The Astral Circus vs. Spiritual Realms

Originally posted by Travel_light
reply to post by Dragonfly79

 

I think there are different perspectives:

I'm sure there are many

From what I understand from your remarks (in a nutshell) you see this life or the human existence as preparation for the afterlife? This almost resonates to the religious paradigm where we only have one lifetime, and we need to make sure we get it right or we will end up in a place where we don't want to be - hell/fire etc.? (please correct me if I'm wrong)

I'm not a religious fanatic preaching hell and doom and I don't follow a particular dogma, it's too bad I come across like that. I see it more like a career, where do you want to go after this existence? What heaven would you choose? You can only choose a heaven if you've seen it first, or maybe you are one of the lucky ones that don't have to do anything and just appear in heaven. Some years ago I would not be able to imagine there are places of complete freedom and devoid of any violence. Being in this world made me accustomed to many forms of violence, some of them I didn't even recognize as violent.

I do fear for some people who are troubled in this life and likely be troubled in the afterlife. In this life you can get help easily but in the next it might not be so easy.

So if they want to explore it, it is really cool. Exploration of these realms, and this is what I understand from this thread, is not necessarily a "spiritual path". Maybe I could define a spiritual path as a journey to discover and remember who you really are outside of this human body and lifetime - that is Eternal Spirit - and starting to apply it to your human life. That provides meaning to my life. But it is different for everybody. My meaning isn't necessarily your meaning.

And a "spiritual path" may mean one thing to me and another to you.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Travel_light]

By exploring different realms I react to whatever is going on there and through these reactions I learn about myself. That is how I learn about myself or spirit, just as I would go into situations in this life which shape me, I learn.

I don't believe we're eternal, we have a beginning (created from a "source") and an ending, but it is an ending we choose ourselves (in other words, a spirit cannot be killed by any other) where we return to source and cease to be. It must be otherwise creation would not be perfect, how could it be perfect if a being wishes to cease existing but can't? We would be forced to exist, it would just not be perfect without having the choice.

Only One Puppeteer

On p. 5 Mr Green says, “The Source/God would never send a choice that was to be made through fear, the Source loves us unconditionally and if any choices we make end up in feelings of negativity, needings, cravings, unhappiness, loss of self , anger, hatred, jealousy, egotistic feelings of grandness (list goes on) then we have been led to that choice by an astral and not from the spiritual realms.”

That’s the kind of illogical reasoning Christian preachers follow: “God is love”, “God is good”, consequently nothing that makes us suffer can have been Its idea, none of it can be part of the Plan but rather a conspiracy brewed by evil powers. It’s just a bunch of renegades spoiling the fun.

I’ve heard the preachers on the religious TV channels saying, “How dare you say that God cast that cancer upon you!!!” “How dare you think that God wants you to be sick and poor!!!” The Devil is always behind such calamities.

Then they incur a contradiction when they say that God makes us go through a “breaking of the spirit”, in other words, a painful process that implies suffering, so that we will learn to be humble and obedient, yet this same God doesn’t want us to suffer, because It loves us. They can’t bring themselves to realize that suffering is part of the Plan, like everything else, not an invention of the Devil. Suffering makes us sensitive. They tell us that we will learn through suffering, yet God is not responsible for the suffering. God has nothing to do with it.

Either you believe your God is all-powerful or you believe It is fallible. Some philosophers in the West have suggested the latter: a God that creates the Universe and then stands aside and allows it to unfold according to certain laws, but where things can go horribly wrong, from the human point of view, so that we have to call for help when we’re in “dire straits” and wait for someone to hear us and come rushing at the last minute, like the Cavalry in the cowboy movies. If it works, was it because we shouted, so that if we hadn’t done so the script will have gone awry?

However, if you believe that the former is the case, and your God is omnipotent, then the conclusion is inescapable: that everything is supposed to be just as your God willed it. We’re all instruments of this infallible Fate. We’re all on the payroll, doing the work we’ve been hired to do, or actors and actresses in the Play, acting out whatever role was assigned to us, whether we’re demons or tithe-paying churchgoers, and we’re all equally important, because without one of the actors or actresses the Play would be incomplete.

Otherwise one would be imagining a situation as absurd as that of a character in a novel that takes on a life of its own and starts to do whatever it wishes, and not what the author had in mind.

It reminds me of the play by Luigi Pirandello, “Six Characters In Search of an Author”, in which six characters show up during the rehearsal of a play and insist on being allowed to have a life of their own and to tell their story.
***

More Than One Paradise

Also on p. 5 Dragonfly79 says, “Going there unprepared is like entering a nightmare I believe.”

...but only if you’ve been taught to expect one. In that case imagining how things could be on the other side is bad policy because you’re “ipso facto” creating your future surroundings and they will scare you to death (so to speak), so be careful about what you expect to see. Thought is literally creative there. That’s why, in their near-death experiences, Catholics visit Hell, Heaven and Purgatory, but Protestants NEVER find anything like the latter, because they’ve been taught that Purgatory doesn’t exist, that it’s not in the Bible.

I have a list of the passages that Catholics point out as proof that there HAS to be a Purgatory (and the reasoning is clever and convincing, but the question is, Who wrote those passages?), so, sure enough, when they’re involved in a traffic accident and they go into a “clinical death” (absence of vital signs: no breathing, heartbeat or brain waves), they run the risk of finding themselves in Purgatory for a terrible while.

Protestants are not that lucky because there’s no place in the middle for them, where hope is still present. No one can get out of Hell once he or she arrives. Hell is forever. You can’t say the same about diamonds, really, no matter what the De Beers Consolidated Mines tell you. Remember the words above the entrance to Dante’s Hell: “Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch’entrate.” Abandon all hope, you who go through this door.

These are not just opinions. I’ve spent hours listening to the religious channels, recording first-hand testimonies, straight from the horse’s mouth. It’s now down on paper...”hard copy” for all to see.

One of those preachers told about someone who for some reason had crossed over to the other side and had wished he were in a beautiful meadow, “rolling hills” and all, and all of a sudden he found himself in one such place. Then he saw some colorful flowers at a distance, and he wished he were holding a bouquet of those same flowers. You can imagine what happened next (instantly, no doubt).

So what should you do when you realize you died? Who knows. Just stand by and put aside all expectations, maybe? Cry out for help if it looks like you landed in a rough neighborhood? (I mean, the foul puddles of the lower astral plane, supposing it’s not just hearsay.)

What happened to a girl who died just one month before her fifteenth birthday, back in 1930, can be of some help. She would’ve been an aunt of mine, if she had gone on living. My grandmother was disconsolate and crying all day long. Someone suggested she seek out a medium. Nearly half a century later she showed me the message, and I have it with me now. It’s 10 pages written in pencil, in an elegant Palmer-style longhand, with no punctuation, and with the words linked to each other because the medium didn’t lift her hand when writing, except to go on to the next page.

In this message her daughter explains how it was: “(...) I’m better here than over there it’s true that at first when I crossed over to this plane I was ill at ease and disturbed a strong chill was all over me I saw you crying a lot I consoled you you didn’t hear me I didn’t know where I was all I could see was the house the plants and you and I didn’t know what to do in my confusion but then a gentleman came he took my hand he warmed me and he put some life into me I felt warmer I could see everything more clearly and I saw my body over there in that plane I saw you very discouraged very sad that gentleman who’s called Daniel and is an angel explained everything to me (...).”

It’s that simple if your father was a Theosophist and he never scared you with stories about Hell and boiling brimstone lakes. That’s why she uses the word “plane”, because it was the Theosophical Society, founded in 1875, that coined expressions that are now part of everyday language, like “astral plane”, “Ascended Masters” and “Akashic Records”. She says she’s better off because she’d spent two weeks in agony with a swollen throat, unable to eat or drink anything. This was probably diphtheria, or a strep throat at a time when there were no antibiotics.

I’ve also recorded a couple of sermons of the Rev. Jaerock Lee, a South Korean preacher and founder of the Manmin Church of Seoul. He claims that Jesus himself appeared before him. Maybe he’s right. On the other hand, let him prove it wasn’t a shape-shifting gecko from planet Nibiru. In many of his sermons he gives detailed descriptions of Heaven, visions of which he seems to have had. It’s a truly Nordic Heaven.

In the sermon titled “Fourth Level of Faith”, belonging to the “Measure of Faith” series, he says that in Heaven EVERYBODY HAS YELLOW HAIR. Women have it long and slightly wavy and it hangs down to the waist. What about facial features? Either one is left to guess about that or I have to keep listening until he gets to that part, in another sermon. Some of them are available on his website.

There’s no doubt that Rev. Lee will find a place just like the one he wants to find as soon as he dies, but that most North Koreans find a different place....

reply to post by Macrento

On p. 5 Mr Green says, “The Source/God would never send a choice that was to be made through fear, the Source loves us unconditionally and if any choices we make end up in feelings of negativity, needings, cravings, unhappiness, loss of self , anger, hatred, jealousy, egotistic feelings of grandness (list goes on) then we have been led to that choice by an astral and not from the spiritual realms.”

Yes I did say that I and stand by this totally. I am not in a position to go into great response to you as to why this is my truth (work/time) but I will reply to you later.

I see why some may not agree with this but in the context of this threads title for me it is my truth.

I would also like to say I do not class my self as religious, I used to be but now after experiences with astral/spiritual realms I am a spiritual person. Truths are still to be found in ancient religious texts but they have either been hidden or removed. For me all is from the One Source, I believe in the one Creator who I seek within and find religions for me just cause confusion and murk the clear simple waters of the truth.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I have had a number of physical and "astral" encounters with these black figures. Most of them when I was younger and some of the physical encounters included witnesses. Some encounters occurred when I was experimenting with Astral projection.

Researching those experiences lead me to information about what some people call "Shadow People" and that lead directly to ATS. I was shocked to learn these experiences are worldwide and occur throughout human history.

In RL I tell people not to research them but to stay away from them.
Of course, if you`re the curious sort you will keep on looking...
but dont forget that what you look at long enough, starts looking at you.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I have had a number of physical and "astral" encounters with these black figures. Most of them when I was younger and some of the physical encounters included witnesses. Some encounters occurred when I was experimenting with Astral projection.

Researching those experiences lead me to information about what some people call "Shadow People" and that lead directly to ATS. I was shocked to learn these experiences are worldwide and occur throughout human history.

In RL I tell people not to research them but to stay away from them.
Of course, if you`re the curious sort you will keep on looking...
but dont forget that what you look at long enough, starts looking at you.

There is a better way than staying well away from them.

Over all the years of my journeys in astral and beyond I found anything that appeared negative was actually helping me to be stronger.

I learned to recognize their Intent by how they feel to me, and once self-empowered I found a truth in something we hear so often that we take it for granted without understanding the depth of it.

That thing is Love... not the I love you, I love Candy type of love we think of, but real Unconditional Love as an energy. The energy of the One/Source/God/Universe/Spot/Martha (choose one).

I was in the beginning stage of showing a person how to easily meet their higher-self Guidance when one of the traditional black-attired, cloaked, wide brimmed hat type appeared in the person's experience and scared the hell out of him. So I entered his experience and saw what was frightening him so much. I then walked up to it and "scanned it for Light", as no matter how Dark they believe themselves to be there is always some light inside them.

Once I saw it I told the Being it was there, then placed my arms around him and felt Love for the Soul making negative choices... this caused a wave of Golden Light to come from my heart chakra and into his. I saw him start to sparkle on the inside and he raced away as if he was mortally wounded... he wasn't, only starting the healing he required.

A few years later he returned to attack my child, so I did the exact same thing again. And I saw the same process increase the light within him.. which seriuously weakened his resolve to choose Darkness.

Once I learned that process I used it for anything that didn't have my best interests at heart. I found that even if I felt my own fear I could still do it by finding the reason to Love them.. most times it was simply because they are a little lost in their personal choices or being used by another agenda. Each time I find the same result, that is the beginning of their Healing.

So do not run. Do not Fear. Love them instead and play the part you are meant to play as a powerful Being of Light.

Oh, and Fear is only a product of Thought. You can easily prove this to yourself by having a negative thought and then you will notice the feeling of fear rising up as a direct result. Therefore, master where you place your Attention and you master your Self.

Be well all.



[edit on 29-8-2009 by Tayesin]

reply to post by Macrento

On p. 5 Mr Green says, “The Source/God would never send a choice that was to be made through fear, the Source loves us unconditionally and if any choices we make end up in feelings of negativity, needings, cravings, unhappiness, loss of self , anger, hatred, jealousy, egotistic feelings of grandness (list goes on) then we have been led to that choice by an astral and not from the spiritual realms.”

The Source never guides us with Fear because the Source IS Unconditional Love. In the end this is all there is , this is ALL we are and ALL that we came from so the only thing the Source can be IS unconditional love.

As one who spent far too long blinded by the astral circus I started to question what it was exactly. If all this astral travel, psychic senses, interactions/mergers with astrals was so fantastic WHY was it making me so negative, depressed and fear driven?? Why after all this fantastical stuff did I still not feel my creator? Why did I still not feel the complete oneness I thought it would bring?

I did not feel it because it is not to be found there. I was looking outside myself and not within myself. I had given away the most important choice of my Souls wishes (to seek out the source, to remember my connection to it) to a bunch of clowns on an astral plane.

Why is we find it so hard to actually trust our own spirit? Why do we give its destiny away to astrals? Its just crazy.

I found the astral plane after a while a very needy place,a depressing place, a manipulating one and one that really NO answers were ever given. That place just goes round in circles, we end up more and more confused after ever trip/vision. It ends in constant analysis, over and over and no real answers seem to be given. Your mind goes into over drive in constant analysis...which is a sure way not to awaken.

After deciding it was no longer for me I did have initial difficulties. Id spent so long recieving "visions" and "psychic awarness" from astrals I didnt really know what I thought anymore. What was the truth, what was my truth? I suddenly found I had to think for myself and look within for answers. After discerning I finally found my inner guide. We all have this guide but its almost impossible to hear it when you interact with astrals.

My inner guide told me this..that the Source is Unconditional love. It created us from itself in order to experience itself. Duality was born.
The Source knew it was ALL there ever was, it knew it was complete and utter love, yet it wished to experience this. It is experiencing this through US, it is many souls, souls that make up the One.

The Source had to create what it was not also in order to actually experience what it is. (we can only see what we truely are in the presence of what we are not) So at the point of duality being created (big bang) the dark was created, but it was still created from the Source. At all times the dark still remains part of the One, but it is a creation of what the Source is not.

We are the light within the presence of the dark in order that we may experience and remember we are of the light. Total free will has been given to manifest what ever we wish in order we experience what we truely are. Throughout this experience (many lives/reincarnation) the Source is constantly with us, it never leaves us and is unconditional in its love. It forever guides us with love and never fear to always choose the way of the light. Everytime we choose the light the Source experiences itself through us. Never does it guide us with negatives, fear, cravings, wantings and power. It wishes to experience total love through us and would never use fear to achieve this. the Source of course understands fear and is aware of its frequency but has no frequency of this within it.

If we are guided by fear then it is from the astral realm.

The astral realm is OUR creation. Our thoughts have the power to manifest. Through fear over time we have actually brought this realm into being. Many find this hard to grasp but it is true, the whole of that realm is thought forms and immature entities attached to this world through thoughts.

I acknowledge it is there, there is no doubt it is there but never again will I choose its truth as my truth. The guidance it gives is mainly a joke and often dangerous.

Parents love their children unconditionally, and so it is with the Source, it loves unconditionally.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by Mr Green]

reply to post by Tayesin


Of course confronting ones fears makes on stronger. But dabbling in pointless games does not

I am endlessly grateful for this thread and its contributors. I dont feel like putting out a long boring post, I just want to say that it is good to see that one is not alone.

It is incredibly annoying being a "normal" person, experiencing the wonders of the astral realm..and then comes the clown music. Circus is a striking name for it....good thing i had free tickets! It had its purpose.

I was going to post a thread about what you call the astral realm, but I am too new on this forum for that yet....and I am not the one to post aimlessly to reach the 20 posts either

Originally posted by Scorpiotropic
I was going to post a thread about what you call the astral realm, but I am too new on this forum for that yet....and I am not the one to post aimlessly to reach the 20 posts either

Then please tell us of your experiences of it here. The more experiences shared the better we understand the astral realm.

Mr. Green, your very wonderful post above explains what is the truth to be followed. We also experience our own 'views' which gives the source also experience many different possible senarios at once. Very deep analysis and this thread is a great one! I have never tried astral projection myself nor do I want to, though I have read a lot about it. I can definately see that the upper realm (spiritual realm) can view the astral realm but not vice versa. We must remember to not think in our current view if we want to reflect of our true 'home'. It is greater than the universe itself!
Unconditional LOVE is the most powerful force ever, while it can be defined as perfect equality!
a signature from a different forum:
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

[edit on 29-8-2009 by constantine70]

reply to post by Mr Green


Ok Mr Green, here you go.

Just want to start off with saying I consider myself a skeptic who does not "buy" random ballony as the truth, neither from pagans nor from religious people. I prefer a scientific approach to the subject of the paranormal and things that only excist in some persons head does not have my interest at all.

I think nothing is worth saying unless its going to be honest. I will have to take the risk of putting up a picture of myself that isn't exactly very noble. There are many incidents, but will describe a few:

About 13 years ago I met a person that introduced me to the paranormal, and that turned out to be the start of years of "looking into" this matter. At this time we used a ouija board frequently and spoke to many "entities". I have written about this in another thread I think. This night we were alone again, last time we had more people but they got scared and didnt want to do it again. We got in touch with one moving the glass with quite some power. We were having fun, laughing, asking questions...we even sang the postman pat song for it. Then my friend (which I consider to be the medium) asked what would happen if we told anyone about what it had said. It said we would die. Prior to this I had asked the entity to bend the fuse in our candle, for physical evidence of its presence. Well, she reacted by getting scared, staring at me frantically. I looked up and firmly stated "NO...this is bull#" It seemed the entity didnt have any choice but to agree with me by "leaving the table" slowly. I got my friends attention and repeated what I said. I stated I will not let them take hold of me...that they have no control. We ended the nights session there.


Many years later...maybe 5-6 years ago, we were at her house. Both single now and got together after a long time (I had been gone for studies). She suggested we play around with making letters on notes and having the spirits speak to us through it, by picking random letters. It didnt work at all. We didnt have a board at the time. We decided to just sit down and join our energies together by holding hands and summon. So,what to do...well, we wanted to get laid. Could something help us with that? I am familiar with tarot and their meanings, so I couldnt think of a better idea than to call upon the devil himself

I dont think I have any abilities myself, but I joined in and concentrated. After a short while, I saw "moon&stars", you know...like being hit in the head. I opened my eyes and it felt like the air pressure around us changed. She said "There is a group of tall black shades here now...it is not of the good kind" I asked how they look like, and she said it was just pure black silhouettes. Well then! To work....we asked them to do business for us. Obviously, they went straigt to work. Around 4-5 in the morning her phone rang and I had to wake her up to take it. She grabbed it and it was one of her earlier flicks, he wanted her to come right away. She got up, half in sleep and went to him. As soon she was gone, my phone started ticking in alot of messages...it was from my ex and you can guess what he wanted. I fell asleep. I woke up by my friend coming in again and then we realized what was going on. Lots of things happened. I.e I went back to my students appartment and I got messages from one guy. He said he knew I didnt want him, but if I could at least please just "do him". I got angry, he apologized and said he didnt know why he acted like this. Long story short, "things" went on for a while.

There has been several incidents of things being turned on in the middle of the night and I had to get up several times to turn it off again. Playing around with us.

Whatever experience, I find it to be true not getting anything valuable out of it...but I share the feeling of emptiness, I missed it for long. Guess I still do

Mr. Green, thank you for taking the trouble to explain at length. The misunderstanding continues.

The fact that “the Source” has found it proper to include in Its Plan very many religions that instill fear shows that it’s false that “the Source never guides us with fear”. Many of us are treated by Fate in the same way that some parents treat their children: by threatening them with some horrible creature that will take them away if they don’t behave. They do so, not maliciously, but because they feel it’s for their own good and because they find the situation otherwise unmanageable. Evidently during certain stages in our development we must go through lessons involving fear. Otherwise it wouldn’t happen.

The difficulty lies in the idea that “unconditional love” is incompatible with “fear”. So where do you think our fearsome lessons come from? Loving parents also mete out painful lessons, because they know they will be of some use.

We receive influences from all levels of reality, both from The Circus, meaning the lower levels, and what they call the “spiritual planes”, according to the Law of Affinity (like attracts like). Ultimately it all comes from a single source. As the theologians say, “God is the First Cause but It acts through second causes.”

Another common misconception is believing that there is such a thing as “creation”. This is an ancient discussion. From a timeless perspective, all that exists has always existed. Maybe at our level the only proper word would be “manifestation”. Things that SEEM to be hidden or nonexistent suddenly appear to show up, but only if you’re trapped in time.

Besides, not all astronomers accept the Big Bang Theory, which is now the prevailing one. Fred Hoyle’s Steady State Universe is eternal. There are conflicting explanations for the redshift of lines on a spectrum, not just the one about the expansion of space.
***




[edit on 30-8-2009 by Macrento]

[edit on 30-8-2009 by Macrento]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Tayesin

 

Of course confronting ones fears makes on stronger. But dabbling in pointless games does not

Hi Sky,
What is the dabbling in pointless games?

When an energetic form attacks you or an innocent you are working with, how is it a Pointless Game?

When such a being is Intent on harming you through energetic assault (sp) so that you can feel it as a physical attack inside your energy centres, while seeing the attacker with non-physical vision... um.. is that a Game too?

Sky, we are active beings in every imaginable realm, from the lowly astral on into soul layers and on into oversoul layers, and further. Awareness does not dabble, it does what it does 100% whether we like it or not, and whether we understand our actions at all levels or not.

The moral of my story was that each of us have the most powerful tool at our disposal, one that not only protects in cases of assault at any layer of awareness.. including the Physical.. but also one that allows us a very direct and full connection with our source as an actively aware participant.

If that's all pointless game then I really must be nuts.

I am not sure it is appropriate asking such a big question in Skyfloatings thread, but what excists in the astral realm? What is the purpose of these beings actions towards us?

The Spiritual/Astral polarity reminds me of the christians heaven and hell

I saw another thread here about demons and that they dwell in the astral realm(s?) Personally I never thought in terms of good and evil, more like different intention and perhaps the lack of understanding of consequences. Are these creatures pure evil?

If its not relevant or wandering off, please ignore the post and I can take it some other time.

Originally posted by Tayesin
If that's all pointless game then I really must be nuts.

I dont think thats a pointless game. Im referring more to the Circus of esoteric fairs...that kind of stuff. Not to psychic attacks!

Originally posted by Scorpiotropic
Personally I never thought in terms of good and evil, more like different intention and perhaps the lack of understanding of consequences. Are these creatures pure evil?

2 cents: Some does not put his cigarette out properly. The barn catches fire and burns down. Its not that the cigarette holder is "pure evil". Nor is the fire "evil". The destruction caused is merely a result of lack-of-awareness.

Karmically speaking, if I harm someone, I can expect to be harmed at some date in this realm or another one. So there is a correspondence-effect in that "like attracts like". This can be understood without necessarily using words such as "good" vs. "evil".

The two main forces on this planet...those who want to divide everything into good and bad, and those who claim there is no good and bad....both have it wrong imo.

There are various astral-realms....some of them are pleasant, some of them contain a lot of suffering.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
But like a smoker who gives up and goes to the gym with the savings it certainly is a step onto the RIGHT path I feel so know it is OK for me to suggest it to anyone who would like to try it.

Oftentimes acts that are not known to be "spiritual" are more spiritual than many so-called spiritual practices.

I respect someone who quit smoking, which requires some real courage, more than someone who reads the palms of tourists and claims they were cleopatra in their past life.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I dont think thats a pointless game. Im referring more to the Circus of esoteric fairs...that kind of stuff. Not to psychic attacks!

Thanks.

Do you call it the circus too? That's a giggle, so do I, yet many are offended by that. I just enjoy a giggle when I can get one.

Oh and there's another one for me. How many Cleopatras are there now? Some friends and I think they must all be aspects of Cleopatra's split-personalities

Oops, off topic. Back to the advertised one then.......

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Tayesin]

I frequently wonder why so many people are so certain about who they are talking to, what they are doing and how things are related. I wonder why I dont have so many answers.

A friend told me he was invited to church by some christians once. It was the kind that gets euphoric and god speaks through them in their meetings. You know, those guys that get up and start blabbering about and spassing out. He went there and told me he was never ever going back, it was very scary. Every time one of them got up and started their thing, he could see a nasty black mass of a thing standing over them and clearly being connected to them. So religious people.....dont be so sure you are dealing with the power of the good Lord

So basically, what you mean Skyfloating is that there are much much more to it than my immature games ("forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing....")? Whatever use of the astral realms, it is certainly totally mindblowing to a skeptic. Not many things that can beat seing your concepts going down the drains...