A question for atheists and theists/deists

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Because, while there are black and white examples, there are grey ones. And the religious connotations never clarify what is ok and what isn't.

Let's say a young boy steals a loaf of bread for his family who are starving. Should his soul be denied from religious rapture?

What if someone steals a very precious and sentimental item of yours. It's gone for years. Your children realise it's now in someone else's possession. And, years later,they steal it back. Is that wrong?

What if your family is held at gunpoint by a burglar. You VanDamme him and break his neck and kill him. You feel no remorse, you feel happy that your family is safe from harm. Do you go to a religious hell?

That's what I'm getting at. There are too many subjective instances where "Thou shall not kill" is just wrong. And if it IS ok in certain circumstances, where are they documented?

No God has come forward and told me the exception list.




[edit on 20-8-2009 by noonebutme]

reply to post by Icon_xof


The only reason in would not matter is if you believe that truth is of relatively little importance.

Peace,
Daniel

Originally posted by LiveForever8
reply to post by Icon_xof

 

It matters because millions have died and are still dying because of religion.
Prejudice.
Wars.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Its also an insult to the majesty and brilliance of science.

Put down your bible and pick up a science encyclopedia

Good day!

well, yes a lot of people died in the name of god,
but a lot of people died in a name of science (a lack of god)

the blame is the same

the question is not about one being religious,
the question is about one being stupid...

how many people scientists killed?




[edit on 20-8-2009 by donhuangenaro]

reply to post by Icon_xof


Also, without trying to be discourteous, I think the OP is a perfect example of what Susan Jacoby calls The Age of American Unreason. The truth of two claims are not necessarily equidistant from one another. I'm not sure this is what you are doing, but you seem to be implying that both sides of the theism debate are fine and dandy as long as we can be civil.

Well, when there are two polar opposite truth claims, one is likely to be more true than another. Whether a certain belief is comforting to a person or not has little or nothing to do with its truth value. The debate is one in search of truth (at least for most atheists) rather than in search of comfort and assurance.

Peace,
Daniel

Reply to post by noonebutme

There are other options in all these instances.

With a starving family, there are always organizations donating if you canot find a job.

With a thief or burglary, why must it be violence? Does that heirloom mean as much as that thiefs life? Surely not...

Weigh the options...that is why we have these beautiful minds. Not so that we can be like a wild beast and act on instinct alone.


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The way I see it is every human on this planet is gonna reach an age where they will start to question everything and believe in their own thing and do what they want.. so why the need for religion? To me it takes away peoples rights to chose for themselves and construct their own beliefs about what they see around them. If someone wants to believe in what you believe in then so be it, but there is no need to force people into it and make money out of it.

Reply to post by pdpayne0418

In search of truth? About the Creator?

That is nothing more than a waste of time. The truth will come when your days have ended. That is it. The truth is that we'll never know the truth while alive.

Why not instead devote more time to something more science worthy, like developing more efficient methods for using bacteria and fungi to create diesel fuel...?


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Reply to post by JustLikeSuperman

Whoa friend! Perhaps you have mistaken the loosely used term "religion" for modern church.

I force my beliefs upon no one. I only share them if they are willing to listen. If they have ears, let them hear.

Also, I have never once profited from my religion. Nor do I see that as a goal of my personal belief...


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reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Perhaps i have but that doesn't change the fact that there are people out there who do force it upon people and make money out of it

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by pdpayne0418

 

In search of truth? About the Creator?

That is nothing more than a waste of time. The truth will come when your days have ended. That is it. The truth is that we'll never know the truth while alive.

Why not instead devote more time to something more science worthy, like developing more efficient methods for using bacteria and fungi to create diesel fuel...?

 

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I think you missed the entire point of my post - I am arguing from an atheist perspective, and I agree with your last paragraph.

Peace,
Daniel

I was brought up to be a catholic, everyone in my family is a catholic. Now I am 20 years old and i remember a few years ago thinking why the hell am i a catholic? Why didn't anyone ask me what I wanted? Why didn't I get given the chance to become old enough and decide for myself?

Reply to post by JustLikeSuperman

True. I cannot deny human nature.

So why then do I feel so guilty when my religion seems so intolerable to so many? Is it at all fair to place a judgment on the whole group? Simply becuz I have nothing other to refer to myself as?

It is not religions fault. It is the faults of man. They have used religion as a cloak. That does not affect those exploiting religion, it only affects the true followers who are given that judgment by default.

Atheists do not have that problem. An atheist is an atheist. How does one exploit atheism???


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Reply to post by pdpayne0418

I am sorry friend. I blame it on it being 5:50 in the morning. Seeing as how I am human, I don't want to own up to my mistakes!


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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by pdpayne0418

 

I am sorry friend. I blame it on it being 5:50 in the morning. Seeing as how I am human, I don't want to own up to my mistakes!

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

No worries, mate. When I go back and read my own posts, I always come to the conclusion that I could have worded my posts better in order to be more clear.

Peace,
Daniel

In my opinion it is the religious people who start 99% of these so-called wars. It is they that try and convert everyone else to their point of view. It is they who cannot stand that there are non-believers.

This seems to be true both for Christians and Muslims but less so for other religions.

As a simple example of what I am saying, just compare radio and tv broadcasts. How many evangelists are there on tv and radio? Hundreds. How many atheists do you find broadcasting? Any? There may be one somewhere, but the obvious answer is that religious people are in your face with their message 24/7.

It just gets annoying. Atheists enter the war almost exclusively in defense against the onslaught.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by JustLikeSuperman

 

True. I cannot deny human nature.

So why then do I feel so guilty when my religion seems so intolerable to so many? Is it at all fair to place a judgment on the whole group? Simply becuz I have nothing other to refer to myself as?

It is not religions fault. It is the faults of man. They have used religion as a cloak. That does not affect those exploiting religion, it only affects the true followers who are given that judgment by default.
You just cant corrupt something that is totally, unquestionably based on fact and therefore can't be twisted to justify evil under the guise of being the will of a non existent supernatural being, that's will is supremely good.
Atheists do not have that problem. An atheist is an atheist. How does one exploit atheism???

 

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reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Weighting the options is always the best 'option' to choose....when you have hindsight or have the time to properly evaluate them.

But in the mock and, albeit extreme, examples I mentioned, you don't have time to thing - you react. You do what you need to survive, which contradict or blur the archaic regulations supposedly handed down by some God.

All I'm saying is that I prefer to live my life based on my own morals and values which I arrived at using common sense, logic and rational thinking.

Not ones as teh result of reading ancient texts and tomes that were written back when people thought sacrificing animals helped the lands grow fertile or prevented natural disasters.

I'm not saying it's rubbish or that people shouldn't believe in that - if they want to, go ahead. I just don't want those beliefs to hinder or impact on my life. That's all.

Reply to post by noonebutme

There are millions of believers that are like me. We do not all use religion as a weapon of hindrance and intolerance.

Like I have said earlier, if I walk down the street I will undoubtedly pass an atheist and not even realise it. Likewise, I would do the same if it were a religious man.

More often than not, we just live our lives. There are those few in EVERY group that will have the in your face I'm right you're wrong attitude. That's just facts...

As far as religion becoming a hindrance in your own personal life, would you care to elaborate? Or is it again just the fantics that are using religion, and not practicing it.

There is a big difference in believing and practicing. Just because one claims to be christian doesn't mean they practice christianity. It may just mean that they believed Jesus Christ was the Son of the Creator.

If you have ever meet a true follower of the faith, you would know within minutes.

A little off topic, but I can see auras. I have met a lot of people who have the beginning of a halo around their crown and when asked were athiests. Likewise, I have met a lot of others who claim to be christian and had very dark auras. Does this mean athiesm is better than xtianity? Absolutely not.

Belief and disbelief is a very personal thing. We all have the right to think for ourselves, it's just a matter of exercising that right.

After one has made up their own mind, it is easy to see that others will not come to the same conclusion as oneself.

'He who has hears, let him hear.'
My interpretation - he who wants to listen, let him hear.
The church's interpretation - 'All humans have ears! Spread the word to everyone!!'


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In the illusion of freedom we fight and become what we are trying destroy. Belief is a Heavy sword to carry. Our flag, the beautiful honor of Heroism covers the nakedness of our sacrifices that are signed in exhibitions of bloodshed. An allegiance of Misguided men guided by that source which we derive self worth that gives value to folded flags. With Silent screams unheard we march as soldiers aiding the installation of a new nation with precision it's creation thrives amidst division powered by the decision to pay the beast and false prophet of revelations our hard earned illusion of money that we work so hard for. We are a Nation oppressed, misdirected, and enslaved by our own voice. Blinded and hungry to fill our bellies with the sweet taste of blood sweat and tears.

It is like the Sound of Truth , Housed in a prison of Echo's, that gives birth to a message. muffled whispers in the ears of Orphans. Their foreign thoughts are distorted and useless. They become lost and follow their new parents clothed in blood.

reply to post by Project In Vitro


Gunning for poet laureate there are we?