National Geographic - 9/11 Science and Conspiracy Special 8/31/09

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
I just wanted to add that it has been 19 posts since I asked for evidence of passenger bodies and a crushed plane. Still waiting.....

Look, we're not supposed to degenerate to this kind of bickering.

You're the one pushing the debunkers are sheep who believe the OS line.

I'm trying to be civil, but when I read nonsensical claims my threshold lowers. Sorry for unwarranted rudeness.

This is a good starting point for dispelling a lot of the 9/11 myths that circulate. Recommend reading pertinent pages and checking out links.

www.debunking911.com...

I know sending a 'true believer' to a site with the word debunking in it is like sending a vampire to a Church, but that's all I can come up with on short notice.

Asking for proof there was a crashed plane and dead passengers at the Pentagon is like asking for proof soldiers were killed at Dunkirk. A matter of well documented recorded history now. It's not that hard to find sites with full accounts - with pics - if you look.

Happy hunting.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
I just wanted to add that it has been 19 posts since I asked for evidence of passenger bodies and a crushed plane. Still waiting.....

Look, we're not supposed to degenerate to this kind of bickering.

You're the one pushing the debunkers are sheep who believe the OS line.

I'm trying to be civil, but when I read nonsensical claims my threshold lowers. Sorry for unwarranted rudeness.

What on earth are you crying about? I asked a question. I then pointed out how the simple task of posting the images or whatever here to shut me up never happend. What in that sentence bothers you so much? Which part is so harsh that it hurt your sensibilities? I just wanted to add...I asked a while ago and still...........nada. It was not being nasty or rude or any of the things I am being now. I was pointing out that this "proof" seemed to not be coming. Please tell me just exactly which part hurt your feelings so I can genuinely appologize.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
I asked a question. I then pointed out how the simple task of posting the images or whatever here to shut me up never happend. What in that sentence bothers you so much? Which part is so harsh that it hurt your sensibilities? I just wanted to add...I asked a while ago and still...........nada. It was not being nasty or rude or any of the things I am being now. I was pointing out that this "proof" seemed to not be coming.

Just trying to keep the info flow.

I went to Google typed in "pentagon" and "9/11" got a zillion hits.
When you weave through the inevitable Truther sites, there's loads of stuff. A refined search with key words would narrow it down.

Example:

911review.com...

And found this ATS thread, started 5 years ago, deals with it thoroughly with pics.

And great insight on the current page from member "weedwhacker"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"I believe that in many, many cases, the proponents of a "Conspiracy Theory" involving the various aspects of the events of 9/11 use specific images, only those that support their opinions, and then keep repeating over and over again. I don't understand this mindset. Lots of times, out of context, you may begin to wonder about "Official Stories" (whatever that is supposed to actually mean) but on a closer examination and including ALL of the evidence and information it becomes clear that some people are lying --- or, just so determined to "prove" their pet notions, that they simply toss out anything that contradicts their pre-conceived concepts.

Usually, when tossing, it's with a disparaging reference to the
so-called "Official Story", yet again. Intent? To plant the innuendo that you "can't trust the Government" because that's the credo that works so well, especially when your target audience is predisposed to such thinking already."

M





[edit on 30-8-2009 by mmiichael]

I wonder if this is gonna be a real honest to god documentary or yet another hit piece much like the BBC Conspiracy Files was?

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
I asked a question. I then pointed out how the simple task of posting the images or whatever here to shut me up never happend. What in that sentence bothers you so much? Which part is so harsh that it hurt your sensibilities? I just wanted to add...I asked a while ago and still...........nada. It was not being nasty or rude or any of the things I am being now. I was pointing out that this "proof" seemed to not be coming.

Just trying to keep the info flow.

I went to Google typed in "pentagon" and "9/11" got a zillion hits.
When you weave through the inevitable Truther sites, there's loads of stuff. A refined search with key words would narrow it down.

Example:

911review.com...

Hey thanks a ton, man. I really appreciate you posting these links. I asked for a crushed plane and bodies of passengers. I was told there is a ton of proof out there of such things was I not? And here, you post links that still do not show a crushed plane or the bodies of any passengers.

It seems like a really simple request seeing as how I was told there is tons of this stuff out there. I cannot find any of it. You cannot seem to find any of it. Hmmmmmm.

Originally posted by mmiichael
This is only the case in Truther Fantasy Land. Your website source is lying.

Photographs of the wreckage exist and are online. Not hard to find,

The names of the some of hundreds of Washington area staffers, private citizens, medical support people, who dealt with all this are available.

I'm in perpetual amazement there are adults out there so gullible they fall for these Truther fairy tales.


M

and yet...................

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Hey thanks a ton, man. I really appreciate you posting these links. I asked for a crushed plane and bodies of passengers. I was told there is a ton of proof out there of such things was I not? And here, you post links that still do not show a crushed plane or the bodies of any passengers.

It seems like a really simple request seeing as how I was told there is tons of this stuff out there. I cannot find any of it. You cannot seem to find any of it. Hmmmmmm.

Read what's written on the availability of pics on links provided. Details.

From memory - majority of the mass pushed forward through the body of the plane right into the building. Described as pretty grisly with blood and guts of passengers and Pentagon workers among the crushed wreckage.

Imagine priority was trying to save lives, put out fires, etc. Maybe pretty hairy with concern for fuel explosions, etc. Taking photos for prosperity not exactly a priority one might say. But I'm sure there are pics with torsos, arms and legs strewn all over somewhere. Not in general release.

Assume that will be taken as some attempt at cover-up. Really can't offer much more.


M

Originally posted by mmiichael
Really can't offer much more.


M

Probably the only truthful thing you've written. Seriously, I'm really interested in these pictures you've described above because I can't find them. As said before, if you come across them again please post them.

Originally posted by woodles

Probably the only truthful thing you've written. Seriously, I'm really interested in these pictures you've described above because I can't find them. As said before, if you come across them again please post them.

Well actually I'm a paid government disnformation agent trying to prevent brilliant investigators from getting too close to the real truth.

But our OFFICIAL STORY is there weren't that many pictures as compared to the WTC. The Pentagon is not in the heart of New York City where there are a thousand cameras per block. And there is something called 'National Security.' The US doesn't exactly want to reveal it's vulnerabilities to anyone thinking of attacking the Pentagon again. Remember the WTC was hit twice in less than a decade.

And then there's the issue of very gory image that would not be released under any circumstances.

And then there's the issue that no government is obliged to release what they consider sensitive or security related picture because some guy in his mom's basement running a website or people on a conspiracy forum are suspicious.

No one is obliged to continually keep proving what is known and documented. Forensic and DNA analysis has accounted for the hundred of people, passengers, crew, Pentagon staff, who died in that plane crash.
There is no doubt at all of what happened.

Show me pictures of Michael Jackson's corpse - or I can accuse you of covering up something.

M



[edit on 30-8-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


No you don't. You do not get to cheat and start babbling about descriptions. People can say anything they want. I asked for proof and was told that it was all out there, tons of pictures, all kinds of proof. Now you admit that all you have are some eyewitness accounts?

Photographs of the wreckage exist and are online. Not hard to find

The US doesn't exactly want to reveal it's vulnerabilities to anyone thinking of attacking the Pentagon again. Remember the WTC was hit twice in less than a decade.

And then there's the issue of very gory image that would not be released under any circumstances.

And then there's the issue that no government is obliged to release what they consider sensitive or security related

You 'debunkers' are tripping all over each other with your self contradicting posts.

[edit on 30-8-2009 by K J Gunderson]

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
No you don't. You do not get to cheat and start babbling about descriptions. People can say anything they want. I asked for proof and was told that it was all out there, tons of pictures, all kinds of proof. Now you admit that all you have are some eyewitness accounts?

This gets embarrasingly childish after a while. You are unable to comprehend what I took the trouble to write in the previous message. I linked to the first pictures I found. Also to an ATS thread with more pictures, links, etc You'll actually have to do some reading to find more.

and again

Pentagon not in NYC with cameras everywhere.

A national security concern releasing inside of Pentagon pictures.

No wish to reveal vulnerabilities internationally.

Clearance issues kept photographers from immediately rushing in.

Others more concerned about saving lives not recording events.

They exist, but no released pictures inside the Pentagon walls of smashed airplane parts and dead bodies.

All this should be obvious why.

Not everyone can have exactly what they want.

Throwing a temper tantrum doesn't work.

Grow up.


M

]

[edit on 30-8-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by CameronFox


Oh I"m sure you're right. The tin hatters will now say that National Geographic is part of the conspiracy.
How many people, private companies, magazines, tv shows, etc... are now part of the conspiracy ???

I can't wait to see how the "truthers" will now vilify NG for being part of the ever growing conspiracy of people who involves pretty much everyone but ATS members

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by woodles

Probably the only truthful thing you've written. Seriously, I'm really interested in these pictures you've described above because I can't find them. As said before, if you come across them again please post them.

Well actually I'm a paid government disnformation agent trying to prevent brilliant investigators from getting too close to the real truth.

But our OFFICIAL STORY is there weren't that many pictures as compared to the WTC. The Pentagon is not in the heart of New York City where there are a thousand cameras per block. And there is something called 'National Security.' The US doesn't exactly want to reveal it's vulnerabilities to anyone thinking of attacking the Pentagon again. Remember the WTC was hit twice in less than a decade.

And then there's the issue of very gory image that would not be released under any circumstances.

And then there's the issue that no government is obliged to release what they consider sensitive or security related picture because some guy in his mom's basement running a website or people on a conspiracy forum are suspicious.

No one is obliged to continually keep proving what is known and documented. Forensic and DNA analysis has accounted for the hundred of people, passengers, crew, Pentagon staff, who died in that plane crash.
There is no doubt at all of what happened.

Show me pictures of Michael Jackson's corpse - or I can accuse you of covering up something.

M



[edit on 30-8-2009 by mmiichael]

Where are you hiding the pictures you claim are of the passengers?
You silly government disinformation agent.

Thanks for the heads up. I hope its a Neutral story with reporting the facts and not someone's lopsided opinion.

reply to post by talisman


Something to consider is that if the construction company was in on it, the employees doing the work were in on it, the owner was in on it, the inspectors were in on it... etc.. etc.. etc..

I think the problem is that the list of people, "in on it" is now never ending. Every time one little bit of information gets questionable, another group of people get added to the most vast and wide ranging conspiracy ever and nobody involved has mentioned one word about it....seems unlikely.

A good rule to go by:
The larger the perceived conspiracy, the less likely it is true.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


The only photos released of bodies was at the Moussaoui trial

Be warned - this is disturbing

Pentagon




www.vaed.uscourts.gov...






Satisfied ?

I imagine you will find some stupid reason why this cant be true.....

posted by K J Gunderson
I just wanted to add that it has been 19 posts since I asked for evidence of passenger bodies and a crushed plane. Still waiting.....

posted by K J Gunderson
I asked a question. I then pointed out how the simple task of posting the images or whatever here to shut me up never happend. What in that sentence bothers you so much? Which part is so harsh that it hurt your sensibilities? I just wanted to add...I asked a while ago and still...........nada. It was not being nasty or rude or any of the things I am being now. I was pointing out that this "proof" seemed to not be coming.

posted by mmiichael

Just trying to keep the info flow.

So where are the passenger bodies K J Gunderson asked you nicely for?

Is that too much to ask?

You pseudoskeptics told us there were photos of passengers strapped into seats and then did not produce one single photo. You couldn't even produce one seat without a passenger.

Then you tried to BS us with photos of dead Pentagon personnel and claimed they were passengers. One didn't even have his shirt singed from the incredible fires.

You claim the DNA is proof even though the DNA chain of evidence is very suspicious.

Then you government loyalists tell us how much incredible heat was inside the Pentagon, and then you expect us to believe all that fragile DNA survived that heat.

So where are the photos of passengers K J Gunderson asked you for?

These are not passengers and that thread you pointed us to did not show any passengers either.

Graphic image - Pentagon personnel killed by explosions inside Pentagon

posted by K J Gunderson
No you don't. You do not get to cheat and start babbling about descriptions. People can say anything they want. I asked for proof and was told that it was all out there, tons of pictures, all kinds of proof. Now you admit that all you have are some eyewitness accounts?

posted by mmiichael
This gets embarrasingly childish after a while.

Pentagon not in NYC with cameras everywhere.

A national security concern releasing inside of Pentagon pictures.

No wish to reveal vulnerabilities internationally.

Clearance issues kept photographers from immediately rushing in.

Others more concerned about saving lives not recording events.

They exist, but no released pictures inside the Pentagon walls of smashed airplane parts and dead bodies.

Yes embarrassingly childish. Yet the Pentagon did release this photo of Pentagon personnel allegedly inside the Pentagon, and also thedman's photos which are also Pentagon personnel, with not the teeniest proof that they are passengers or crew.

So are you now claiming these photos were taken somewhere else besides the Pentagon, perhaps Italy; because the Pentagon is too security conscious to release photos of the Pentagon interior?

Graphic image - Pentagon personnel killed by explosions inside Pentagon

There are security cameras all over the Pentagon interior; in every hallway. Redundant cameras feeding to hard drive storage down in the basement security room.



[edit on 8/30/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by bsbray11

Not according to what I am reading, and I notice you aren't making any effort to defend the parts of his work I was talking specifically about.

Kinda hard to do when you don't provide a link to what you're talking about. Or am I expected to guess which one of the multitude of papers that he's written you're talking about?

He actually believed there were large charges of some kind set within the core structure on at least 3 separate floors, the mechanical floors and the base of the towers. But don't take my word for it, look up his posts yourself. Not that it matters what his opinion is anyway if you are debating facts and data.

Interesting. I guess he ignores the FACT that there are no large blasts to go along with these large charges also? Anyways, I was under the impression that he was more of a thermite guy. IIRC him stating somewhere that he believed that there could have been thermite cutters on horizontal floor beams in the core, several floors below the impact floors that would initiate the whole collapse. Then he says, again IIRC, that the collapse would have gone as seen. That's also where I've gotten the impression that he agrees with Bazant, etc.

Of greatest interest, this whole scenario at least makes some sense, and that he's attempting to conform to reality in 3 ways. 1-He realizes that there were no giant blasts to acount for cutter charges, so I don't remember seeing him push it. 2-He also realizes that the whole thermite cutting horizontally is also a non-starter, so he switches to cutting the floor beams. Which actually makes some sense IMHO, since it would accomplish core column buckling through long unbraced lengths. 3- He also realizes that timing these thermite devices aren't as precise as typical RDX based cutter charges, and his theory didn't rely on precise timing. Basically, from what I could glean, once enough core columns are unbraced, it goes.

Several non-profit organizations with the support of hundreds of engineers, pilots, etc., all coming together and forming on their own to simply request a more serious investigation, is a little more than nothing.

Well, the NG special would indicate that it is indeed nothing. Rather, it'll ridicule 9/11 CTerz. And rightfully so.

I think you should just stop posting

I'll take it under advisement. But I just made a new thread outlining just why some reality should be injected into all the young minds that have been taken in.

Originally posted by SPreston
Yet the Pentagon did release this photo of Pentagon personnel allegedly inside the Pentagon, and also thedman's photos which are also Pentagon personnel, with not the teeniest proof that they are passengers or crew.

So are you now claiming these photos were taken somewhere else besides the Pentagon, perhaps Italy; because the Pentagon is too security conscious to release photos of the Pentagon interior?

There are security cameras all over the Pentagon interior; in every hallway. Redundant cameras feeding to hard drive storage down in the basement security room.

You know what? I'm not an expert on what pictures were taken at the Pentagon on 9/11 and what's avaiable. I was sick the day we were debriefed on that.

I kinda imagine an airplane smashing into one side knocked out power in some sections. And a lot of chaos with few thinking about recording it all for posterity.

But perpetual denial will continue for some. Is there any point in discussing math with people who have convinced themselves 2 + 2 = 5?
And get angry when you point out the error?

What's the currently popular coverup theory? They knocked down the light poles and put one through that cab-drivers windshield? That's a really good one.

Did they blow up the Pentagon from inside?

I get the scary feeling I'm often not just hearing from kids on all this. But men in their 30s, 40s, 50s.

You guys should get out more.


M


[edit on 30-8-2009 by mmiichael]