that it began before the congressional mandate regarding NEOs.

If you are again referring to the graph 5b then I refer you to the graph 8 in the same document. Taken together those two graphs say that in a 2 or 5 year mission, WISE will detect NEOs down to 100 meters but WISE IS NOT CAPABLE of a 2 or 5 year mission because of the cryogen issue.

It does not take 2 years to find small NEOs. It takes 2 years to find a small percentage of the total number of NEOs. Graph 8 shows the percentage of the total population of NEOs which will be (or would be detected). WISE can and is expected to discover hundreds of 100 meter objects, even in its short lifetime. Those hundreds do represent a very small percentage of the very large total but you have to start somewhere. And who knows, one the ones it finds may actually be a threat.

I don't doubt that they are looking for brown dwarves. I never doubted it. They are looking for a lot of things. You have claimed that funds were diverted from the NEO survey to look for a brown dwarf. The "transfer" you are talking about does the opposite. It enhances the NEO detection capabilities of WISE, not the deep space capabilities. The enhancement was a software upgrade. Some smart person realized that it could be done. Maybe it will be useful on future missions as well.

NASA Headquarters has approved the development of an enhancement to the WISE science data processing pipeline called NEOWISE. The NEOWISE enhancements will allow scientists to discover new moving objects such as asteroids and comets with WISE and provide information for follow up observations within days of the WISE observations.

wise.ssl.berkeley.edu...

WISE was originally designed and constructed for a deep space survey. It was already on the books when the congressional mandate appeared. Surely you're not suggesting they should have scrapped the entire project, thrown away the funds spent, and begun a dedicated project? Are you also convinced that Hubble was a total waste of funds because it can't detect NEOs, because it wasn't designed to look for "threats"? Was Galileo wasting his time too?

[edit on 9/2/2009 by Phage]

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

WISE was originally designed and constructed for a deep space survey. It was already on the books when the congressional mandate appeared. Surely you're not suggesting they should have scrapped the entire project, thrown away the funds spent, and begun a dedicated project? Are you also convinced that Hubble was a total waste of funds because it can't detect NEOs, because it wasn't designed to look for "threats"? Was Galileo wasting his time too?

No, I am not suggesting Hubble was a waste of funds, what I have repeatedly tried to tell you is that the reason I find this so suspect is that THEY TOOK THE FUNDS FROM NEO AND TRANSFERRED THEM TO WISE. They did not take any money from NEO and transfer it to Hubble. See what I'm saying??

Lol, as far as scrapping projects, the government is notorious for doing this and has done this so many times I cannot count them all. There is a brand spanking new (or not so new anymore), $750 M facility in South Carolina that was totally constructed and successfully all the way through operational testing... and then the project was canceled. NEVER to be started up. However, it is used by the bees now as a giant honeycomb - but I digress again - and, no, I've never suggested that they should have scrapped WISE.

Again, since they felt it necessary to discover and track NEOs that have the potential to wipe the eastern seaboard off the face of the map, why would they then take money from that program and put it towards another program unless that other program showed a risk that was even more significant. The only thing in the mission of WISE that that could be is “uncovering the coldest stars, called brown dwarfs, perhaps even one closer to us than our closest known neighbor”.

I do think we're at an impasse as nothing new is being added now in our dialogue and we're just regurgitating the same old things. If you find something new, I'd love to discuss it with you, I really would. Find something that'll convince me. I've looked and will continue to look.

[edit on 2/9/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

You seem to ignore the "new" information. NEOWISE is an enhancement to WISE's ability to detect NEOs. It is not a diversion to the deep space survey.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by Phage]

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by DreamDeceiver

 

Ok, fair enough. I'd like to hear your perspective though on the questions I posed in this post.

can you summarize your questions on that post?

I don't doubt that one of the missions of WISE to look for brown dwarfs, perhaps some closer than 4 LY away...In fact, it is one of the stated mission goals to search for possible brown dwarfs.

However, Iamonlyhuman, you still haven't convinced me that NASA knows such a body exists and they are diverting money to WISE to search for it. I don't see any ulterior motives in the stated reasons for creating the NEOWISE program. There is no credible evidence to believe that NASA knows a brown dwarf is bearing down on us.

The lessons NASA learns from the one year that NEOWISE will operate could perhaps help in the creation of a dedicated infrared NEO hunter satellite that would have a longer life and greater discovery possibilities than WISE.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

You seem to ignore the "new" information. NEOWISE is an enhancement to WISE's ability to detect NEOs. It is not a diversion to the deep space survey.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by Phage]

Last time on this one, ok? WISE's original mission did NOT include the detection and tracking of NEOs.

Read carefully:

Near-Earth Object Surveys and Hazard Mitigation Strategies: Interim Report

NASA has funded an enhancement to the baseline WISE mission, called NEOWISE, to facilitate solar system science.

NASA has funded an enhancement to the baseline WISE mission. The enhancement was the addition - to the original mission - of the ability to detect and track NEOs.

From NASA:

WISE (Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer) will survey the entire sky in the mid-infrared with far greater sensitivity than any previous mission or program ever has. The WISE survey will consist of over a million images, from which hundreds of millions of astronomical objects will be catalogued, providing a vast storehouse of knowledge about the Solar System, the Milky Way, and the Universe.

The original mission DID NOT include detection and tracking capabilities.

nice article
I've read on several accounts that Nasa or the vatican built an observatory in Antartica to track nibiru.

Originally posted by DreamDeceiver

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by DreamDeceiver

 

Ok, fair enough. I'd like to hear your perspective though on the questions I posed in this post.

can you summarize your questions on that post?

Given the risks associated with 140 meter NEOs (detailed in that post),

1.) Since they felt it necessary to discover and track NEOs that have the potential to wipe the eastern seaboard off the face of the map (and I agree with them), why would they then take money from that program and put it towards another program unless that other program showed a risk that was even more significant. The only thing in the mission of WISE that that could be is “uncovering the coldest stars, called brown dwarfs, perhaps even one closer to us than our closest known neighbor”. Did you know that they had cut back tremendously on WISE in 2006 and were even considering canceling the project? What did they learn that made them not only reconsider but actually push the schedule up for it?

2.) Unlike what you see in movies, NASA estimates that after discovery of an asteroid on an impact course with Earth, it would take 10 years to do characterization (of the asteroid or comet) and mitigation strategy planning before they could actually implement the mitigation strategy. Don’t you think it’s very important, then, to discover these NEOs as soon as possible so you can track them and know if they are a concern?? Obviously, it's not as important as something else.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
I don't doubt that one of the missions of WISE to look for brown dwarfs, perhaps some closer than 4 LY away...In fact, it is one of the stated mission goals to search for possible brown dwarfs.

However, Iamonlyhuman, you still haven't convinced me that NASA knows such a body exists and they are diverting money to WISE to search for it. I don't see any ulterior motives in the stated reasons for creating the NEOWISE program. There is no credible evidence to believe that NASA knows a brown dwarf is bearing down on us.

The lessons NASA learns from the one year that NEOWISE will operate could perhaps help in the creation of a dedicated infrared NEO hunter satellite that would have a longer life and greater discovery possibilities than WISE.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

Ok. I guess I can't really say that they "know" something's out there but it certainly does appear that way.

Since they felt it necessary to discover and track NEOs that have the potential to wipe the eastern seaboard off the face of the map, why would they then take money from that program and put it towards another program unless that other program showed a risk that was even more significant? The only thing in the mission of WISE that that could be is “uncovering the coldest stars, called brown dwarfs, perhaps even one closer to us than our closest known neighbor”. Did you know that they had cut back tremendously on WISE in 2006 and were even considering canceling the project? What did they learn that made them not only reconsider but actually push the schedule up for it?

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
...1.) Since they felt it necessary to discover and track NEOs that have the potential to wipe the eastern seaboard off the face of the map (and I agree with them), why would they then take money from that program and put it towards another program unless that other program showed a risk that was even more significant....

Because by using infrared, NEOWISE can discover carbonaceous (C-type or "dark") asteroids that could not be discovered as easily -- or perhaps not detected at all -- by the traditional non-infrared methods that ware being used by the NEO program up to that point.

If the NEO detection program could divert some money to obtain the use of an existing tool that could seek out some low-reflectivity NEOs that may otherwise go undetected, then why not do it?

That would be like saying that the National Weather Service already has a program that uses ground-based and space-based weather observation for the study of hurricanes, so why do they bother diverting some of their budget towards the use of hurricane-hunting aircraft?

I think the NEO detection program could be accused of not doing its due diligence if it did NOT use an infrared space telescope as one of its tools.

I don't understand why you don't think using WISE to detect low-albedo asteroids is a good idea. I don't care if WISE only detected -- say, for example -- 50 "dark" asteroids. That's perhaps 50 more than the non-infrared NEO search methods could have detected.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
The original mission DID NOT include detection and tracking capabilities.

Now you're getting the idea. That's what I have been saying. That was the reason for pointing out that WISE was already in development when the mandate became law. You said that resources had been transferred from NEO to WISE so that it could look for a brown dwarf.

From the OP:

Why would they transfer the funding to WISE from the NEO program? Do they think that finding a brown dwarf even closer to us than our closest known neighbor is more important than finding the near earth objects (representing a very significant threat to life on earth)? Yes, they do.

That is not true. WISE was enhanced (NEOWISE) so that it could find and track NEOs. In effect, they added WISE to the NEO program. I'm pretty sure the cost of the upgrade was quite a bit less than the design and construction of a whole new craft, and this one is ready to launch very soon.

BTW, the possibility of finding asteroids has been part of the mission for a while.

Some of them might turn out to be of the Earth-crossing variety,
asteroids whose own orbits take them across the orbit of Earth. If one
happened to swing close to our planet, perhaps gravity would draw it to
Earth with catastrophic consequences. However, if WISE can detect the
asteroid, a defense might be possible.

2004

NEOWISE has made it possible to do a much better job of it.

[edit on 9/3/2009 by Phage]

Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
The original mission DID NOT include detection and tracking capabilities.

Now you're getting the idea. That's what I have been saying. That was the reason for pointing out that WISE was already in development when the mandate became law. You said that resources had been transferred from NEO to WISE so that it could look for a brown dwarf.

Amazing, just simply amazing. That is NOT what you have been saying and IS what I've been saying all along. Lol... :I'm sorry I really don't mean to be rude but I am really frustrated with our dialogue. We're obviously not communicating well.

Originally posted by Phage
You seem to ignore the "new" information. NEOWISE is an enhancement to WISE's ability to detect NEOs. It is not a diversion to the deep space survey.

Weren't you saying here that WISE had the ability to detect NEOs before NEOWISE here? If that's NOT what you were saying then we are in agreement.

Originally posted by Phage
From the OP:

Why would they transfer the funding to WISE from the NEO program? Do they think that finding a brown dwarf even closer to us than our closest known neighbor is more important than finding the near earth objects (representing a very significant threat to life on earth)? Yes, they do.

That is not true. WISE was enhanced (NEOWISE) so that it could find and track NEOs. In effect, they added WISE to the NEO program. I'm pretty sure the cost of the upgrade was quite a bit less than the design and construction of a whole new craft, and this one is ready to launch very soon.

Correct, that’s what they said. BUT, once more, WISE cannot find and track NEOs the of the size needed by the NEO program. If you again quote chart 5b, I’m gonna shoot you. just kidding of course but go back and read my response to that one last time.

Originally posted by Phage
BTW, the possibility of finding asteroids has been part of the mission for a while.

Some of them might turn out to be of the Earth-crossing variety, asteroids whose own orbits take them across the orbit of Earth. If one happened to swing close to our planet, perhaps gravity would draw it to Earth with catastrophic consequences. However, if WISE can detect the asteroid, a defense might be possible.

2004

NEOWISE has made it possible to do a much better job of it.

Now see that’s helpful from the standpoint that it makes me feel much better about the timing factor of the line item change control that would have had to occur in order for NASA to transfer the funds from NEO to WISE legally. However, the part about doing a much better job of it – you know we have different viewpoints on that. Much better for the larger NEOs (of which NASA already tracks 85% of them) no help on the 140 meter ones though.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
...However, the part about doing a much better job of it – you know we have different viewpoints on that. Much better for the larger NEOs (of which NASA already tracks 85% of them) no help on the 140 meter ones though...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the main reasons for using the IR capabilities of WISE is to detect very low-albedo C-type asteroids (including ones larger than 140 m) that would otherwise go undetected? Isn't that something the infrared NEOWISE could do much more efficiently than the NEO program could do without using infrared (or even more efficiently than ground-based infrared)?

Therefore, doesn't that validate the use of WISE in searching for NEOs?

[edit on 9/3/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
...However, the part about doing a much better job of it – you know we have different viewpoints on that. Much better for the larger NEOs (of which NASA already tracks 85% of them) no help on the 140 meter ones though...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the main reasons for using the IR capabilities of WISE is to detect very low-albedo C-type asteroids (including ones larger than 140 m) that would otherwise go undetected? Isn't that something the infrared NEOWISE could do much more efficiently than the NEO program could do without using infrared (or even more efficiently than ground-based infrared)?

Therefore, doesn't that validate the use of WISE in searching for NEOs?

[edit on 9/3/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

First off, you know my stance on WISE not being capable of detecting and tracking 140 meter NEOs. Second, identifying larger NEOs that would otherwise go undetected is definitely a good thing. But... according to the NASA story, the whole reason they partially funded WISE was to help the NEO program attain it's mandate of detecting and tracking 90% of the mandated NEOs. They've already attained greater than 85% of the larger ones, that leaves the smaller one which WISE cannot help with.

They must've known this, they are intelligent people, I believe the partially funded the WISE mission from NEO because they knew of (or thought there might be) a higher risk situation that WISE could uncover. NASA, just like any other branch of the federal government, is not immune to cover-ups, surely you must know this.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

That didn't really answer my question...

...NEOWISE can detect -- say, for example -- 500 meter or 1000 meter carbonaceous asteroids with a very low-albedo (low light reflectivity), right? And from what I understand, these "dark" asteroids of that size could otherwise go undetected without the use of WISE's infrared instruments. So, aren't the dark asteroids that the infrared WISE can find part of the mandate?

I don't see it as a question of "smaller or larger"...I see it as a question of "bright or dark".



[edit on 9/3/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

That didn't really answer my question...

...NEOWISE can detect -- say, for example -- 500 meter or 1000 meter carbonaceous asteroids with a very low-albedo (low light reflectivity), right? And from what I understand, these "dark" asteroids of that size could otherwise go undetected without the use of WISE's infrared instruments. So, aren't the dark asteroids that the infrared WISE can find part of the mandate?

I don't see it as a question of "smaller or larger"...I see it as a question of "bright or dark".

Yes, but the problem here is that the mandate and NASA's status toward that mandate IS based on size. AND, NASA has already completed more than 85% of the mandated NEOs of the size WISE can help with. The 85% status was a few months ago, I believe (not sure but definitely not current) so they're probably more like 87% now before WISE even gets off the ground. The mandate is 90%. See what I'm saying?

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
Yes, but the problem here is that the mandate and NASA's status toward that mandate IS based on size. AND, NASA has already completed more than 85% of the mandated NEOs of the size WISE can help with...
...The mandate is 90%. See what I'm saying?

If it's true that some asteroids are too dark (i.e. have low albedos) to be seen using the traditional non-infrared method, and can only be seen using infrared (such as WISE), then why does it seem so suspicious to you that they decided to use WISE as part of the NEO search?

It may be true that they could have reached the mandated 90% goal, but that 90% would NOT include objects with very low albedos, no matter how long they looked using the visible light spectrum. Such asteroids may only be detectable using a space-based infrared telescope such as WISE.

They could look as long and as hard as they want using the current visible-light telescopes they have and perhaps find 100% of the asteroids that are "bright" enough to be seen -- but they still may NEVER find some of the dark low-albedo asteroids using the current tools they are using. So why not use the one tool (WISE) that actually CAN find them?

Do you want them to simply ignore those low-albedo asteroids just because they can reach the 90% mandate without them?

[edit on 9/4/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

The mission will uncover the coldest stars, called brown dwarfs, perhaps even one closer to us than our closest known neighbor...

Wow that got my attention. As soon as you say Nibiru you're going to get hammered here, but I think Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka had some applicable advice when he said, "You should never never doubt what nobody is sure about."