Someone enlighten me, how does social-democracy = Nazism/Facism?

Because AFAIK, Nazi germany was not a Democracy with a few socialist policies...and the countries that have adopted a lot of socialist policies (Switzerland for example) are doing pretty well...

Or is this all manufactured (AKA another way of dividing to conquer)?

It's very simple. Someone who doesn't like socialism, equates them to something almost everyone hates. So if, say, they don't like people who wear bow ties, they compare bow-tie-wearers to Nazis.

Check out Godwin's Law. Personally, I think that whoever mentions Nazis, loses the argument (unless the discussion is about Nazis).

Nazism is National Socialism not Social-Democracy.

Here is a wikipedia page that talks about National Socialism:

en.wikipedia.org...

It is a mix of nationalism and socialism. Neither of which imply democracy as they felt that democracy, capitalism and communism all failed. Essentially it would be a form a socialism but only for a specific group of people, hence nationalism.

Also you need to realize that the political spectrum isn't just left or right. Here is a political diagram that shows all four extremes and also points out where Hitler is located on the spectrum along with other historical figures.

hoboboobies.files.wordpress.com...

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Canis Lupus]

because the smart talkie head news people say it is.

reply to post by chiron613


I totally agree with you. It is no different than calling someone who opposes current policy a racist. Intellectually dishonest and meant to inflame.

Fascism is state control of private enterprise, a legitimate description of what the administration has done with the auto, banking and insurance industrys.

Socialism is collectivism, something that those who collect mostly like and those responsible for filling the collection box.

While I think most folks agree that some form of collectivism is required to maintain social order. We do need a safety net for those unfortunate enough to be able to care for themselves. We need to have open spaces, such as libraries and parks. We need police, firemen and other things. I think one of the problems we have is that fascism often leads to totalitarianism and by definition, socialism is a prelude to communism.

One of the big issues today is that both are happening, at least at some level at the moment and that, rightly, deeply troubles folks.

As far as the social democracys, most notably in the Nordic countrys, they too are crumbling. Sweden has recently announced that they are moving away from the welfare state. It has become too expensive, is too great an incentive not to work and destroys the incentive to start and grow businesses and as a result keeps employment (and tax revenue) lower that they would like it to be. One of the primary reasons it is failing now is immigration (one of the reasons it did work for quite a while was an absence of immigration). These countrys have had large influx of immigrants, many of which with fundamentally different cultural mores and belief systems. That has begun to shred the social fabric and more natural Swedes are unwilling to pay extremely high taxes to support folks who have no desire to truly integrate into Swedish society. There is a deep history of racism within Swedish society (evidenced by a growing skinhead movement that goes back to a large underground support of the Nazis in WWII).

The thing that makes the US great is ironically one of the things that makes moving to a more collectivist society impossible. We have great cultural diversity, which when integration was a given led to a vibrant society. Increasingly, immigrants are not integrating and this, as it does in Sweden tears at the common culture and degrades the social fabric. This is especially true in the Hispanic subculture, where you find people, some naturalized citizens who have been here for quite a while yet don't speak English and seem uninterested in integrating with the larger US. The differences between regions of the country are stark. Think of SanFrancisco and Montana. Not a whole lot common in the culture and belief systems and in many cases, not a lot of respect between the two for the others.

One of the great things about how this country was foundedis that we are a Constitutional Republic. The closer to the people, the greater that government should control the environment in which people find themselves. It was meant for people to move from Montana to SanFrancisco if you did not like the cultural mores in Montana. It was not envisioned that the Federal Government would take activist steps to drive to common culture and way of life between the two, with very narrow exceptions. We are(or at least are supposed to) have a very limited role of the federal government in the US for a reason. Much of what is happening today is to many, unconstitutional (I'm among them).

It just does not seem that our leaders read the constitution. In the above example, Montana has a balanced budget. We all know what the situation is in California. Folks in Montana do not feel it is reasonable for them to fund the massive government and social programs California has put in place. They have every right to be upset, as do folks in other, primarily conservative states. People moved to those states for a reason.

Originally posted by El Davicho


Or is this all manufactured (AKA another way of dividing to conquer)?

It is well that you remember this aspect of the reality to which we are subjected.

At the end of the ideological road lies a very specific set of circumstances. All "movements" seek to achieve that set of circumstances.

Essentially, the way they deal with social interaction and personal freedom is but a means to an end.

At certain points we can agree with the ends, but not the means.

Then you have elite battling ideologues, conspiratorial robber barons, and eager enabling opportunists. Like Bull elephants they posture and trumpet righteously. But as the ancient Africans once said, "When the elephants fight, it is the ants that get trampled."

Just one perspective..., stay cool.

MM

reply to post by El Davicho

A common pitfall in understanding our environment is the confusion of labels with the actual object the label represents.

The skillful ( read : experienced ) observer will not be fooled by a mislabled object.

If fascism is the unholy union of corporations and the state, then it doesn't matter how that unholy union is labled -- it's still a fascist system ...

Originally posted by dolphinfan
It is no different than calling someone who opposes current policy a racist. Intellectually dishonest and meant to inflame.

...do you really believe that your statement below is not inflammatory?...

Increasingly, immigrants are not integrating and this, as it does in Sweden tears at the common culture and degrades the social fabric. This is especially true in the Hispanic subculture, where you find people, some naturalized citizens who have been here for quite a while yet don't speak English and seem uninterested in integrating with the larger US.

...i've been homes where english wasnt spoken even though the family had been americans for many generations... i've never heard anyone make a big deal about it if the family's roots were in france, germany, israel, italy, norway - never heard those ethnic groups called sub-cultures either - but - hardly a day passes when spanish speaking americans arent demonized for doing the exact same thing, same for arab americans and asian americans... sometimes a person is called a nazi or racist or white supremacist because they are...


[edit on 8/22/09 by Wyn Hawks]

reply to post by Wyn Hawks

...i've been homes where english wasnt spoken even though the family had been americans for many generations... i've never heard anyone make a big deal about it if the family's roots were in france, germany, israel, italy, norway - never heard those ethnic groups called sub-cultures either - but - hardly a day passes when spanish speaking americans arent demonized for doing the exact same thing, same for arab americans and asian americans... sometimes a person is called a nazi or racist or white supremacist because they are...

All of my grandparents were immigrants but they wanted to be Americans and made certain their children DID become Americans. None of the second generation would be mistake as anything but Americans. My father could not even speak in German to his aunt when we visited Germany and my Mom certainly could not speak Arabic.

Now there seems to be a movement to catagorize people by nationality, and for people to cling to their nationalities into the second and third generations. I think THAT is the problem. Again it is being used by those in power to divide and Conquer

reply to post by El Davicho


fascism = corporatism = neo con cheney/ bush regime

socialism = federalism = democratic policies that are meant to spread the wealth via government or make things more "fair". Sometimes it works to help people get on their feet; many other times it allows people to use and take advantage of such a system and become a leech.

Both suck...

fair market capitalism with minimal government input coupled with a conservative foreign policy seems to be the best answer in my opinion.

reply to post by El Davicho


I saw something funny on British Channel 4 news in one of the town hall meetings. A woman asked the Democratic senator why Obama has nazi plans or something similar accussing Obama of being a nazi..... and the senator's reply was (after a short while thinking wtf is she talking about!!) "What planet are you on lady?!!!..........it's like having a conversation with the kitchen dinner table!!!.......The crowd actually cheered!

.....This gave me the biggest laugh I've had for ages, as he told it as it was!!! Much better reactions.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by john124]

With all do respect, I think YOU are a Nazi and are worse than Hitler for posting this thread. Why?

You drink water, and Hitler drank water

You breath air, and Hitler breathed air

You eat food, and Hitler ate food

You probably wear clothes, and Hitler wore clothes.


The only difference is, Hitler stopped doing these things over 60 years ago, while you continue to do these things.

BTW Obama is like Hitler in that

They were both heads of state...

They both have the letter "H" as an initial...

Hitler's propaganda minister was named Joseph Goebels, while Obama once met Joe the Plumber...

During WWII, when Hitler was bombing Britain, many British people ate spam. Obama is from Hawaii where spam is very popular.

If you cannot see this similarities you are a complete tool and there is no point trying to carry on a civilized debate with you...you Nazi!

reply to post by El Davicho


Actually it doesn't this a very well manipulated rhetoric to keep people divided and miss informed on how in America The Republic is death and what we actually have is indeed a mix of Democracy and Socialism.

See in America is always been those at the top that benefit from democracy and free capitalism and always keep their wealth while the working class work for them.

Then you have the working class that is been force to provide for those less fortunates the poor and needy, that is socialism.

But hey don't tell that to the rest of the nation and the believers of Democracy because they will not believe you.

I'll leave this here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I believe that Fascism is alive and well in America. Remember that it was crushing debt and war that destroyed Germany and helped give rise to Hitler. Fascism sneaks up on societies like ours.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by El Davicho

 

Actually it doesn't this a very well manipulated rhetoric to keep people divided and miss informed on how in America The Republic is death and what we actually have is indeed a mix of Democracy and Socialism.

No, you are not a democracy and there is hardly any socialism in the United States. You are a republic.

Please watch: www.youtube.com...

Also since Im living in Sweden where about half the people are social democrats, I can guarantee they are not nazi. Most of the german nazi scientists actually got transferred to the United States after the second world war to invent rockets for you guys.


[edit on 22-8-2009 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


I don't think it is inflamatory in the slightest. Speaking the truth only e to enflames when those enflamed don't like the truth.

I also had friends who spoke a different language at home. I thought it was fantastic and a solid way to keep hold of a culture. They did, however speak English outside of the home.

It is a simple fact, both here and in other countrys that there are an increasing number of immigrants who do not wish to integrate into their new countrys. The issue with Shiria courts in England, the Berka issue in France, the issue now going on in Sweden where certain North African immigrants are refusing to send their daughters to school. It is happening all over the world. I did make an error in my post. I should not have used the word "SEEM". I should have simply used "DON'T".

If you think I'm wrong, how about you go down to LA and try to speak English in a convenience store and ask for a bit of help finding something. Or go to the Cuban neighborhood in Union, NJ and do the same thing. I have a friend who's Cuban. His mother 70 and has lived in the US for 50 years, yet she does not read nor speak English. Oh, I'm sure she can. The point is that she WON'T and that is not all that unusual in a number of ethnic communities.

To get a flavor about how things are different today than in the past, do a bit of reading up on the history of Lowell, MA. Lowell is considered the birthplace of the US industrial revolution. The entire city is a national historic site. The rivers that flow through Lowell powered huge looms. Immigrants from all over the world came through Ellis Island and went to Lowell to get work. On the job, they would not let folks of common background work together. Polish immigrants had to work with Italians, French with Greek, etc. They did that because they wanted English spoken in the workplace and also to assist the integrate into US society.

If you tried to do that today, you would find yourself in a lawsuit in about 5 minutes. Thats OK, because should the best attorney you can find only speak Tagalog, the government will pay for a government employee who's job it is to assist folks who only speak Tagalog take any manner of tests, like drivers exams in Tagalog.

I've always wondered how it is that someone who has to take a driver's exam in an foreign language is able to read the road signs. Crazy, but I've never been able to figure that one out.

Not sure how the topic got derailed but I can say this much in response to alot of the comments; which I believe has a lot to do with current divisions in the country...

It's true that the newest immigrants to the country wear their culture on their sleeve and they expect demand that everyone respect and acknowledge (and perhaps even show pride for) their heritage.

How many white Americans have walked through Oakland California suburbs where the overwhelming ethnicity is black? I have. On the 4th of July when all the people are out on the street and socializing and celebrating freedom. I won't say more on it because it's irrelivant to my point.

How many white Americans have been to their hispanic friends' parties in East Palo Alto where the standard of living is one step above poverty and EVERY house has at least one dismantled car in the front yard on blocks (where status is having 2 or 3) (that was many years ago, so things may have changed.)

How many white Americans have been to East Santa Clara county (East San Jose) where the Philipino (and well to do hispanic) neighborhoods are (were) booming with intelligent, sucessful, yet again, culturally entrenched residents expect demand others to recognise and admire their culture from far away. One of my Philipino friends' mothers' still lived in a grass hut with dirt floors and sent money to her.

I have a unique prospective from approximately 20 years ago. In the California Bay Area I had many friends from all walks of life. These are only brief descriptions. Describing them in detail could fill many chapters making up a novel of diversity.

I respect all of their heritages, ironically, a neutral white guy, I just accept them as they are, yet they rarely accept each other.

[color=gold]...

That's the underlying thing that I didn't realize then (and one major reason I fled California)... Allow me to take it one step further... Personalizing AND validating the entire point that many people are making in their posts:

You may need to read between the lines here, (KK), at that time I had long hair, tie dyed shirts, jeans with holes (I started that trend because I didn't care to buy new jeans, someone on the city bus saw my style and made a fortune from it, even to this day. FtR.)

The 'general population' wrote me off as rebelious and not productive even though I was working at age 16 prototyping computers and am very productive. So, either while shopping or just out in public, I saw the looks, try dressing like a bum sometime; notice the looks or snears, etc.

In addition, Unless you have great speech skills (which I disregarded)... and was more like, totally, ya know, with many F words and S words; Most people will, again, just write you off.

[color=gold]...

Here's the punch line, if you've read this far, what makes my young character, that I've described above, ANY different than those immigrants and their dress and behavior? Dis-establishment, rebellion and non-conforming was my personal culture that I demanded everyone respect and accept. What makes it any different, in principal, than those that wear their culture on their sleeve?

It wasn't until I cut my hair, wore new clothes, and had a shiney new car, that I got respect. I went completely with the establishment and got what everyone craves, immigrant or not... R E S P E C T. The changes in people's interaction with me were overwhelming. Although, I could mostly care less about what some peeps (and some posters here on ATS) think. This is a post for those that want a prospective different from what they may have experienced... My version of 'Soto-Latina' background. =)

Hopefully, this will help others understand that the 'great divide' in cultures and the lack of respect going on is because, unlike the immigrants of long ago... they aren't "cutting their hair, wearing new clothes and driving shiney new cars" en mass. Their entire neighborhood needs to conform to a much greater degree. Find a way to respect the other neighborhoods that attempt to meld into the American persona... Shun the extremists that demand we respect their culture as higher than anyone else's culture.

Else, there will always be a culture war with each faction demanding the respect and never repecting the other.

...phew...

Afterthought: What would you think of a bunch of Valley Dudes and Chicks taking to the streets and marching for their rights to like, totally, be respected, ya know and stuff like that. (Ever notice the younger generation says "and such" not "and stuff"? 'Stuff' is a bad words these days.) =)

[color=gold]...

Until you've experienced reverse discrimination like those Firemen have... you just don't have a leg to stand on.

[color=gold]...

As was noted in previous posts by DolphinsFan ... He is hitting it dead on. Stars for DF!

Facism isn't an exclusive term for totalitarian whites only, it's a rainbow term. It's where America is being pushed (not lead.)


[edit on 8·22·09 by DrMattMaddix]

"Someone enlighten me, how does social-democracy = Nazism/Facism?"


Since my first post got completely ignored I will say it again. Nazism/Facism isn't social-democracy it is National-Socialism. Two very different forms of government. And National-Socialism is nothing like what we understand socialism to be. It is also the name they gave themselves and not a name that is new. It is not as chiron613 says, a name we give them to be derogatory towards socialists.

reply to post by Copernicus


Sorry to bring this to you but our Republic die a long time ago when it got prostituted by the federal government.



[edit on 22-8-2009 by marg6043]

Marx originally thought that communism would be the path to socialism. Because of that, it generally was thought as socialism even if it was never actually achieved. Nazism is a slightly more right and more control aligned than communism (centralized control), yet you can see the Nazis didn't call themselves communist even thought the political alignment is not far from each other. You can see how Nazism also carried the same Marxist thought about socialism, which also Nazism never actually achieved.

Nazism (or authoritarian communism), is about control.

Socialism is about ownership. Socialist are not a political party. "Ownership" does not equal "control".

Cheers

[edit on 22-8-2009 by dzonatas]